Talk:Nigeria

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Contents

[edit] History Section Glosses over Post Independence History

The History section jumps from the colonial period the the present with a vague gloss-over that fails to even mention the Republic of Biafra:

"Ethnic and religious tensions following independence led to the Nigerian Civil War and the start of intermit democractic and military rule that did not end until 1999, when the democratic republic was permanently re-established with the election of Olusegun Obasanjo as its current president. Recently, supporters of Obasanjo had tried and failed to extend term limits following rejection by the national assembly. New elections are set for 2007."

Note typo here and propagandistic "permanently re-established" (we don't know if it's permanent) as well.

One other note -- the colonial period is barely touched on in this piece. It's very peculiar in that regard, almost as though that very large and important subject is off-limits in Nigerian discussions.


=== I also find that baffling. Why is there so little mention of the colonial period? Cami Solomon (talk) 21:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

In the article, there are years in which there is no AD or BC clarifier. Fllmtlchcb 04:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

POOPcitations for this but I'm sure someone else will back it up. 86.138.189.255 02:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Educational System

"The 3-3-6 secondary year system has many faults and this can be seen when children of the senior secondary schools are applying to overseas schools especially England."(Chigwell School overseas student from Nigeria).

Eh? "Many faults" like what, exactly? The "3-3-6 secondary year system"? Look, it's 6-3-3-4: six years of primary education, three years of junior secondary education, three years of senior secondary education, and four years of tertiary education. Many schools are underfunded and have inadequate facilities, yet continue to churn out a sufficient number of bright and capable students as to overwhelm the nation's most selective universities, which has led to an explosion in private tertiary institutions. (This is from personal observation and experience.)

I think that piece needs to go. 72.229.138.234 03:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)Oluseyi

Also what about a discussion on the proposed Public-Private-Partnership for unity schools in the country?! (Tripol)

[edit] Sport other than football?

Surely Nigerians play some sport other than football. I think it's strange that the entire "sports in nigeria" section covers only its World Cup history. Borisblue 02:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foriegn relations of Nigeria mess

The foreign relations section smacks of original research, with such uncited phrases like "although the government rejects this..." etc. Also, it needs to be cleaned-up. The spaces are missing between sentences.--Thomas.macmillan 16:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on both counts, unfortunately I have little information on sports. when i attempt to overhaul most of the page upon i return from Wikibreak in a few weeks i will re-write the foreign relations section which is completely inadequate, not to mention that it doesnt conform to NPOV. --gozar 20:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe the wikipia encyclopedia should be a compedium of knowledge.If the foreign relations is a "mess" in your opinion,you should be courteous enough "re-write" gramatically without deleting facts.You just cannot pretend to know all the facts there is about the foreign relations disposition of Nigeria since 1960.Nigeria is a geographical area that came it being in 1914.Since then,it's history,composition, experience and rightly or wrongly a sense of responsibility to the black race have played a role in fashioning her foreign policy.It is therefore not by accident that Nigeria took certain predictable positions on African issues.Some of the quoted works were written by credible authors on African renaissance who actually went to Nigeria and researched.The most factual information is not always on the internet.You might have to do some real study using real books in your local library if you are truly concerned about "re-writing the mess".But, because you are writing directly into a globally accessible encyclopedia not just your own personal website,you must constrain yourself to write historical facts not imagination of what you think.I believe you are doing a noble thing here when you bring out facts for easy internet accessibility about the country of Nigeria and not writing your own fictional fantasy. So that the Wikipia encyclopedia would remain helpful to those who wish to learn about Nigeria's foreign policy and its monumental achievements since 1960.Perhaps Nigeria had faultered in other endevours like its notoriety for 419 fraud,ethnic & religious intolerance,corruption of its politicians,generally increasing poverty,economic woes etc,etc,etc. Nigeria is way bigger than just the negative vices that some are hell bent on making her solely stand for.Nigeria also did achieve a lot of positive successes especially helping to move OAU in the direction of supporting independence struggles in Africa.Ofcourse,the Nigerian leaders at the time understandably denied some of its well documented anti-colonial activities beyond her borders because her economic interest favoured avoiding a confrontation with the western nations that supported some of the very minority regimes Nigeria so desperately sought to help overthrow.Therefore,until you are able to do your own highly publicised credible work on modern Nigeria and the role of its foreign policy.Your personal view point of "mess" is just what it is YOUR OPINION.Please,also stop banning other people's web name if they donot necessarily share your opinion. Cheers Ibadan pikin. 10-12-06

Part of the problem is that this section fails to provide specific citations for claims (which is odd for some of the less contentious statements), mixes fact and opinion (e.g., various claims for the impact of actions taken by the Nigerian gov't), and fails to acknowledge different views. In other words, even if it was ultimately a reasonably objective, balanced account, the casual reader would have no way of knowing that - and the tone would suggest otherwise. Another part of the problem is that there are way too many typos - it looks like someone went on a typing frenzy and couldn't be bothered to edit what they wrote. Besides its rather jumbled formatting, the list of references at the end of this subsection doesn't tell the reader what they are cited for, and the list has some notable omissions. There's a desperate need for footnotes. Some quotes on opposing views would help, too. Ratufa 21:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Family

A bit of history on this dispute, perhaps ? North or South ? Which tribe ? Wizzy…☎ 07:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The year 2000 was brought in with the heir of Nkeiru Ugwoaba. The young princess currently resides and attends her future education in the United States but contributes and accepts full responsibilities to her royal duties while serving her countryItalic text

[edit] Official Languages

I updated the "official languages" info, (which only listed English). Actually, besides English, Nigeria's official languages include Edo, Efik, Adamawa Fulfulde, Hausa, Idoma, Igbo, Central Kanuri and Yoruba. Source: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=NG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.86.120.67 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 29 October 2006

I see someone took out my edit on Nigeria's official language in which I (correctly) pointed out that Nigeria has a number of official, national languages. I included an authoritative source, as well (see above). This is disappointing, as Wikipedia continues to bill itself as a "reference" source, when in fact it does nothing more than spread ignorance and misinformation across the Web--especially when it rejects fact-checking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.86.120.67 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 30 October 2006
English is the official language of Nigeria.[1] [2].The source referenced above (Ethnologue) lists "National or official languages". Of languages spoken in Nigeria, Hausa, Yoruba, Ibo, Fulani are the four main languages spoken by ~2/3 of the population. Ethnologue's definition: "National or official languages. National languages are those languages spoken by a large portion of the population of a nation. Official languages are those that have been designated as such by an official body."[3] — ERcheck (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Please read the Constitution of Nigeria: "Business of the National Assembly shall be conducted in English, and in Hausa, Ibo and Yoruba when adequate arrangements have been made therefor".

What's the status of Ijoid languages in Nigeria? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.46.112 (talk) 09:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sultan

Given the events of the last few days, we need to work on documenting the office of the Sultan of Sokoto and personalities related to it. I am not in Nigeria and don't have access to documents, but I am available if anyone can take the lead. Please drop me an email from my User page. ----iFaqeer 03:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joke?

The article that is supposed to be about the country Nigeria has been replaced with an article about a person. What has happened to the article that was there last tuesday? I suppose that this is some sort of joke. Can this please be corrected? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.212.249.58 (talk) 10:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Twinning

I posted the original information regarding Yorubas having the highest twinning rate in the world. It has ended up under 'entertainment'. It belongs under 'ethnic groups' as an aside, or in the general introduction. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.22.21.50 (talk) 02:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Cities- Is the list really too long?

Ratufa, I wonder if you didnt know Nigeria was a very populous place? So where do you expect 150 million people would live? Inside a single city or else they should live in the forest or ocean abi?Please if you are not a Nigerian (a fat lie) but a roving geographer.You should then go to Indian,Brazil,US,Pakistan,China,Japan,Bangladesh page and tell them that their cities are too many.Also remember to add that you are not from their country.

Despite a request that I made on Ilesa baby's talk to begin a discussion here rather than continuing to extend the list of cities, she instead reverted, including reverting a subsequent addition on government structure. This is disruption and I am treating it as such. You are all encouraged to lay out your viewpoints on this, but I won't allow the addition of peacock language and reversion of good content to stand. - BanyanTree 21:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 Banyan tree,

Please who are you to determine what stands and what doesnt? Are you Obasanjo, Abacha or Babangida? You see what i mean by the larger than life intolerant military mentality that have continued to ruin our country Nigeria? You want to highlight your own city,but others have no right to highlight other key cities in Nigeria.Just ask yourself what is it i hate so much about Ilesa that i can't stand to see it.Well,you may not like Yoruba,TOO BAD! We are the a good 25% of Nigeria.So you can very much say you dont like Nigeria.Look,you can block,ban,unban,unblock or do as you please on Ilesa Baby,it wont solve the problem.Unless you can convince me here that Ilesa is not a city in Nigeria or does not qualify as one using your own criteria.I might listen to your criteria if it is plausible.Until you do that,if delete my dear town,any day or ANYTIME i come on this page ,(Even in 100years time)i shall put Ilesa back as a sacred Yoruba city that it is.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.80.74.66 (talk • contribs)

IlesaBaby, presumbably we'll find out Nigeria's population very soon, but no matter how big it is in absolute terms, the question for the short list of cities is their relative size compared to each other. If we want to make a list of the top 12 cities of India, I'd generally look for a much bigger population than I would in compiling a list of the top 12 cities of Australia. Whether Nigeria has 150 million people or a 100 million people, when it comes to population, what should matter for a list of key cities is how the various cities compare to each other.
To me, the main question comes down the purpose of having a list of cities on the main page if there is already a link to a much longer list right at the top of this list. As I see it, it is to give the casual non-Nigerian reader (say, some undergrad student, a journalist looking for a quick summary, would-be tourists, etc.,) a snapshot of the diversity of urban Nigeria. This short list only needs to mention about a dozen representative, large cities. Wikipedia asks contributors to aim for a neutral point of view, so what criteria should be used in drawing up such a list? We could look to size, regional representation, function, history, etc. We could be guided by outside sources, like government publications, tourism guides, etc. that have been published. We could look at what cities have airports (okay, not quite as many right now, but still), which cities are on major highways, etc. Guided by those sorts of reasonably objective criteria, people can discuss here the merits of adding, say, Calabar or Kano or Enugu, and then play around with a brief description (remembering that there's already a link to a longer description), until a brief entry is reasonable enough that nobody can be bothered to revise it anymore. Or someone can just add an entry, and watch as others edit that new entry, hopefully adding a short comment explaining why they've changed it. Somebody added Calabar, and nobody has thought it should be deleted - revised, yes; removed, no.
Not all country descriptions on Wikipedia even have a list of key cities. I can see that a representative list of cities would be valuable for Nigeria, especially since its a big country yet many non-Nigerians can only name Lagos, and maybe Abuja. Few, maybe even in Nigeria itself, have a real respect for the diversity and history of urban Nigeria. But to be useful, the brief descriptions have to reasonably factual and accurate. Calling x place "serene" or "crime-free" doesn't meet those criteria, especially when the latter is demonstrably false. If you think the main Nigeria page should mention Osun-Osogbo Sacred Grove, the UNESCO World Heritage Site ( see http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1118 ), fine, but that has nothing to do with a key Nigeria cities, anymore than Stonehenge should show up on a list of key cities of the UK.
And, just for the record, I've been to most of the countries you've listed. Some of my favorite cities in India are not places I would ever put on a short list of India's key cities. And Sanchi might be sacred to Buddhism, but it definitely isn't one of India's key cities now. There's no insult in not being big. The point of the list of cities is to inform, not to praise or insult or promote. Very flattered that you apparently think I'm Nigerian, but I unfortunately cannot accept the compliment. 206.113.98.48 23:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Gozar, while I admire the attempt to find an elegant solution the cities list, I see a few problems with the new text. One, it misses the fact that urbanization in what is now Nigeria is at once very ancient and in some cases suprisingly recent, driven by outside forces. Two, it gets us back into the issue of absolute numbers; nobody knows the exact population of any city in Nigeria, but I would shocked if only six cities were over a million (Abuja, for one, must to be over a million now - I have been told 2 million, but that seems too high, unless that's for the whole FCT). Related to that, Lagos must be least 12 million, if not much more (depends on the boundary); where does the figure 8 million come from? Three, the rate and nature of urbanization appears to be rather uneven - I would not call Lokoja "urban" in anything but a purely numerical sense. More generally, my guess is, most readers won't bother with reading the individual city entries, and certainly won't bother to compare them. The original city list, as I saw it anyway, was a kind of cheat-sheet for those who just want to read the main page on Nigeria. Ratufa 01:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The source i used for the figures is here, admittedly i probably should have delved deeper into the stats but i thought the link to the list would sufficiently provide your cheat sheet and allow users to find the information required. If a 'cheat sheet' is desirable, the city list linked to on this page could certainly be improved significantly.

would the current format function so long as the population data is updated? my reasoning was that the current version would put an end to constant edits of city figures by limiting the scope in accordance with population size; there also appear to be few country pages that maintain a large, bulleted list of cities, even highly urbanised ones like India and the PRC, both of which are featured articles. --gozar 20:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

ive made another attempt at a resolution, note that i've allowed for two different links, the first of which supports my original edits. Note, however, that the lists disinguish between "urban area" population and "city proper", with "urban area" tending to have a much larger population. For instance, based on city proper, Lagos is the largest city in sub-Saharan Africa but for the entire urban area Cairo is much larger. I admit that this could lead to confusion but i believe linking to both sources makes a situation that is neccessarily unclear somewhat acceptable. additional discussion is encouraged on this matter.--gozar 18:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scammers?

Is it worth noting that the majority of international scammers come from Nigeria? Or how about that they openly train people scam in Nigeria? It is also believed that the government supports it. Just some ideas. Crud3w4re 08:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I second this. 419 and other 'advance fee ' type frauds have long known to be originating from Nigeria, making it a multimillion dollar, global scam. I think it deserves mention. 192.206.151.130 16:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

No! Absolutely No!!! Why should a whole country of more than 140 million be stigmatised with an "international scammers" image that is the result of the activities of no more than a few thousand? Does a few thousand Nigerians engaging in an activity make it a national "pastime" worthy of special mention? I have no doubts that it is a major problem, made worse by our recent history with corruption in high places (for which a war has been going on and impact being felt). But to give it a special place on this pages?? Absolutely not supported. And, yes, I am a Nigerian and I feel very strongly about this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.46.241.40 (talk) 19:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


i agree yes it's true but it doesn't have 2 be published! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.0.42 (talk) 01:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Health Workers and Health issues

I know that one of the issues facing Nigeria is the brain drain from health workers leaving for richer nations, but it's not mentioned. As this is the central issue in my Model UN course, I'd appreciate any help I can get on the issue. 68.239.1.220 03:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You are right.Nigeria experiences brain drain in almost all fields of endevour.Infact, many Nigerian university Professors have had to move not just to Europe or America,but to other middle eastern and African countries. The case here is not just pay as many simply imagine.It is a combination of several factors from an absent proper work environment,job satisfaction,under employment to the policy that many states in Nigeria operate an apartheid like discriminatory policy against people from other regions or a minority religion or ethnic group.To understand the Nigerian brain drain phenomenon is to first understand that there is truely no such thing as "Nigerians" in the same sense as we say French ,English,Americans or Isrealis.Nigerians means an array of explicitly distinct peoples who live in the area called Nigeria by the British colonial government.These different peoples which can be likened as Americans,Saudis and Isrealis mixed up in one volatile country fiercely and many times violently compete for Federal resources. So for you to truely understand the underlining reason for the Nigerian brain drain is to truely understand the Nigerian quagmire.The reason for the anger fuelling the Niger Delta crisis over sharing of oil resources,why a Nigeria census can never truely reflect the real figure because people need to inflate their population to keep a lion share of the Federal resources and why the periodic sectarian violence is a recurring decimal in Nigeria.

What the hell are you talking about? Nigeria is a country. The inhabitants of Nigeria are Nigerian. That is their nationality. Please stop posting stupid messages on this forum.

  • hey guys, guys, since much of the info discussed in the "health issues" heading is related to information in "demographics", perhaps more closely than to "societal issues", id like to know what people think of moving the "health issues" section to its own page (i.e. Health issues in Nigeria. Some of the information discussed above (if sources can be found) might be added and a link could be inserted into the "demographics" section for the new page. If no one poses objections i may go ahead and accomplish this in the near future.--gozar 16:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 419 email/fax scams

According to this article in the New Yorker, 419 scams are not only a flourishing business ( for a rather small % of the country's population ), but openly tolerated. The Nigernian government has for years blamed the "mark" or victim of the scam; one government official said that there would be no possibility of this type of scam if there were no wealthy and immoral westerners seeking huge, easy fortunes. I believe this is notable because of the billions of emails that have crossed the globe ( what editor hasn't deleted several of them? ), the fact that Nigeria has a law in their criminal code specific to this type of scam, and that the government is complacent - not one 419 scammer is behind bars. FireWeed 19:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

To some Nigerians, 419 fraud is just a tax on those who underestimate them. It's a different cultural attitude. I think the government official you quote reflects a widespread viewpoint, that you can't scam an honest person. The Nigerian confidence trickster understands greed and how to manipulate it; one could respect their cleverness if used for legitimate means.
Bear in mind on the other hand that Nigerians are absolutely intolerant about direct theft, and have an attitude towards those who steal which makes western politicians chasing the law-and-order vote seem like wimps.
By the way, the statement 'not one 419 scammer is behind bars' is contradicted by one of the references used in the article. Rexparry sydney 04:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Important note

Please: Immediately revert ANY changes that remove the 419 section - People who revert the section may be scammers who do not wish to see the bottom line disappear. WhisperToMe 04:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Tsadori removed the section soon after I inserted it [4] - I reverted Tsadori's edits. I do not believe Tsadori is a scammer, but I harshly criticize the removal. WhisperToMe 04:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The neutrality of this "opinion" is suspect and should be disregarded. While important, this is not relevant for a country page especially under the Economy section. This information is adequately covered under Advance Fee Fraud article and, in keeping with Wikipedia's policy on ALL other country and city pages, cannot be included in this article. Ajisekanla (talk) 15:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{editprotected}}

Under the Issues Section near the bottom in the section discussing the Miss World location change it talks about the women and "childre" that died....should be children...

Done. Thanks for pointing that out. Picaroon 21:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cuisine

If anyone else copies and pastes that trivia item from the BBC about the Abuja dogmeat restaurant as encyclopedic coverage of Nigeria's cuisine it'll be reverted. Can someone please do a proper overview! Rexparry sydney 23:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I found that there are already plenty of articles on Nigerian dishes in Wikipedia which could be linked and it only took a few minutes to start a section. I hope a proper Nigerian cook can improve it.

Rexparry sydney 00:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of Government and Politics section.

As an American, I can't help sense a certain hostility in the tone of this section. In particular the last two sentences of the third paragraph draw conclusions about the merit of Nigeria having a Democracy at all, and makes a remark about minority vs. majority rights in American democracy.

Is there a feeling in Nigeria that Democracy is not an appropriate form of government? If so, then this section could be fleshed out with discussions of the political movements involved and provide references.

Does the last sentence about America have any relevance to an article about Nigerian Government and Politics? If so then it would probably benefit from being fleshed out more so that persons like myself could follow the logic.

2verb 23:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the article is in pretty bad condition. I've tried to rectify some of the things you pointed out about the politics and government section. Feel free to be bold and remove information that should have a citation that doesn't, and to try to remove spin from sourced items to make the compliant with the NPOV policy. Picaroon 23:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be very educational for most Westerners to have the benefit of some African viewpoints on democracy, and I hope that some Nigerian writers will oblige. (A starting point might be Fela Kuti's song 'Democrazy — demonstration of craziness'). The nostalgia that exists in some parts of Africa for former military dictatorships and one-party states is quite understandable, and some of those regimes better reflected the population's wishes than elected governments in multiparty states. For instance in the early 1970s The Guardian commented that Kaunda's one party state was more democratically representative of Zambians than the then UK government was respresentative of the British. It may have all ended in tears, but it was undeniably what the people wanted at the time. However, the subject is too big and too pan-African for a section within the Nigeria article -- it needs an article on 'Democracy in SubSaharan Africa', warts and all. Rexparry sydney 00:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, although it would not just be educational for westerners. The idea extends outside of Africa though. A Serbian I know feels nostalgic for what outsiders referred to as a police state. So in essence, you need an article titled something like "Views of Democracy" with appropriate subsections. 2verb 03:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism?

I'm pretty sure somebody is correcting bits of this as I speak, but somebody is vandalizing small portions of this page. For instance, a few minutes ago in the fact sidebar Nigeria's economy was listed as being 'communism,' which is incorrect. This has since been changed, although the new label of 'democracy' does not match up with older edits. Also, the state motto has been vandalized (the word 'Obey' has been changed to the word 'disobey'), and the capital, which is really Abuja, has been changed to read 'Samai.' I do not have an account and do not really understand how to revert to an older edit of the page without messing anything up, so if somebody who is watching this sees this, I think that the edit of 18:04, 31 March 2007 or the one directly before it is probably the most recent correct edit. Um. Thank you. 68.231.76.101 00:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC) Jo

It's been fixed. In the future, you can check the page history to see where it was vandalized. Then, click the revision before the vandalism, edit that version of the page, and save it. That's called a revert, and will remove then vandalism. Picaroon 02:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elections

Well, the general elections are coming up in a few days. Whether or not there is an influx of vandalism, there is sure going to be a lot of updating to do. Picaroon 00:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Environment

Wikipedia lacks articles on Nigerian environment. There is an article on environmental issus but for Niger Delta only. There is a little bit on environmental degradation but without references. I have started a section headed Environment following Geography, with the environmental degradation item moved there and edited, it needs referenced material added on urban environmental problems, deforestation, soil degradation, water issues, desertification, etc, with a view to creating a nucleus for a separate main article. I hope this is OK. Rexparry sydney 00:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The last fifty edits suggests that you and I are the only ones actively improving this article. I think we can assume a change is fine until and unless the other person gets up in arms about it ;). Anyways, yeah that sounds reasonable, because the Delta certainly can't be the only place with noteworthy environmental problems. Picaroon 02:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] nigeria foriegn debt

Nigeria no more own foriegn debts as described in the pages, please update pages to reflect this foreign debts have been settled. and not in the process of been settled . the debts have been settled —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.11.204.51 (talk) 13:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Small business in Nigeria

What are some Small business Ideas that are currently viable, beneficial and profitable in Nigeria? (Neutrall 20:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC))

On economy section, please mention that Nigeria is the third largest economy in Africa, and has been grouped by Goldman Sachs in the N-11(Next eleven economies) and is estimated to be on the top 20 world economies by 2025.

[edit] Religion in Nigeria

The main article Religion in Nigeria lacks the details on minor religions which hvae been added to the section 'Religion' in this article. The section here is supposed to be a summary for the main article, I propose moving the details of the minority religions there. In any case some of them have so few adherents that they are not notable enough to warrant mention in the country article. Rexparry sydney 00:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The minority religions in Nigeria on this page, I believe is a very brief skim of the overview and is appropriate. They consist of nought more than 1 mention per religion and 1 cite thereof for each religion with no extraneous material whatsoever. This would be a great way to hyperlink to more specific information. The main article Religion in Nigeria now has a easily expandable summary similar to that found on this article. Any attempt to expand minor religions shall not be done on the main Nigeria page but on the similar copy found on the religion page. In summary, there is simply a list of minor religions, which were cited solely to be credible and to avoid a fact tagging, they are not intended to replace the main article, but to give interest to readers to explore further,as I believe the best way to get action on the less edited page is by heavily interlinking relevant information. Imbelieve 01:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
That seems reasonable to me. Let's see what others think. Rexparry sydney 06:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but you can not delete everything on religion.

Conflicts in these areas, nigeria, congo, my marine group was in the area years back- Somalia. These conflicts are causes of having no job, no life, etc. Then things happen. And warfare is all they know.

Islam, Christianity, and Animism are listed as the three principle religions in Nigeria. Animism is not a religion -- It's a kind of religion. This sentence should be reconstructed to say either "Monotheism and animism" or "Islam, Christianity, and xxx(a list of the religions that some innocent anthropologist stuck into the animism box). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.127.95 (talk) 06:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for addition of url

{{editprotected}} news: http://www.mynaijanews.com

I've disabled the editprotected request. This article is only semi-protected. If there is consensus for the addition of this link, almost any editor can add it. Cheers. --MZMcBride 02:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration?

Since the author of the 419 article is adamant on letting it stay on then I request for a resolution. My opinion is that the article should be merged with some statement on corruption and be removed. I don't see the point of having an extremely biased article on the page especially dealing with a large and diverse society like Nigeria.Alexplaugh

That is not Wikipedia:Arbitration - Even if you tried, Arbitration would throw your case out, since you did not use Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. I am asking you to get a feel for the encyclopedia and its boundaries BEFORE engaging in disputes. The 419 Nigerian scam is a known issue in Nigeria, and too many sources to name exist that explicitly state that it is a major issue in Nigeria. I am asking for this to be restored right now. I do not feel that there is a reasonable reason to completely exclude 419 from an article about Nigeria. The section (or, if in case of a consolidated crime section, a sentence) must exist, because 419 generates a lot of money in Nigeria. 419 also has stained Nigeria's national image. It must be mentioned. WhisperToMe 06:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

NOTE: The "Crime in Nigeria" article does not exist yet. Perhaps what we can do is mention 419 in more detail there (though not so much as in the Advance fee fraud article, of course) - But we should have one small sentence in the main "Nigeria" article regarding 419. WhisperToMe 06:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Named because it became widespread from Nigeria in the 1990s, the 'Nigerian scam' or '419 fraud' emailed to people outside Nigeria offers a commission for help to avoid foreign exchange controls to get money out of Nigeria. At some point an advance fee or bank account details will be requested, and the perpetrator disappears with the fees. Many such schemes operate from Lagos.[1][2][3] Another form of fraud involves using stolen credit cards or forged cheques or letters of credit to obtain goods in high-profile online marketplaces such as eBay, from outside the country.[4] See the main article linked above for further details.

"Not everyone agreed with Pastor Joshua's methods. He had been called a charlatan, a religious practitioner of "419" fraud. Pastor Joshua admitted to having his critics but insisted they only proved that he was doing God's work. "Without persecution, there is no progress. If you want to be the best among equals, you should expect persecution. The more the persecution, the greater the success."

The following is from a book. did it say 419 was a request sent abroad, I maintain the article is limited, overtly and ridiculously chauvinistic and tries to appropriate a term to fit into its own world view.

Don't you get it, it is contentious, in my opinion, a poorly written section that you think should be on the Nigerian page. The presence of 419 is not the dispute, the meaning, the facts of 419 is in dispute and also the fact that you have presided as the overall judge of something that is filled with bias and overtly chauvinistic and can't see the obvious problems of the article. Please don't waste my time. Next step of dispute resolution.

I think one sentence referring to Advance fee fraud can be left in. Nigeria is a huge country, with one quarter of the population of sub-saharan Africa, and has a lot more things 'staining its image' as well. Wizzy…☎ 18:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

One sentence it is, Wikiwizzy :) - "Advance fee fraud (Also known as "419" and the "Nigerian scam"), common out of Nigeria, has pulled money into the country and serves as the central scheme of a criminal underworld in Nigeria [2]." WhisperToMe 18:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The reference to 419 now reads: "Nigeria is also the home of the Advance fee fraud (a.k.a. 419 scam and "Nigerian scam"), which nets the country a significant amount of money." This is misleading because it implies that the Government of Nigeria generates income from this illegal activity which is not the case. I suggest that a modified version of WhisperToMe's earlier sentence be used in the interim; i.e.: "Advance fee fraud (also known as "419" and the "Nigerian scam"), commonly originates out of Nigeria and serves as one form of Nigerian organised crime." (Ajisekanla 15:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

That sounds reasonable, Ajisekanla. Feel free to be bold and change it. Picaroon (t) 15:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I would if I could. Unfortunately, the article is semi-protected and I can't edit it. (Ajisekanla 15:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

I've made the change. By the way, welcome to Wikipedia. Picaroon (t) 15:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rank of population in the world

Population rank is indicated here as 9th and on list of countries by population as 8th. Brickc1 20:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

How can one in four Africans be Nigerian if the population of Nigeria is 140 million and the total population of Africa is 900 million (according to the wiki article on Africa) or 880 million (according to wiki on the ranking of continents by population)? Even though the BBC is cited as a reference, that doesn't necessarily make the statement correct. Somebody should fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.112.128.230 (talk) 11:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Note on deletion of 419 scam references

I have removed the re-inserted edit below:

Nigeria is also the home of the Advance fee fraud (a.k.a. 419 scam and "Nigerian scam"), which nets the country a significant amount of money [5] [6]. The United States Secret Service states that the scheme generates hundreds of millions of dollars every year [7]. Insa Nolte, the director of University of Birmingham's African Studies Department, stated that "The availability of e-mail helped to transform a local form of fraud into one of Nigeria's most important export industries." [8].

These statements are inaccurate and misleading - "nets the country a significant amount of money" implies that this is a government or business supported economic activity. "Insa Nolte, the director of University of Birmingham's African Studies Department" - Ms. Nolte is a junior academic at the Centre of West African Studies of the University of Birmingham (http://www.cwas.bham.ac.uk/staff/) whose academic credentials and experience are limited to socio-political research. Furthermore there is already a comprehensive article dedicated to this subject. The neutrally of this edit is suspect. Ajisekanla (talk) 13:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Kindly do not revert agreed upon edits without discussion. Anyways, I do not see how 419 does not contribute extensive money to the Nigerian economy. I have sources, and people must agree that they are not acceptable. Aji, your take is not sufficient for removal. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, Aji, money is heavily intwined with politics in Nigeria; part of the reason why 419 flourishes in the first place is politics.

In addition, I found this from Georgia's Governor's Office of Consumer Affairs: http://consumer.georgia.gov/00/article/0,2086,5426814_39039081_38232744,00.html

"To the chagrin of Nigeria’s government, this operation is estimated to be the third or fourth largest revenue source for that country’s economy."

WhisperToMe (talk) 04:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

To your credit, though, Aji, Nolte ISN'T a director. Now, she has the degrees, so, Aji, she has the credentials. However...

"nets the country a significant amount of money" implies that this is a government or business supported economic activity.

Aji, Nigeria is considered to be an incredibly corrupt country. What it implies should not surprise you. The shock and surprise at accusation of the Nigerian government(s) of being corrupt is puzzling. Nigeria is known for corruption.

WhisperToMe (talk) 04:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, this document has testimony from the Ms. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, the finance minister, who discusses 419: "Another agency, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) is fighting advance fee fraud, sometimes called 4-1-9 fraud after the article in the Nigerian criminal code that condemns it, and "has gotten three kingpins of 4-1-9 behind bars now," the Nigerian added."

http://usinfo.state.gov/ei/Archive/2004/Apr/07-246239.html

I think the fact that the finance minister is discussing 419 in a U.S. State Department speech shows that 419 is a major aspect of the economy of Nigeria. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Also we have: From: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/1601.pdf

"Criminal fraud conducted against unwary investors is a chronic problem in Nigeria. Called “419 fraud” after the relevant section of the Nigerian criminal code, these “advance-fee” schemes target foreigners and Nigerians alike through the mails, the internet, and fictitious companies. Despite improved law enforcement efforts, the scope of the financial fraud continues to bring international notoriety to Nigeria and constitutes a serious disincentive to commerce and investment. Companies and individuals seeking to conduct business with a Nigerian firm or individual should conduct the appropriate due diligence to ascertain they are not the victims of 419 crime."

I understand it is embarrassing to Nigeria, but Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I would like to mention this in other articles, i.e. "Amsterdam," "Ouagadougou," "Accra," etc. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

“Kindly do not revert agreed upon edits without discussion.” This advice applies to you – Whisper. You have yet to prove that this information is: 1. Relevant, 2. Accurate, 3. Unbiased, and 4. Properly sourced. Repeatedly reinserting it does not change this.

“Anyways, I do not see how 419 does not contribute extensive money to the Nigerian economy. I have sources, and people must agree that they are not acceptable. Aji, your take is not sufficient for removal.” Actually you have it backwards. YOUR take is not sufficient for inclusion. Because you believe something is true or relevant, does not make it relevant, nor does “vague references to “other people.” This is called original research and Wikipedia is not the repository for such opinions.

“…money is heavily intwined with politics in Nigeria; part of the reason why 419 flourishes in the first place is politics.” Money is heavily intertwined with politics in America, which is way special interested groups and corrupt multinationals are such a problem there (Enron anyone) that still does not make it relevant when discussing the Economy of a country.

“In addition, I found this from Georgia's Governor's Office of Consumer Affairs” Again an opinion statement from an unqualified source. This is actually better than your earlier “sources” and should be included on the Advance Fee Fraud article; but it does not change the fact that this source is not qualified to comment on Nigeria’s economy – since you are really committed to this, I again direct you to the Nigerian Central Bank, the World Bank and the IFC.

“[Insa Nolte] has the degrees, so ...she has the credentials.” Let me restate the obvious in an simpler way - a degree in “The History of Confederate America” does not qualify it’s holder to comment as an expert on the prevalence of credit card fraud and Identity theft in Houston, Texas, or to be taken as a credible source regarding it’s contribution to the Texan economy.

“Nigeria is considered to be an incredibly corrupt country. What it implies should not surprise you. The shock and surprise at accusation of the Nigerian government(s) of being corrupt is puzzling. Nigeria is known for corruption.” Again this statement shows that more [[[original research]]] is taking place here. This is a very broad and sweeping generalisation, which is easily disprovable and difficult to defend. Let me say this another way using your words: “America is considered to be an incredibly racist country. What it implies should not surprise you. The shock and surprise at accusation of the American government(s) of being racist is puzzling. America is known for racism.” The truth is that there are lots of racist people in America and a lot of racist people in American government. But that does not mean that every American is racist, nor every state government is racist. In fact there are government agencies that exist to combat this problem, just like there are agencies that combat corruption in Nigeria. Your argument simply exists to further an opinion as such it is not relevant to this article.

“Also, this document has testimony from the Ms. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala” – Finally something coming from a truly relevant source on the Nigerian Economy. However her comments merely strengthen the fact that this a crime and punishment issue, which the Nigerian government is cracking down on, thus directly negating your earlier faulty assumption that the “Nigerian government” and “Nigeria” are “corrupt.” Furthermore, your source is dated. Mrs. Okonjo-Iweala was the finance minister under the former administration, she has since taken up a vice-president role at the World Bank. Not bad for a “corrupt Nigerian.”

“I understand it is embarrassing to Nigeria.” This is not embarrassing to Nigeria, any more than credit card fraud, spam, identity theft, police brutality against immigrants or rampant drug abuse is embarrassing to America. Nigerians recognise (Americans do) that these are vices that need to be suppressed and eliminated and are working towards doing so.

“…but Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive” Yes, descriptive of facts that are verifiable and logically valid. This is not one of those cases.

“I would like to mention this in other articles, i.e. "Amsterdam," "Ouagadougou," "Accra," etc.” It does not matter which country or city page you place these opinions on, it will not make them relevant. Ajisekanla (talk) 15:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that WhisperToMe's 2 sentence addition re Advance Fee Fraud is reasonable. We do not need paragraphs of speculation - and a footnote to the Economy section seems the most appropriate. Suprisingly enough, some people may come to this article looking for more information on the scam, and currently, will not find it. I don't know how significant it is to Nigeria's economy - I doubt it is large, but I think it warrants a mention in this article, if only to point them to the main one. Wizzy…☎ 16:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I must commend Ajisekanla for putting this matter in the proper perspective. I cannot understand, and my ignorance should be pardoned, how an activity carried out by a small number of people (compared to the whole) and which impact on society's development or the lack of it is next to nill (I live in Nigeria and should know) should be used as a general statement on the whole. Is some fallacy not playing itself out here? Must a country continue to be stigmatised by half-truths (fed by a biased and jaundiced international media amongst other sources)? For whatever it is worth, 419 is not representative of the Nigerian people any more than crime is representative of South Africa, drug use is representative of America, racism is representative of Europe and America, terrorism is representative of Saudi Arabia etc etc. It is perfectly in order to have a specific page on Advance Fee Fraud. But to use it as a key reference point on Nigeria is out of order. Even more so is the talk of its "contribution" to Nigeria's economy. No data exists to support such a position. The editors / contributors of Wikipedia will do well to leave this out of the Nigeria page. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.46.241.40 (talk) 19:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

First, what is "small" - Why should I take the comments of an anon over the comments of a university professor with credentials in West African Studies? Wikipedia:No Original Research. Now, then. "419 is not representative of the Nigerian people any more than crime is representative of South Africa, drug use is representative of America, racism is representative of Europe and America, terrorism is representative of Saudi Arabia etc etc." - We still have to describe 419 - Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We will not give 419 Undue weight - and that is easily accomplished. "No data exists to support such a position." - And your source is? I gave mine. I have several news articles. "The editors / contributors of Wikipedia will do well to leave this out of the Nigeria page. Thank you!" - The other registered users have agreed to leave in a small paragraph about it. That is enough. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What is "small"??? A few hundreds/thousands is small in a population of 140 million. I do not need to be a university professor to know that! The mere fact that thousands of emails are generated does not immediately mean they are sent by thousands or millions of people. Again, a fact that does not require a university professorship to verify! Internet penetration in Nigeria is currently at 17% (Source: AMPS Report - Media Planning Services, 2007). When these emails first came to the fore early this decade, internet penetration was in single digits. Even assuming that 17% of the population that has access to the internet do nothing but send scam/419 emails, is that sufficient a number to generalise the people? So how can this be descriptive of Nigeria and Nigerians?

If we extend your claim to its logical conclusion, I will expect to see a section on Paedophile on the UK page (or is that not a problem in the UK?), terrorism on every Arab/Mid-East/Islamic country page (or is that not what we are supposed to believe ie that terrorism is an Arab phenomenon?), the mafia on the Italian page etc etc. Are there no researches to buttress the connection, no matter how tenuous, of these issues with the countries named? It is my understanding that "description" applies to a quality to be found in the majority of a sample (meaning that it is representative of that sample). 419 is not and has never been "descriptive" of Nigeria - inspite of what you may think. Straight-talker (talk) 08:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to that

"It is my understanding that "description" applies to a quality to be found in the majority of a sample (meaning that it is representative of that sample)." - So your argument is that, because a few people are involved in 419, that it should not be mentioned... just like how a "few" in Houston are members of street gangs.

The Houston article has the following text: "Houston's homicide rate per 100,000 residents increased from 16.33 in 2005 to 17.24 in 2006. The number of murders in the city increased to 379 in 2006, although this increase was smaller than in 2005;[66] Houston, like other cities, faces crime related to gang activities: in 1996, there were about 380 gangs with 8,000 members, of which 2,500 were juveniles.[70]"

The issue is not that few people are doing the activity; it is that advance fee fraud decreases the confidence of foreigners in Nigeria, is prominently featured as Nigerian (Nkem Owoh's I Go Chop Your Dollars), and has led to backlash against legitimate Nigerian business. Consider Wikipedia:Notability - Since the consensus in "Nigeria" was to have one sentence, it shall be one sentence. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

  • The entry in the Houston article you refer to is: 1. Placed under Government & Politics and follows a preceding sentence which states that "Criminal Law is enforced by the Houston Police Department" which shows that this is a crime and government issue, 2. Sites sources that are proximate to the issue (i.e. local news media) 3. Provides credible sources (i.e. surveys, and crime reporting statistics provided by the Houston Police Department, the US Justice Department and the FBI), and 4. Is presented in a neutral and appropriate manner by merely stating the statistics and not does attempt to make any unsubstantiated inferences by unqualified sources (e.g. Dr. John Doe, of the Texas A&M, Engineering Department says "The majority of criminals are illegal immigrants").
  • Consensus is defined as - ...a general agreement among the members of a given group or community. As I have illustrated earlier your minority opinion does not equal consensus. The current consensus in Nigeria is that this minority opinion should not be included in this country page. Furthermore it is the general consensus in almost all Wikipedia articles that Crime entries are not discussed or presented as Economic ones. Ajisekanla (talk) 09:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Wizz's Comments

“I think that WhisperToMe's 2 sentence addition re Advance Fee Fraud is reasonable. “ Thanks for your contribution to this issue Wizz, I believe you are referring to this sentence: “The United States Secret Service states that the scheme generates hundreds of millions of dollars every year.” This information, while not proximate is actually incorrect. The Secret Service Announcement actually says – “Indications are that Advance Fee Fraud grosses hundreds of millions of dollars annually and the losses are continuing to escalate. In all likelihood, there are victims who do not report their losses to authorities due to either fear or embarrassment.” Which can be interpreted to mean that they are guessing at the size of a problem that in actual fact do not know the size of due to possible or perceived under reporting. This is different that stating, as a matter of fact that this is the size of the problem. Furthermore, besides the US Secret Service not really being qualified to comment on the impact of this activity on the Nigerian Economy, this statement is clearly designed as a warning against particular criminal activity and does not attempt to provide an official opinion on the Nigerian Economy.

“We do not need paragraphs of speculation - and a footnote to the Economy section seems the most appropriate.” I disagree, information of this type is not appropriate for country, state or city pages and is not found on any other page of this type in Wikipedia under this section. Why make an exception for Nigerian pages?

“Suprisingly enough, some people may come to this article looking for more information on the scam, and currently, will not find it … I think it warrants a mention in this article, if only to point them to the main one.” That’s probably true, but in doing so they would probably type “419” or “Advance Fee Fraud”, on either a search engine or Wikipedia’s home page which would bring up links to the article dedicated to this on Wikipedia. The same argument could be made (as Straight Talk did above) for pedophilia in the UK, kidnapping in Mexico, or terrorism in the United Arab Emirates which are also not mentioned on their country, state or city pages. However, there is information on these topics in dedicated articles on Wikipedia, which, like Advance Fee Fraud are relatively easy to find. I see it differently; people search country pages to learn additional information about a person, place or thing for many different reasons ranging from business, education, research or fun.

“I don't know how significant it is to Nigeria's economy - I doubt it is large,” You’re right it is not large and is not a regulated, supported or tolerated economic activity. Placing it in this article , besides deviating from the body Wikipedia entries, creates the impression that it is somehow significant. I do not dispute the impact of this kind of fraud on the lives of people victimised by it, but that does not make it an issue relevant to the economy of Nigeria.

[edit] Response to that

Except that many of the problems you mention are... general problems. You know 419 is specific. In Nigeria it is specific to Lagos, the suburbs of Lagos, and the Igboland in the east. 419 does not happen from the north. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Advance Fee Fraud is no less "general" than the other crimes people have mentioned here, as even YOU have acknowledged your interest in adding this information on other country or city pages (Amsterdam, Accra, etc). You keep saying that Advance Fee Fraud "...is specific to Lagos, the suburbs of Lagos, and the Igboland in the east. 419 does not happen from the north." This is classic original research! How do you know this? Where is your source for this information? Do you have personal experience that in some way clearly and objectively corroborates this view? I think not. Ajisekanla (talk) 09:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Whisper's Comments

“First, what is "small" - Why should I take the comments of an anon over the comments of a university professor with credentials in West African Studies? Wikipedia:No Original Research. “Whisp, please refrain from bullying other wiki editors not only is this against wiki policy, but it only serves to weaken your argument. Furthermore why are you still touting this academic as a credible source? As I have shown you earlier, the credentials you refer to are not relevant to the discussion of the Economy of Nigeria. Her background is in “West African Studies”, which is like saying a background in “North American Studies” qualifies a person as an expert in the Economy of Texas. It does not. YOU continue to engage in Original Research by trying to propound a personal view that is not an Economic subject, nor is it appropriate for a country, state or city page.

"We still have to describe 419 - Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive.” I agree, and there is an excellent Wikipedia page dedicated to that subject entitled Advance Fee Fraud.

“We will not give 419 Undue weight.” You are because it is not relevant for this subject and its inclusion is loaded with additional insinuations about Nigeria and Nigerians.

“…and that is easily accomplished. "No data exists to support such a position." - And your source is? I gave mine. I have several news articles.” Again you prescribe medicine that is only applicable to your. Your “data” is at best suspect and clearly biased. Despite my continued suggestions and promptings you have been unable to clearly and directly substantiate the claim that Advance Fee Fraud is a significant part of the Nigerian economy and that it is supported by the Nigerian government. A few articles from online magazines do not constitute Economic research.

"The editors / contributors of Wikipedia will do well to leave this out of the Nigeria page. Thank you!" - The other registered users have agreed to leave in a small paragraph about it. That is enough.” Actually that is too much. As I have already shown you, the editors you refer to are in the minority, both on this subject and when compared to all country, state and city pages in the body of Wikipedia.

This opinionated information is not appropriate for this or any country, state or city page and until you can prove otherwise, cannot be included, nor matter how strongly you feel it should be. Ajisekanla (talk) 11:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Aji's comment here

I'll look more at the comment later, but a few things first:

  • Especially since there is no policy or guideline stating that crime information should NOT be in country, city, and state articles, we make decisions based on individual consensus. Some precedent should be considered, but generally these issues are on a case by case basis.

Anyway, Aji, what I want is that Advance fee fraud has to be mentioned somewhere in this article at least once. And, "This opinionated information" is actually a content dispute - This is not a Wikipedia:POV dispute. We all know 419 happens - the question is whether to include it. WhisperToMe

Also, the bits about the lady and man talking and 419 do not fail NPOV as the authors are attributed. One of the points about NPOV is that comments must be attributed to people so that the audience can judge whether the people are trustworthy. Since the people have credentials, we can safely include their comments and let the audience decide. "This opinionated information is not appropriate for this or any country, state or city page and until you can prove otherwise" is not the standard we use. (talk) 18:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How Wiki-Policy relates to this subject
  • Let me quote from WP:Policy for you: “Most other policies derive from consensus, which includes: … 2. Current conventions, practices, and standards, established over time by consensus among Wikipedia editors. …Wikipedia policy and guideline pages are not in themselves the source of Wikipedia policy. ...The purpose of a written policy or guideline is to record clearly what has evolved as communal consensus in actual practice, rather than to lead editors prescriptively toward a given result.” In short, the practice of other editors across Wikipedia becomes wiki-policy.
  • You right about this being a content dispute. However, besides the aforementioned policy deviation, this is also about differing points of view and original research. Your suggested entries have made several unsupportable claims that show bias and could be construed by readers as discriminatory (as other editors have pointed out). Statements that imply Nigeria earns “a significant amount of money” from Advance Fee Fraud, or that Nigerians are inherently criminal are misleading and (unsurprisingly) offensive to Nigerians. This is because they do not project a true or neutral view.
  • References from inappropriate sources will almost always fail the Neutral Point of View test. I quote “The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources”. Attributing an unsubstantiated statement to an unreliable or unqualified source does not make it neutral. Editors are expected to “Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute.” Hence statements like the ones you had earlier entered “earns the country a significant amount of money” fail. Ajisekanla (talk) 15:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] And my response to the Wiki policy

So the dispute is no longer about the inclusion of 419, but the exact statement, am I right?

Now, Aji, it's debatable whether "nets a significant amount of money" is POV - I don't see it as implying POV, but I think there is a better way to phrase it that may quash your concerns.

I'll try replacing that with this: Slate editor Brendan I. Koerner stated, "Of that number, enough people fork over enough cash to sustain an industry that ranks in Nigeria's top five, right up there with palm oil and tin." -

There cannot be any implied POV because it is clearly attributed to another person. This is his about page: http://www.youthrobber.com/

Anyway, we had a previous discussion that ended in favor of a brief mention of 419, and there seems to be no consensus to change it in the "Nigeria" article - But I am willing to craft the statement to reduce ambiguities. WhisperToMe (talk)

  • The issues have been clearly identified by Wizzy under the "Clarity please, not pages of the same argument" section.
  • While I agree that your suggestion would be an improvement, it still doesn't make it balanced, nor does it answer the question as to it's reliability. If the online magazine editor in question was an Economist (which Mr. Koerner is not) then his opinion would be notable and possibly relevant. Your suggestion is still is not an appropriate for this section. Why don't you ask Mr. Koerner for his source of this information? That might provide a more verifiable source.
  • Consensus changes as more editors review articles, as time passes & more accurate information comes to light and as realities change. Ajisekanla (talk) 10:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further Discussion on the insertion of Advance Fee Fraud Information

Whisp, I’m glad that we are making progress here. Unfortunately you are still making the same mistake.

“First, there is a consensus that "corruption" is an issue in Nigeria": Take a look at this Google search: [9].” This is not evidence of “consensus,” it’s just shows how effective Google’s search engine is. Check out these search results: America Rascist[10]; Mexico Kidnapping[11], Thailand Drugs[12], Houston Racist[13] and Houston Corrupt [14]. Pretty incriminating stuff, including articles in major papers (kidnapping gets a mention in the Economist) and a Houston Councilman’s racist outburst on radio. As you can see a search result does not suddenly change an irrelevant opinion into a relevant fact.

“As for corruption and 419: I found a source from Haverford College written by Harvey Glickman” Excellent work, I’ve read this article before and though dated is a pretty good article which I think would be a welcome addition to the article on Advance Fee Fraud. However it does not show (nor can be manipulated to support) the claim that Advance Fee Fraud is 1. Government supported activity or 2. Key to the Economy of Nigeria; and ‘‘‘does not change the fact that this issue is not relevant for a country, state or city page.’’’

“…could not operate without political connections.” The Drug trade[15][16][17][18], Organised crime[19][20], Prostitution[21][22][23], Identity Theft [24][25][26][27][28] in the US are examples of politically connected illegal activity that impact the economy, and generate Trillions of dollars each year, in fact one could argue that the US is a nexus of these kinds of illegal activities. However, that does not change them from crime issues to economic ones, or make them relevant for inclusion on the country, state and city pages under the economies of the affected countries (in this case the US).

“…your arguments about knowing what an economy is, ETC. do not convince me.” My superior expertise, education, experience and proximity is relevant to this issue, but I am not asking you to take my word for it. Do the research, go to the World Bank, IFC and Nigerian Central Bank, recognised organisations that are more qualified to speak on the economy of any nation that either you or I.

“You think that 419 is not notable enough to mention in the Nigeria page while I think the opposite.” Thank you for highlighting the key issue here. It is a matter of opinion and not fact. Let’s look at the comments on the Nigeria page shall we? 4 editors (Anon - 192.206.151.130, Crud3w4re, FireWeed and you) feel that this should be mentioned on the Nigerian country page, while 6 editors (Straight Talker, Anon - 196.46.241.40, Rexparry Sydney, Tsadori, Alexplaugh, Eoghanzer, excluding me) feel that this is not appropriate or relevant and have raised concerns about the overwhelmingly negative portrayal of what should be objective and neutral information. The consensus is not in support of this view.

“419 should …not be a large mention” Actually as I have pointed out several times already, mentioning a crime issue, not matter how small, on a country, state or city page would be an exception to all other pages of this type in the entire body of Wikipedia and as such cannot be included. Ajisekanla (talk) 09:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to that

"419 should …not be a large mention” Actually as I have pointed out several times already, mentioning a crime issue, not matter how small, on a country, state or city page would be an exception to all other pages of this type in the entire body of Wikipedia and as such cannot be included." - There is NO policy on Wikipedia stating that crime cannot be mentioned on city pages. We do things on a case by case basis. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Actually WP:Policy says: “Most other policies derive from consensus, which includes: … 2. Current conventions, practices, and standards, established over time by consensus among Wikipedia editors. …Wikipedia policy and guideline pages are not in themselves the source of Wikipedia policy. ...The purpose of a written policy or guideline is to record clearly what has evolved as communal consensus in actual practice, rather than to lead editors prescriptively toward a given result.” In short, the practice of other editors across Wikipedia becomes wiki-policy. Ajisekanla (talk) 15:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
    • So you are trying to say that there is a precedent, am I right? Anyway, Aji, we already agreed to include 419 briefly once here, so the old revision must be restored unless there is a clear consensus against the mention. 419 is specifically associated with specific parts of Nigeria, cities in other parts of West Africa, South Africa, and Amsterdam, Netherlands. Rape can happen anywhere (it would only be mentioned in places with high-profile rape cases or cases with unusual rape cases) - But 419 is Wikipedia:Notable for happening in Nigeria and a few other specific places. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes there is a precedent. And as I have mentioned several times before Whisp, the consensus does not appear to support this view and (and even if it did consensus can change). The "clearly explained" objections to this revision preclude it's re-insertion until this matter is resolved.
      • Once again you show that there is a bias to your insertion of this particular edit. I have used this example twice - Kidnapping is closely associated with Mexico, although it occurs elsewhere, yet is not mentioned on the country page despite it's perceived economic impact. I ask you again, where are your sources that can confirm as a result of research and not hearsay that these crimes are localised in specific parts of Nigeria? It is common knowledge in Nigeria that these scams originate from all over the country, including the north. What makes you confident that this is not the case?
      • However I think that Wizzy's comments below ring true. Since there is crime section on South Africa's page (which in my view is an exception to most other country pages) inserting a similar crime section on the Nigeria pages with a reference to Advance Fee Fraud would be ok. However, trying to present this as an economic issue (no matter how strongly you personally feel it is) without relevant sources is not ok. Ajisekanla (talk) 10:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • I'll respond to the comments here in a sec - IMO, though, the debate about "whether 419 is economic" should continue on the Economy of Nigeria and/or advance fee fraud - The question here is how a brief mention of 419 should be stated (in Nigeria and Lagos) WhisperToMe (talk) 09:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
    • It's pretty clear that this is not an economic issue, and it is difficult to find reliable sources to support this view. Please see my comments below regarding a suggested entry. Ajisekanla (talk) 11:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarity please, not pages of the same argument

I find myself wading though pages of stuff by three single-issue editors - Ajisekanla (talk · contribs), Straight-talker (talk · contribs), and 196.46.241.40 (talk · contribs), on one side, and long-time wikipedians WhisperToMe (talk · contribs) and Wizzy (talk · contribs). Folks, you do not have to repeat other people's quotes - if you have to, do so sparingly. I find no new information above. It boils down to :-

  1. Does crime belong on a city/country page ?
  2. Is Advance fee fraud significant enough to mention on the Nigeria page ?

I live in South Africa. I have been to Nigeria. We had a bit of a tussle on Johannesburg and South Africa, but both articles now carry major sections on crime. I believe these are more representative of the Nigeria page, being major African countries and cities. So, I rest my case on point 1. On point 2, this article (to pick one reference from Advance fee fraud) says "Constitutes the 3rd to the 5th largest industry in Nigeria." I doubt that, but I do believe it is a big industry, and deserves 2 sentences (whatever those might be) referring readers to the main article, Advance fee fraud.

Concise arguments to the contrary, please. Wizzy…☎ 11:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Wizzy's Comments

Thanks for your comments Wizzy. Please note that I am not a single issue editor. Even if I was, does that change the validity of this issue?

Your only edits are in this area. Houston edits, et. al., were just to support this point. To me it implies that you are new to wikipedia, and its processes. If you have other edits I am not aware of, my apologies. Wizzy…☎ 10:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Your reasoning on point 1 is fair enough and based on this a “Crime” section could probably be inserted on Nigeria’s country page. However comparing the references to crime on the South Africa page to the entries made on advance fee fraud made on the Nigeria page, there is a world of a difference in the quality and neutrality of these entries. Taking this to the second point this section could include a sufficiently neutral reference to Advance Fee Fraud with a link to the main article.

The other major point here is whether this is an economic issue - it is not. Sweeping unsubstantiated generalisations like those stated on the website you referred to are misleading and show bias. It provides no verifiable information backing this statement and fails to identify the measure used in defining “large” or “big.”

[ .. some comments removed .. ]

[I reinsert my following comments removed by Wizzy…☎ at 10:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC):] Ajisekanla (talk) 10:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it:

  • the 5th largest employer of labour in Nigeria?
  • the 5th largest contributor to Nigerian GDP?
  • the 5th largest in terms of global awareness of Nigeria?
  • the 5th largest in terms of Nigerian exports?
  • the 5th largest in terms of Nigerian imports?
  • the 5th largest in terms of Nigerian foreign currency receipts?
  • the 5th largest in Nigeria in terms of Profits?
  • the 5th largest in terms of National or Global spread?

The list is endless. Claims like this would be laughable to anyone on the ground in Nigeria, because they can point to tangible physical evidence that this is not the case - such as large Nigerian multinationals that are well known and whose contribution to the economy is measured, visible, and verifiable[29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47]. Ajisekanla (talk) 16:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have sent an email to the site you referenced, asking them to kindly modify that statement with supportable facts. (Hopefully they will).

Ajisekanla (talk) 16:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not support this assertion, as I said above. I just say it is significant - enough to warrant a mention on this page. Have we agreed to make a mention ? Next things are :-
  1. Where (which section) it should be mentioned under (a new section ?)
  2. What the piece will say.

Wizzy…☎ 10:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

  1. Advance Fee Fraud is a crime issue and should be mentioned under "Crime"
  2. Here's an initial suggestion: "Advance fee fraud (also known as "419" and the "Nigerian scam"), and is a form of organised crime that commonly originates out of Nigeria.[48]" Ajisekanla (talk) 10:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid I am unable to go along with nor buy the previous arguments put forward by Wizzy. First, the point about one-issue editing is rather irrelevant. I am unaware (and will be happy to be educated) that there is a requirement for an editor to make contributions on a range of issues before her/his comments can be taken on board. I have taken up this particular issue for the simple reason that it 1] seeks to paint a picture completely at variance with general practice and 2] because it makes sweeping statements that have no basis in fact.

If there is no general practice to tie in a particular crime to a particular country on its country page, to do so on the Nigerian page will be rather presumptuous and ultimately begs the question: what purpose does it seek to serve?. The fact there is a reference on the SA page, rather than justify the need to reference Advance Fee Fraud on the Nigerian page, only proves the exception to what is a general rule.

Even more mind-boggling is the claim that Advance Fee Fraud is "the 3rd to the 5th" economic activity (?) in Nigeria. Really? Surely, the editors of wikipedia should be expected to not go so far. To further drive home Aji's point above, such claims only highlight the shear laziness of the so-called "experts" on the matter. To even claim any "significant" contribution is far off the mark. Oil and gas contributes over 80% of Nigeria's GDP (please google Nigeria's economy and go through any number of sources on this). With this figure, what "significant" contribution can any other sector lay claim to in a long list that includes telecoms, manufacturing, agriculture, non-oil mining, banking, insurance, construction etc etc?

There is no denying that "419" has given Nigeria a bad name. But if, first and foremost, wikipedia seeks to paint a true descriptive picture, then it should be agreed that this issue is well and appropriately taken care of in the specific page that dwells on the issue. The Nigerian page is not an appropriate for it. Straight-talker 18:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I like Aji's idea. Let's go with that! :) WhisperToMe 22:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
How about :- "
Main article: Advance fee fraud
Advance fee fraud (also known as "419" and the "Nigerian scam"), and is a form of organised crime that is commonly associated with Nigeria. The target is persuaded to advance relatively small sums of money (the advance fee) in the hope of realizing a much larger gain (usually touted as millions). [49]" Wizzy…☎ 08:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
It sounds okay and is a well sourced statement. Re: location, I think Straight-talker makes a very stong point. The South African "crime" section is an exception that proves the rule. Perhaps, like many country and state pages (such as the US and Texas pages), this information could be provided under "Demographics" in a subsection entitled "Crime & Punishment" or under the "Government and Politics" section" in a subsection entitled "Justice System". Ajisekanla 09:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interactive maps online, on the phone and sat nav for Nigeria

Are you travelling to Nigeria? Do you want to easily get around? I found this website that seems to have a lot about Nigeria, maps, sat navs, mobile phone maps etc. http://www.ceaser-web.com


Plan your trip on their website before you travel - even nationwide. Also, you can search for points of interest like hotels, banks, schools etc. You can also download Nigerian city maps on your mobile phone and do loads of stuff, also buy their sat nav for Nigeria, voice prompted, looks so cool.

You can also download demos and try the application before you get the full version.

http://www.ceaser-web.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.187.224 (talk) 01:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economy

I removed the claim that Nigeria has one of the fastest growing economies in the world. The economy has quite on the contrary been described as stagnant for 30 years by the World Bank just two weeks ago.[50] See also List of countries by GDP (real) growth rate. --Ankimai (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

  • I think removing the statement was fair, being that it was not referenced, but the information on the GDP growth page is "estimated" and is markedly different from the actual. Furthermore, the report cited in the newspaper article is no where to be found on the World Bank's website, where such reports are usually placed before they are presented.
  • The fact that Nigeria's estimated GDP growth in 2006 was over 5.6% directly negates the claim that the economy has been stagnant for 30 years. That claim stretches credulity, as I have lived in Nigeria since 1998 and can confirm that the economy here has quite clearly "grown."
  • Check out this report[51], it discusses the economic decline that was prevalent between 1975 and 1997. A lot has changed in the last 10 years and I suspect that the Daily Trust reporter did not properly summarise the information that was presented. Look at this: [52], most of the facts here support that growth has accelerated. I'll do a bit more research and update the article. Ajisekanla (talk) 14:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I have reinserted this information with supporting data from the IMF which clearly supports the facts of Nigeria's accelerated rate of growth.[53] Ajisekanla (talk) 18:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Repetitive sentence

The part where it says Nigeria is also working very hard in terms of boxing and planing to rule the world in terms of boxing.

It sounds too repetitive and unprofessional... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.15.244 (talk) 00:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to make any changes yourself! I changed this sentence to address your concerns. DBaba (talk) 01:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "New Nations" info

I've removed the following from the societal issues section for now:

There is dynamic dissonance between the Nigerian federation and some of its encapsulated sovereign peoples. At different times, the Hausa (Arewa), Igbo/Ibo (Biafra), Niger Delta region, and Yoruba (Oduduwa) have threatened or agitated to form break-away republics. No secession attempt has yet succeeded, although the clamour grows as each change of government is followed by bitter wrangling about control of mineral resources. Arewa and Biafra would be land-locked countries. The Delta is an oil enclave. Yorubaland is on the Atlantic coast and sustains a diversified and vibrant economy.

First, of course, it needs sources. While the information should be incorporated somewhere, under #Societal issues doesn't seem to be the right place. Maybe a subsection of #Ethno-linguistic groups about ethnic tensions,and this could cover information on secessionist movements past and present. Or, the history section might work. Thoughts? Picaroon (t) —Preceding comment was added at 05:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

  1. ^ Snopes.com: "Nigerian Scam". Accessed 5 April 2007.
  2. ^ Wired.com:"Nigerian Net Grifters Doing Fine." Accessed 5 April 2007.
  3. ^ LA Times:"I Will Eat Your Dollars". Accessed 5 April 2007.
  4. ^ Snopes.com: "CNP Soup". Accessed 5 April 2007.
  5. ^ "The Nigerian Nightmare," Slate
  6. ^ "Nigerian Scam," Snopes
  7. ^ "[http://web.archive.org/web/20060706031522/http://www.secretservice.gov/alert419.shtml PUBLIC AWARENESS ADVISORY REGARDING "4-1-9" OR "ADVANCE FEE FRAUD" SCHEMES]," United States Secret Service
  8. ^ "Baiters Teach Scammers a Lesson," Wired
  9. ^ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Nigeria+corrupt&btnG=Google+Search
  10. ^ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=America+racist
  11. ^ http://www.google.com/search?q=Mexico+Kidnapping&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1
  12. ^ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-gb&q=Thailand+Drugs
  13. ^ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-gb&q=Houston+Racist
  14. ^ http://www.google.com/search?q=Houston+Corrupt&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-gb
  15. ^ http://www.yorku.ca/nathanson/bibliography/activities.htm
  16. ^ www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/wallstdrugs.html
  17. ^ www.counterpunch.org/vidal12072006.html
  18. ^ www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&se=gglsc&d=5000158398
  19. ^ www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/bookdetails.aspx?BookID=13
  20. ^ www.tni.org/crime-docs/impact.pdf
  21. ^ http://www.unlvrebelyell.com/article/2007/09/17/editorial-on-the-local-prostitution-debate/
  22. ^ http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/533/533_12_ModernSlavery.shtml
  23. ^ alexiskennedy0.tripod.com/lab/id20.html
  24. ^ www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/03/symantec_underground.html
  25. ^ www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6762127/
  26. ^ www.helium.com/tm/532400/dealing-identity-theft-years
  27. ^ www.ncjrs.gov/spotlight/identity_theft/summary.html
  28. ^ http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-02-363
  29. ^ www.mtnonline.com
  30. ^ www.ng.celtel.com/en/
  31. ^ www.ibtc.com
  32. ^ www.zenithbank.com
  33. ^ www.firstbanknigeria.com
  34. ^ www.intercontinentalbankplc.com
  35. ^ www.businessdayonline.com
  36. ^ www.multilinks.com
  37. ^ www.chagourygroup.com
  38. ^ www.olamonline.com/
  39. ^ www.frieslandfoods.com/wamconigeria
  40. ^ www.uacnplc.com/brands/foods.htm
  41. ^ www.emzorpharma.com
  42. ^ www.zinoxtechnologies.com/
  43. ^ www.nbplc.com/
  44. ^ www.julius-berger-nigeria.com
  45. ^ www.coca-colahbc.com/countries/index.php?location=Nigeria
  46. ^ www.danagroup.com/
  47. ^ www.clicktgi.com
  48. ^ www.haverford.edu/pols/faculty/glickman/Articles/CJAS_Text_final_1-35.pdf
  49. ^ www.haverford.edu/pols/faculty/glickman/Articles/CJAS_Text_final_1-35.pdf
  50. ^ Ibrahim, Abubakar. "Nigeria’s economy stagnant for 30 years - World Bank", Daily Trust (Abuja), Media Trust Limited, 2007-11-28. Retrieved on 2007-12-11. 
  51. ^ http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTAFRICA/Resources/complete.pdf
  52. ^ http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/AFRICAEXT/0,,contentMDK:20563739~menuPK:1613741~pagePK:146736~piPK:146830~theSitePK:258644,00.html
  53. ^ http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2008/CAR021508A.htm