Talk:Niedzica Castle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
It is requested that a photograph or photographs of photo showing how the castle looked before the reservoir was filled be included in this article to improve its quality.
Wikipedians in Poland may be able to help! |
| The Free Image Search Tool (FIST) may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
 |
An entry from Niedzica Castle appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 3 March 2007. |
 |
[edit] This article needs to be factualized
The last Sapa Inca Túpac Amaru died in 1572, if his daughter wrote her testament in 1797 she would then be at least 225 years old (if she was born the same year her father died). IF a daughter of an Incan leader went to Poland it is thus likely to have been the daughter of the Incan rebel leader Túpac Amaru II who died in 1780 after instigating an unsuccesful rebellion against the spanish. He was however not King of the Incas. The sources used for this article are clearly not reliable as sources to historical events - historical sources and not tourist websites should be used for this purpose. I suggest that the "legend" part should be toned down considerably so that it doesn't look like it is anything near to historical fact when in fact it is probably just PR made up by polish tourist agencies in order to make the place more appealing to tourist. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
-
- I checked the sources listed in the article. It does indeed appear that Berzeviczy went to Peru in the 18th, not 16th cent., and you are entirely correct that it is Túpac Amaru II, a freedom fighter, who is being referenced.
- I corrected the article accordingly.
- The section in question clearly refers to a legend connected to the castle, and indicates so. In view of that, there is hardly any point in requiring factual verification of the contents of the legend. The only thing that needs to be verified (and has been--viz. the sources) is that the legend is publicly known in that form.
- I removed the factual accuracy flag, and added the words: “According to a popular legend”, etc. at the points where the legendary account begins.
- “The sources used for this article are clearly not reliable as sources to historical events”. Since a legend, and not historical events are being related, there is no need for historical sources; indeed, had such sources existed, the material would no longer qualify as a legend. The sources cited are appropriate to the material as it stands.
- I removed the sources flag. Freederick 13:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- I checked the sources listed in the article. It does indeed appear that Berzeviczy went to Peru in the 18th, not 16th cent., and you are entirely correct that it is Túpac Amaru II, a freedom fighter, who is being referenced.
-
- I don't believe the tourist websites constitute adequate reference even for a legend - the legend might have been entirely invented by a polish tourist agency, the tourist websites have been proven unreliable since they clearly state that it was Tupac Amaru the king and not the Reel leader. In order to present a legend it must exist in some kind of a written form that can be referenced - hearsay simply isn't a good enough not even for legends. Also since the events happened only approximately 300 years ago at least some of it must be actual events and these should be sourced as such. For example I am sure that Sebastian Benesz did own the castle at some point, this should be referenced. It is probably possible for someone to find sources as to whether he brought a pruvian woman home with him and maybe even to her ancestry this should also be sourced. Of course the treasure part is what is really legendary and some kind of a written non tourist agency reference will do fine to reference it.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 13:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- The very first reference listed under the article [1] correctly references Túpac Amaru II, and the correct time frame. It is not a tourist website. Please read the references before criticizing them.
- The legend does exist in written form, and was known to me before reading the article. You must remember, however, that this is a local legend and as such is mostly recorded in Polish. The tourist website was selected as a source for the simple reason that it contains an online English text of the legend, translated (yes, for tourists) from Polish sources. I have no doubt the author of the article could have provided a number of Polish references; however, this practice is discouraged in the Wikipedia Manual of style. Freederick 13:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe the tourist websites constitute adequate reference even for a legend - the legend might have been entirely invented by a polish tourist agency, the tourist websites have been proven unreliable since they clearly state that it was Tupac Amaru the king and not the Reel leader. In order to present a legend it must exist in some kind of a written form that can be referenced - hearsay simply isn't a good enough not even for legends. Also since the events happened only approximately 300 years ago at least some of it must be actual events and these should be sourced as such. For example I am sure that Sebastian Benesz did own the castle at some point, this should be referenced. It is probably possible for someone to find sources as to whether he brought a pruvian woman home with him and maybe even to her ancestry this should also be sourced. Of course the treasure part is what is really legendary and some kind of a written non tourist agency reference will do fine to reference it.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 13:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
-
- That policy applies to external links not to published sources. The policy on quotations and verifiability says that you should quote the vesion you have used and that english versions of non-english originals should only be used assuming equal quality. I do think that at present the article states sufficiently clear that it is a legend and not fact so I will pursue the matter no further. But I still would like to see references to published (on paper) sources in polish or english - simply because this is an extraordinary claim (and very interesting) and because I would like to know to what degree it is true, and the present sources do not convince me at all.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 14:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see why you object to linking to local sites with information about the referenced object. You label them as “tourist websites” for some reason, and claim that they are therefore unreliable. AFAIK, there is no Wikipedia policy against such sources. In fact, I can list a number of well-established similar articles that have similar references--why don't you flag the following articles? These are just a hasty random sampling: Christiansborg Palace, Koldinghus Castle, Corfe Castle, Tintagel Castle, etc. Freederick 14:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- That policy applies to external links not to published sources. The policy on quotations and verifiability says that you should quote the vesion you have used and that english versions of non-english originals should only be used assuming equal quality. I do think that at present the article states sufficiently clear that it is a legend and not fact so I will pursue the matter no further. But I still would like to see references to published (on paper) sources in polish or english - simply because this is an extraordinary claim (and very interesting) and because I would like to know to what degree it is true, and the present sources do not convince me at all.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 14:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
-
- The reason said websites are unrealiable is not that they are tourist websites which most of them are - but that they do not cite the sources for their claims. And yes there is a policy against using such websites as the only sources for articles: Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The articles on Corfe and Tintagel were sourced with published works and only used the external links as links that provide additional information. Koldinghus and Christiansborg I have tagged as unreferenced since they were completely unreferenced and only had sections with external links to websites which were also unreferenced. These sites however did not run for DYK - I noticed the present article because it had a DYK nomination with some extraordinary claims which turned out to be unsourced. Since DYK entries need to be factual I tagged the article.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 15:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- I see the problem now: no “External links” heading was provided, so the external links appeared merged to the References section. I corrected the article. Sorry. Freederick 15:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- The reason said websites are unrealiable is not that they are tourist websites which most of them are - but that they do not cite the sources for their claims. And yes there is a policy against using such websites as the only sources for articles: Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The articles on Corfe and Tintagel were sourced with published works and only used the external links as links that provide additional information. Koldinghus and Christiansborg I have tagged as unreferenced since they were completely unreferenced and only had sections with external links to websites which were also unreferenced. These sites however did not run for DYK - I noticed the present article because it had a DYK nomination with some extraordinary claims which turned out to be unsourced. Since DYK entries need to be factual I tagged the article.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 15:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Facts
I’ve seached for additional data in order to establish who might have escaped the Inca rebellion of 1780 and the subsequent executions. Tupac Amaru II had three children with wife Micaela Bastidas: Hipólito, Mariano and Fernando. (source: Bolivariano Congress) Spaniards executed the entire family except the 12-year-old Fernando. (source:Wikipedia) Article by Claire Brewster states: On 18 May 1781 in Cuzco’s main plaza, nine people were led to their deaths, among them: Túpac Amaru II, Micaela Bastidas and their elder son, Hipólito. – Cecilia Túpac Amaru [his sister] died in prison before her sentence was carried out. Several other women were exiled. [2] Two years later the rebellion flamed up again and Diego Christobal, the eldest brother of Túpac Amaru II was taken prisoner. He suffered the same fate as his youngest brother at the plaza in Cuzco with their mother Marcela Castro on 19th of July, 1783. [3] One Polish source claims that the wife of Túpac Amaru II was Umina (as oppose to Micaela), the only child of Sebastian Berzeviczy. The source goes on to assert that after the escape to Niedzica “Umina was killed there [allegedly] by Spanish spies.” [4] Clearly, those were two different women, Umina and Micaela. Sebastian Berzeviczy fled to Niedzica with his daughter Umina and her son Antonio only after Túpac’s youngest son Fernando was killed in suspicious circumstances. [5] They settled in Niedzica. [6] Umina was the wife of Túpac’s nephew, Andreas, who was murdered in Italy after the escape. ([7] [8] sources in Polish language) Their son Antonio was adopted by the Benesz family as Anton Benesz. That seems to be the truth. --Poeticbent talk 19:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
