Talk:Nieuport

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[edit] WW1 Period

The original section here was very partisan - being almost more concerned with uncomplimentary remarks about non-Nieuport types than anything else! It also had the hallmarks of having been lifted word-for-word from another source, and included inappropriate "boys own" type hyperbole as well as much direct misinformation. I have given this section an obviously badly needed re-writing - remarks welcome!Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the informal style and the uncomplimentary remarks about other fighters. Unfortunalely, many of your edits show bias toward the SPAD, and not one of them is cited, making them just as unreliable as the uncited remarks they replace. One paragraph in particular says the exact opposite of what it said previously, with neither version being grounded in documentary evidence.

Having no documentary evidence of my own, I shall see what I can do about the POV. Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 10:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes, and do, please, sign your comments in the discussion section. Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 10:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - I usually manage to remember to sign discussion entries!! The paragraph with the reversed sense was, like most of the original section, straight misinformation, of course. The SPAD S.VII and S.XIII were superior to any 1914-1918 Nieuport in every respect but maneuverability - this is hardly news to anyone who has read anything whatever about either type. That is why, of course, that the French replaced virtually all their operational Nieuports with SPADs from the middle of 1917 onwards. If this sort of thing requires a note then so would every other sentence in every article in wiki! I am a little at a loss about exactly where you'd put in meaningful and useful notes in the section, anyway - perhaps you could mark anything you consider surprising or in need of documentation? Actually the whole article is perhaps a little overdone? Perhaps what it really needs is a bit of condensing? Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally - why put a request for citations on a section of an article that has no citations or references whatever? I would have thought that the whole article needed the tag if the section did? Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out that the entire article lacks citations. I have changed the tag to cover the entire article.

One would cite the source at the end of the sentence, paragraph, or section that uses the information from the source. Therefore, if only a sentence is traceable to the source, the citation is at the end of the sentence. If the whole paragraph is traceable to the source, the citiation is at the end of the paragraph. If the whole section is traceable to the source, the citation is at the end of the section.

Right now I have nothing but your word to say that your version is correct. Previously, there was nothing but the word of the writer of what was there to say that that version was correct. That is an excellent illustration for the need for citations. At least one of you is full of crap, and there is no indication as to which one it is, if not both. Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 12:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Remarks about lack of citations are one thing - although very few article in Wiki have any real "citation" (O.K., that is probably hyperbole - let's rather say that very many DON'T!). Some (I hesitate to guess how many) apparently "well-cited" articles have more or less random "cites" drawn (or allegedly drawn) from more or less random sources. I think citation is a good idea if an idea is unusual, or surprising, or perhaps "out of the way when compared with what most people who know something about the subject would say". Lack of citation is of course disturbing when an article presents a lot of unfamiliar ideas and is full of POV. I would need to have a pretty good grasp of the subject concerned to make a judgement about that though - many subjects are inherently surprising!!

Calling other editors "full of crap" is something again. I suggest that if you are sufficiently motivated to use language like this it might be infinitely more constructive to discover something about the subject concerned for yourself, perhaps even locating some worthwhile sources that might help improve the article. Maybe even (in this case) read the articles on the individual Nieuport (and SPAD?) types, several of which are themselves quite well "cited". Otherwise, it would be pleasant if you could at least refrain from arrogant behaviour and personal abuse, especially about subjects you probably know no more about than I do about vintage cars!

When the smoke clears from all this it might be an idea if I (or you??) replace this article with a shorter, more factual one that makes no pretension at polemical judgements - more, in fact, like the other "aircraft manufacturer" articles in Wiki. I was, to be fair, probably too keen to clear out the nonsense in this case, without substituting a more appropriate KIND of article. Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Two people claiming two completely different statements to be the truth do not lend themselves to niceties of language, especially when neither of them is willing to put up any credible evidence to back their statements up.

I am not the one replacing unsourced florid statements with other unsourced florid statements. Citations are about credibility, and I have no more reason to believe you than I have to believe the guy who wrote what was originally there. I also tend to believe people rather less when they come up with duckspeak like: "The paragraph with the reversed sense was, like most of the original section, straight misinformation, of course" and "this is hardly news to anyone who has read anything whatever about either type." If it's so obvious then it must be well documented, and some good, straightforward sources will be as a lighthouse beacon to the flickering candle of self-aggrandizing rhetoric. You want respect? Fine. I respect sources. Please add them. Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 01:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I want respect? Um... given the "source" of the proffered respect might one be legitimately given to a measure of indifference? Respect (and lack of it) is something that reflects in most cases much more on the giver than the given. And who is talking about "self-aggrandizing rhetoric" for goodness sake? Or were you making good-natured fun of yourself perhaps and I missed it?

Given, in fact, that I have never said that the article is particularly good, nor denied the obvious that the odd well sourced reference (at the least a nice little bibliography) might improve it - I fail to see the point. It is certainly not "my" article in any sense, and if its quality bothers you, I repeat my suggestion that you write a better one. Complete with references if you like, although personally I "respect" indiscriminate footnotes spattered everywhere for the sake of it much less than a sound basic knowledge of the subject concerned. Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

OK I've let you goad me into having another look at the article itself - I am not going to try to fix the non-WW1 bits though - I just don't have the background for the rest. (References to follow - give me a chance). Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your editing. While I do have more to say on the matter, I have the feeling that it will not make any worthwhile impression, so I shall not say it. Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 02:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)