Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus

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Reviewed version: September 18, 2006

Extensive prior discussions of Copernicus's nationality can be read under Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality.

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[edit] Page has been protected

Due to the ongoing dispute regarding this article, the page has been protected from editing for a period of one week. While this is not the preferred choice, it is a necessity due to the fact that there have been at least 14 reverts in the past 7 hours, all of which are related to the issue of nationality. Note that this is not an endorsement of any particular version of the page. Please resolve the issue as best you can on the talk page, and then ask me (or any other administrator) to reopen the page. Thank you. --Ckatzchatspy 05:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I was actually considering requesting protection, but I guess that's not necessary now. At any rate, I second Ckatz's request to come to a consensus before making nationality/ethnicity changes on the page. It's clear there is disagreement, which means that discussion should come before change. --clpo13(talk) 06:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Please keep it protected permanently, as the editwarring here is as old as Wikipedia, and will not cease. As stated numerous times before, the nationality/ethnicity is discussed for over 200 years, before, during and after two World Wars. The issue will not be settled and no compromise will be reached as long as some Poles, and the Polish state itself, desperately try to claim him as Polish - exclusively Polish, of course. Sadly, some sloppy and outdated sources echo these old claims, without stating their (lack of) reasoning. On the other hand, scholars like Norman Davies and Owen Gingerich, both honoured by Poland, do not make this mistake, yet acknowledge the Prussian/German aspects of his life. Apparently it was an Italian librarian who in the 1700s bragged about having seen a entry of Copernicus in records at Padua, which might have started the "Polish astronomer" hoax which was heavily promoted after the Polish state vanished in the 1790 (and thus any Polish citizenship, for over 100 years). It was shown in the 1870s that the librarian had lied, and that Copernicus in fact had signed into the German "natio" at Bologna. Yet, by that time, exiled Poles and Anti-German French had widely promoted the "Polish astronomer" (while beating the drums for a resurrection of a Polish state). Some Anglo-Saxons jumped on this bandwagon, and some are still on it, even in Wikipedia. Anyway, if Copernicus would be labeled Polish, as subject of the King of Poland, then all 19th century figures considered Polish (or Czech etc.) would have to be labeled Russian, Prussian, Austrian also, for consistency, as they were subjects of these monarchies. I doubt that a sane Pole would choose this option. Nevertheless, some want to have it both ways: call all subjects of the multi-cultural Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth until 1795 Polish, and then call Polish-speaking subjects of other multi-cultural states Polish, too. See List of Poles, always an interesting read. Ray Manzarek of the Doors is listed there - should Robby Krieger be added to the list of Germans, accordingly, judging from the family name Krieger? -- Matthead  Discuß   23:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
There's a subtle difference between Copernicus in the 15th–16th centuries, and Poles in the 19th–early-20th centuries. Copernicus was a loyal citizen of Poland, and harbored no reservations concerning that citizenship; whereas the latter Poles had been saddled with foreign citizenships by their country's partitioners! Nihil novi (talk) 00:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Copernicus was a German-speaking citizen of the part of Prussia that seceded from the Order, and allied with the King, similar to Poland leaving the Warsaw Pact etc. to side with NATO and EU, without Poles becoming Northern-Atlantics or European-Unionists because of that. Besides, after WWI, the East Prussian plebiscite showed that over 90% of the population there were loyal Germans, even when being native speakers of Slavic languages related to Polish (Masurian, Kashubian). The results of the Upper Silesia plebiscite was also a shocking surprise to Polish nationalists who intensified their warmongering. Of course, in West Prussia and Posen, no plebiscites were held at all, these areas got annexed to Poland without any trace of democracy, the people there "had been saddled with foreign citizenships by their country's partitioners". Some do not learn from history, apparently. Danzig got no choice either. No wonder Poland expelled so many people in 1945, and held no free votes for decades - how many would choose a communist Poland by free will? -- Matthead  Discuß   01:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Matthead for God's sake, ther eis no comparison between Poland allied with NATO and Prussia INCORPORATED into Polish king. Royal Prussia was just a province of Polish kingdom, with wide authonomy. Copernicus voewd loyalty to Polish king, not to Royal Prussia. Stop spreading this misinformation. As for Posen, there area went to Poland because of Polish uprising, carried without almost any preparations, by local population, without almost any coordination. Are you trying to imply that Poznan area would vote for Germany? And what has XX century with XV century? The concept of nationality itself changed drastically in the meantime. Also note that in XIX century in Masuria Germans themselves recorded majority of Poles, small minority of Masurians and only with each other population poll the number of Masurians steadily was rising. Szopen (talk) 11:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
And also stop to repeat about signing into German natio, because it does not prove anything. Every Polish student signed at that time to German natio. This was not declaration of nationality, but student corporation. Initially it was called northern natio, but because most of students inside it were Germans, it got called "German natio". But Copernicus could not sign for "Polish natio" because at that time in Bologne there was no "Polish natio". Szopen (talk) 11:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Well and accurately stated. Nihil novi (talk) 12:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
At many universities Irish students were put in the German natio. These things don't function even by contemporary definitions of natio, just corporations usually named after the largest group of foreigners or the first group of foreigners of particular number, bearing in mind that "German", as well as meaning speaking German or being from the Kingdom of Germany, was also used loosely in Italy and France to refer to any ["northern"] foreigner. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Szopen wrote:

But Copernicus could not sign for "Polish natio" because at that time in Bologne there was no "Polish natio".

According to Koyré (The Astronomical Revolution, p.79), this is incorrect. Koyré lists the fourteen 'nations' at the University of Bologna as Gallic, Portuguese, Provençal, Burgundian, Savoyard, Aragonese, Navarrese, German, Hungarian, Polish, Bohemian and Flemish. Nevertheless, Koyré also says (p.21):

Although great importance has frequently been ascribed to this fact [viz. that Copernicus's name was inscribed on the Natio Germanorum register at Bologna], it does not by any means imply that Copernicus ever considered himself to be a German. The ‘nationes’ of a medieval university had nothing in common with nations in the modern sense of the word. Students who were natives of Prussia and Silesia were automatically described as belonging to the Natio Germanorum. Furthermore, at Bologna, this was the privileged 'nation'; consequently, Copernicus had very good reason for inscribing himself on its register.

and (p.20): "there is in fact no reason to suppose that Copernicus was not Polish. Furthermore, until the middle of the nineteenth century hardly anyone doubted it"—although he does acknowledge in a footnote that "Giordano Bruno, however, calls him 'German'."
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 15:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
This in contradiction in what I read - in several books I read that Polish natio was established later, and before that Poles and Hungarians enlisted to German natio. Surely Polish natio existed in XVI century in Bologne;
Does Koyre wrote that Polish natio enlisted EXACTLY at time of Copernicus arriving in Bologne?
googling finds Karol Poznański "Historia Wychowania" who seems to support Koyre Szopen (talk) 12:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
An interesting find, but I guess Monsieur Koyre is a rather odd figure as Alexandre Koyré was suspicious of scientists' claims to be proving natural or fundamental truths through their experiments. Hmm. And I haven't mentioned yet that he hardly was pro-German, having his dissertation rejected by a German, then volunteering in WW1 for Russia etc. Regarding pre-1800 biographies, Nicolaus Copernicus Gesamtausgabe has collected Biographies and Portraits of Copernicus from 16th to 18th century, Biographia Copernicana. [10], and so did Henryk Baranowski Bibliografia Kopernikowska 1509-1955. And to stress once again, in the days of old, he was described as Prussian (Prussus or Borussus). Szymon Starowolski wrote "Nicolaus Copernicus, Torunii in Prussia natus; patre Nicolao Copernico: matre vero, quae erat germana sonor Lucae a Watzelrod Toruniensis, Episcopi Varmiensis, praeclare de Repub. Polonorum meriti in causa Cruciferorum", in Scriptorum Polonicorum, 1627. A century later, a hoax from Padua connected him to Polish students there, and following the partitions, Polish and French authors claimed him as Pole for political reasons. It took some time until Germans defended him. We finally need an article to cover this old and important Copernicus controversy that even leads to edit wars here. -- Matthead  Discuß   23:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Matthead, what does "torunii in Prussia natus"? My latin is rather limited, by I think it means "inhabitant of Torun in Prussia", not "he is not Polish but Prussian". As for the rest, thank God we have now people like you, who finally will defend Copernicus.
BTW, just as an example that someone born in Thorn was not automatically "German": Johannes Abezier (look into German version, interesting information about to what natio he belonged in Prague).
However, I am quite sure that in Padua in his time there was Polish natio. He studied there. Which natio he choosed, Polish or German there? What's this "hoax" Matthead keeps talking about? Szopen (talk) 12:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Latin, you were almost right, buts its rather native than inhabitant of Thorn, and of Prussia. Once again, where are old records that call him Polonus, or native of Poland, or similar? Regarding the hoax, this is already well documented on Wikipedia, except in the Copernicus article, where it keeps dropping out somehow. A librarian in Padua in the 1720s had bragged about having seen Polish natio records, with an entry by Copernicus. This was seemingly believed for about 150 years until it was discovered as wrong (and at the same time, the actual German natio entry in Bologna was discovered). As a result, the Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie of 1876 still echos these wrong believes - as does the Wikipedia article of 2008.

Leopold Prowe:

Carlo Malagola, who had discovered that Dominus Nicolaus Kopperlingk de Thorn - IX grossetos[1][2][3][4] had enrolled in 1496 for 9 Groschen in the Acta nationis Germanorum[5][6] at Bologna, revealed that the librarian N. C. Papadopoli in Padua had falsely claimed in 1726 that he had seen an entry of Copernicus in the records of the "Polish nation" at the university. Yet, this claim had by then been widely published and "found a place in all subsequent biographies of Copernicus, but the decorative particulars added by the historian of the Patavian university have been shown to be wholly incorrect".[7] and utterly baseless.[8]


Nicolaus_Copernicus#Nationality_and_ethnicity:

Already in the 123-year period when no Polish state existed (see History of Poland, 1795–1918), the matter was debated in German writings; nevertheless, the 1875 Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie acknowledged the Polish aspects of Copernicus' life.[9] Current German sources call the controversy, as reflected in the older literature, superfluous and shameful.[10]

  1. ^ Marian Biskup Regesta Copernicana (calendar of Copernicus' Papers), 1973, Ossolineum [1]
  2. ^ Carlo Malagola: Della vita e delle opere di Antonio Urceo detto Codro: studi e ricerche,1878, [2] [3]
  3. ^ Arthur Koestler, The Sleepwalkers, 1959 [4]
  4. ^ Ernst Ludwig Wilhelm Maximilian Curtze: Nicolaus Coppernicus: Eine biographische Skizze, 1899 [5]
  5. ^ Der Aufenthalt des Coppernicus in Bologna, By Carlo Malagola, 1880
  6. ^ Carlo Malagola: I libri della Nazione tedesca presso lo Studio bolognese, note storico ... 1884 [6]
  7. ^ The fact was asserted by Papadopoli in 1726, and found a place in all subsequent biographies of Copernicus ; but the decorative particulars added by the historian of the Patavian university having been shown wholly incorrect, it seemed unreasonable to rely on his discredited authority for the fundamental circumstance. - The Edinburgh Review: Or Critical Journal, By Sydney Smith et. al., Published 1883, A. and C. Black, [7]
  8. ^ As for the assertion that Copernicus was registered as a Pole at Padua, that was investigated, at the instance of Prince Boncompagni, by Favaro, and found utterly baseless. On the other hand, Carlo Malagola, in his admirable work on Urceo Codro showed that "Niccolo Kopperlingk di Thorn" had registered as a law student at Bologna in the album of the "Nazione Alemanna". This may not prove much, but it is, at least, not an invention. - Charles Sanders Peirce, Kenneth Laine Ketner, James E. Cook: Contributions to the Nation, Published 1982 Texas Tech University Press, 202 pages ISBN 089672154X (ISBN 0-89672-069-1 paper ISBN 0-89672-070-5 hardbound) [8]
  9. ^ Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie, Gesamtübersicht, Bd. 4, Seite 461. [9]
  10. ^ Der Streit in der Literatur darüber, ob Kopernikus ein Deutscher oder ein Pole sei, war überflüssig und beschämend. Leider ist die ältere Literatur davon durchsetzt.University of Braunschweig

It is kind of strange that while the false "Polish natio" was apparently considered highly significant, the actual "German natio" is marginalized. For the first 200 years after his death, Copernicus was widely called a Prussian. Only in the 18th and 19th century, Polish claims where promoted, and rejected since. Scholars have stopped long time ago to attribute a nationality to him, and we should follow this example. Yet, in a separate article, we should cover the controversy on this question, which is notable, and still going on. Now we have the 21st century, Poland is member of NATO and EU and even Schengen, and the Polish government claims "Mikolaj Kopernik" as a Pole. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

  • One should at least always remember that Nicolaus Kopernicus (Kopernik) was a Pole and John Huss was a Chech. Henryk Sienkiewicz, So runs the World [11]
  • There is, for instance, the spurious dispute as to whether Nicholas Copernicus was a Pole or a German. The documents available do not solve the problem. It is at any rate certain that Copernicus was educated in schools and universities whose only language was Latin, that he knew no other mathematical and astronomical books than those written in Latin or Greek, and that he himself wrote his treatises in Latin only. Ludwig Von Mises, Omnipotent Government: The Rise of Total State and Total War, 1944 [12]
  • It is inappropriate in a serious scholarly gathering such as this to descend to the polemical debate as to whether Copernicus was a German or a Pole. There has been intense heat and little light shed on this subject in the past. - Nicholas H. Steneck, Science and Society: Past, Present, and Future - 1975

It is remarkable, though, how the use of the phrase "Copernicus a German" by Polish authors has evolved from 1823 to 2003. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, the questions stays: what nation did he enrolled while at Padua? As for "Niccolo Kopperlingk" it seems quite strange, almost funny - it seems unlikely that Copernicus whould sign like this (He always signed as Nicolaus Coppernicus). For me, he was as German as Pole. Szopen (talk) 17:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
As I understand, it is unknown where he enrolled in Padua, no records with him exist, unlike in Bologna. Why do you assume that he signed, or was recorded, with the mixed Italian-German name above? The records [13] say that the money was "A Domino Nicolao Kopperlingk", meaning "from Mister NK", in Ablative case. Same for the other folks mentioned there, like "A domino Jacobo the lansperg argentinensis diocesis". If that student would have become famous, would the French claim him as Jacques Lanspergue?-- Matthead  Discuß   19:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I don't know. Surely the behaviour is not limited to Poles. Germans claimed for example Chodowiecki, and even now article insists on calling him Polish-German painter, despite showing sources that he himself considered himself Polish. Simply I doubt that "kopperlingk" since Kopernik signed always "Coppernicus", "Copernicus", "Coppernic", never "Copperlingkus" or "Copperlinkus". "Dominus Nicolaus Kopperlingk de Thorn" seems just strange. "Koppernigk" I would believe. But "Kopperlingk" seems fake.

However: http://www.essortment.com/all/nicolauscoperni_rnvx.htm

"an associate of Luther [ Phillip Melanchton] voiced his opinion of Copernicus: "Some believe that to expound such an absurd matter, as :that Sarmatian [Polish] astronomer has done, who would move the Earth and stop the Sun is an excellent thing. :Verily, wise governors should curb such talented rashness.". Surely, it seems that if Copernicus theory would be false, Germans would happily pronounce him Polish.

Is the "Kopperlingk" signature in Copernicus' identifiable hand? Maybe it was written by some clerk rather than by the astronomer? Bureaucrats often make errors. Nihil novi (talk) 08:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Copernicus theory is false, he built it on circles (orbium), which yields imprecise results, and thus it is no big improvement for those astronomers who are interested in precise data, rather than philosophical questions like what is the center of the universe (which could have not been decided yet by observations). Only Kepler later got it right, qualitative (ellipses) and quantitative, with Keplers laws. During Copernicus' lifetime, reformation was raging on, and he was affected, as Prussia (both) adopted Protestantism. Lutherans fully relied on the bible, thus a Catholic cleric like Copernicus who seemingly contradicted the bible was highly suspicious. His employer, the Roman church, had no problem with a heliocentric theory (yet), being less dependend on the bible, but in need of a calender reform. Being surrounded by Lutherans, Copernicus was ridiculed also by a theater play in Elbing, which made him hesitate to publish so long. And as almost all Prussians had become Lutherans, leading reformers did hesitate to just call him Prussian, too (just like certain users would hardly describe me Matthead, the Wikipedian editor). I was this interaction with (fellow) Germans, many encouraging and supporting him, others criticizing and trying to isolate him (Osiander even censored his book), what made him both delay and improve his work. And it is also this interaction with other Germans which makes him "German", for sure an important figure in an important time of change (revolution) in Germany. For Copernicus, Poland and Poles were only a part of the political or fiscal aspects of his life (yes, I know, Poles consider his closure of the gates of Allenstein as fighting a major battle), while in scientific and theological matters, he interacted almost exclusively with people in/from Italy and Germany. And it is from Italy where we have that German natio record entry from, when he was still young, thus saying more about his family background than later records. While modern names are fixed shortly after birth, he and others still could change names, just like we can alter our signatures and email adresses. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
When preparing monetary reform, he however advocated accpepting of the POlish monetary system (which was adopted by Royal Prussia in 1528, following the reform in the Crown in 1526). Of course he also criticised part of Polish reform. He proposed money with Polish eagle from one side, and Prussian coat of arms from second side in Prussia, and with Polish eagle from one side, and Hohenzollern eagle from second side in Ducal Prussia. In political and fiscal matters he interacted a lot with Poland and Poles. His first poem was dedicated to Polish king. He cooperated with Bernard Wapowski when creating map of POlish crown. He travelled a lot to Poznań, Piotrków, Cracow, Vilnius.
About language, Polish wikipedia gives nice example of Dabrowski (you know, the guy from Polish national anthem) who to his death never learned correct Polish and when speaking with Poniatowski was using German -- nevertheless, it's hard to call Dabrowski anything else than true Polish patriot. He has Polish relatives (families of Konopaccy, Działyńscy, Kostka - though e.g. Działyńscy, recent newcomers from Greater Poland, while speaking Polish considered themselves Prussians).
Szopen asked:

Does Koyre wrote that Polish natio enlisted EXACTLY at time of Copernicus arriving in Bologne?

He doesn't say explicitly that the Polish natio was in existence at the time when Copernicus was at Bologna. However, it would have been very remiss of him to cite the list of nations in the way he did unless he had very good reasons for believing that it was. Nevertheless, just to make sure, I have now consulted the source Koyré cited, The Universities of Europe in the Middle Ages, Vol I, by Hastings Rashdall. Rashdall says (p.156) that in 1265 there were 14 ultramontane 'nations' at the University of Bologna and gives the list which Koyré used. Further on (p.183) Rashdall says that in 1432 there were 16 ultramontane 'nations', still including both the German and the Polish. Since he appears to have obtained his information from primary sources, there doesn't appear to me to be much doubt that there was a Polish 'nation' at Bologna during the same period when Copernicus was.
—David Wilson (talk · cont)
I stand corrected. I consulted the book by Centkiewicz "Rzeczpospolite uczonych..." , in which he states "similarly as other Poles he joined German natio, called also English natio...". It seems that I falsely jumped to conclusion that there was no POlish natio in Bologna. Indeed, the Centkiewicz sentence clearly suggested to me this fact; but Centkiewicz didn't use the word "all Poles", only suggested that. Szopen (talk) 17:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV and Dispute Resolution

Unless we can resolve the nationality/ethnicity issue on this talk page, I propose requesting a formal mediation as outlined in WP:DR.

First, because the neutrality of the lead paragraph is disputed, I’m putting a POV message at the top of the article (I’m not changing any content at this time in a good faith effort to resolve this issue, even though I believe that the lead paragraph is incorrect).

I’m putting forth my reasons, to be used in a dispute resolution, unless we can resolve them on this talk page, as to why Copernicus should be identified as being Polish in the first paragraph. I also discuss a possible change in the "Nationality and ethnicity" section.

1) Difference between Nationality and Ethnicity

When a person is identified as American or Brazilian (in the English Wikipedia and most other sources), it usually means that he/she is/was a citizen of that country. As I’ve noted previously, see the following examples: Eduard von Simson (German nationality, Jewish ethnicity); Carlos Slim (Mexican nationality, Lebanese ethnicity); Lucy Liu (American nationality; Chinese ethnicity)).

Because Copernicus was born in Poland, died in Poland, and fought for Poland (per the article, "Also, the fact that Copernicus oversaw the defense of Olsztyn Castle at the head of Royal Polish forces when the town was besieged by the Teutonic Knights, supports the claim that his bond with the Kingdom of Poland was much stronger than his German ties."), he was a Polish national.

2) The Neutral Point of View

Per the WP:NPOV, “All articles must adhere to Wikipedia's neutrality policy, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view. Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them.”

Majority viewpoint: The most reliable and significant sources, representing the majority viewpoint, state that Copernicus was a Polish national. These include the International Astronomical Union, Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Encarta, and Encyclopedia Americana.

Minority viewpoint: The minority viewpoint is that Copernicus’s nationality is uncertain and some significant minority viewpoints do not label him as Polish, but rather omit his nationality, such as the German Encylopedia Brockhaus.

The tiny-minority viewpoint is that Copernicus was a German national.

3) Proposed Changes

There is no dispute about his ethnicity, because it is uncertain. However, while his nationality was debated in the past, the majority viewpoint today is that he was a Polish national. As far as I know, his nationality is not being debated today in any reputable scientific or “historical” circles today (for example, per the article, “Current German sources call the controversy, as reflected in the older literature, superfluous and shameful.”). However, because there is a minority viewpoint (and not a fringe viewpoint) that does not identify Copernicus as a Polish national, I believe that the section “Nationality and Ethnicity” is correct as it written now, although I would tend to lean more toward the previous version of the first paragraph, “his ethnicity is uncertain” (and not “his nationality and ethnicity is uncertain”), because while his nationality was disputed in the past, the majority viewpoint today is that he was Polish (note that both majority and minority viewpoints about his nationality are discussed in detail in this section).

However, the article correctly states that he is “generally regarded as Polish”. Again, this is the majority viewpoint and the neutral point of view.

Thus, Copernicus should be labeled as “a Polish astronomer” in the first paragraph.

Thanks, and I’d appreciate other views, whether supportive or not, that we can put forth before a formal mediation. Astronomer28 (talk) 21:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I first expressed myself on this issue, several times, in the entry #Shame on you above. Before anyone commences any type of formal dispute resolution, I suggest that they carefully study the LONG history of this dispute, including the article's block logs, which document several blocks because of edit warring on this issue. Forgive me for repeating what I said above in #Dispute resolution in response to a prior suggestion of mediation.
  • Mediation is hopeless in this particular case because the disputants, in good faith, cannot accept a position contrary to their own on Copernicus's nationality. The dispute over whether Copernicus's nationality was Polish or German has raged on Wikipedia—although not in the generally accepted scholarship on the subject—since last year at least. It is documented on this Talk page and this page's archives and the subpage Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality and the subpage's three archives.Finell (Talk) 22:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Before commencing any form of dispute resolution, I suggest adding many more English language reliable sources on Copernicus's nationality: other encyclopedias, science histories, and biographies. Further, the dispute to be resolved should not be confined to identifying nationality in the lead and the infobox. It should also extend to the "Nationality and ethnicity" section. That section violates WP:NPOV, particularly in its first sentence, by giving undue weight to the alleged dispute. No other standard reference work of which I am aware even acknowledges the existence of a dispute over Copernicus's nationality, let alone devotes significant space to it. Therefore, this section should be reduced to perhaps 12 lines, with appropriate mention of the minority claim of German nationality supported by reliable sources. Also, the article is punctuated with other material that has no place in an article on Copernicus, but is in this article solely to bolster arguments favoring German or Polish nationality; these should be addressed in the dispute resolution process as well. I still believe that mediation would be hopeless. If there is to be resort to formal dispute resolution, it should be directly to WP:ARB. Finell (Talk) 22:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The "Polish astronomer" case is lost, no matter how relentlessly it is pushed by a few, clinching to outdated and/or sloppy encyclopedias or other less than reliable sources. Insisting on prominently mentioning "Polish" based on alleged "citizenship" is misleading. If anything, his citizenship was "Borussus" or "Torinensis", he was described as such (but never "Polonus"!) for a quarter of a millenium, before the "Polish natio" hoax was promoted by 19th century Polish nationalists in exile. In similar fashion, the categories for Franz Kafka and Elias Canetti currently hide the fact that they became famous for writing in German, while insinuating they wrote in Slavic languages. Same for Copernicus, who undisputedly wrote in Latin and German, but not Polish. This language was first printed as late as 1513 anyway, when Copernicus was 40, see Hortulus Animae. Printing is one of the cultural achievements brought to Poland - actually to multi-cultural cities like Cracow - by Germans. Copernicus has mainly cooperated with German astronomers - as he was one of them. He used astronomical data gathered in Nuremberg, and then published there, thus could be described as a "Franconian astronomer by choice". Anyway, there were barely any "Category:Polish astronomers" worth mentioning for a long time before, during, and after Copernicus life time. Brudzewo was one of many who lectured based on Peurbachs works, Lubieniecki was a part-time illustrator of comets while in German exile, Sylvius made instruments abroad in Europe, while Hevelius is a very similar case: a native German speaker who is claimed by Poles based on some vague "citizenship". So, is it the policy of Wikipedia to give in to nationalists who, due to shortage of home-grown celebrities, try to "abduct" some from abroad to boost national pride? I guess some official arbitration could be helpful to stop them, and to revert what they have achieved. Did I mention the List of Poles yet? -- Matthead  Discuß   03:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Matthead, if you would for a second step outside your nationalist circle, you would notice that first Polish language print appeared in 1475 actually - but those were three single prayers. And it was in Glogow (Glogau) in Lower Silesia, at that time predominantly POlish. In kingdom of Poland, irst printed work was by German Straube, but first printing house was founded by Turzon, which was not German BTW. Similarly, Copernicus was called Polish astronomer long time BEFORE XIX century. If you would want to describe him as "Prussian" that's fine, but "Prussian" in times of Copernicus was not equal to "German". Szopen (talk) 08:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You can list 1,000 English language encyclopedias - it doesn't change the fact that the German or Polish question is not cut and dry. To avoid controversy, Anglophone editors decide "well it's in Poland today, so let's call him Polish" and in one fell swoop 800+ years of history and complexity is swept under the carpet as if it had never existed.
My personal opinion is that he is both and neither nationality/ethnicity. I think the article is just fine as it is. It says that his nationality is uncertain in modern terms. It may not please nationalists or propagandists, but it is true.Udibi (talk) 07:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Nicolaus Copernicus was called Polish astronomer by some since in 1726 Nicolai Papadopoli- Nicolaus Papadopolus of Italy published a sloppy book about a university [14] where Papadopoli claims to have seen (or have been told of) the Copernicus entry in the Natio Polonia It is known that the 'Natio Polonia' did not exist at that time. However this and many other "sloppy, fraudulent facts" by Papadopoli were exposed by Carlo Malagola (books: [15]) and by others. But just like Wikipedia mirrors fraudulent or false statements and multiplies them hundredfolds, "this fraudulent fact of Copernicus at Natio Polonia" just does not go away, even after more of a hundred years of exposure. How dangerous it can be in 'overlooking or not paying enough attention to detailed facts' and 'going along with propaganda, or giving in to harrassment, even when the truth is out there' (to make it NPOV) can be seen in the masses going along with the statements of "weapons of mass 'deception'". MfG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.64.78 (talk) 19:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

All of you, please, please, PLEASE don't renew this debate. It is useless and hopeless. No one will convince the other side of anything, and those who might agree with you that C is German or Polish or neither already agree with you. So just stop the argument, PLEASE. If you wish to bolster your argument for any position on nationality or ethnicity, and do something productive with your time and energy, bolster the article's "Nationality and ethnicity" section with additional reliable sources in support of your position. Don't limit yourself to online sources: go to the library and add reputable print sources. Don't assume that others will immediately see that your particular position correct. Then you will be in better position to prevail in any form of dispute resolution or peer review that may occur. That is the way to put an end to this years-long dispute and edit war. Once the nationality issue is settled by a much broader consensus than the present combatants, productive work to improve the article and someday reach WP:FA can go forward. Copernicus deserves much better than what this article has to say about him. Finell (Talk) 20:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment made by a sockpuppet of a banned user. It has been hidden per WP:BAN. --wL<speak·check> 22:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
If conversations between you and anyone else hadn't invariably turned into accusations by you of bad faith and of other bad motives, perhaps you wouldn't be banned also from this wikipedia - and, of course, but for your sockpuppetry. I think it's ironic using the term nationalism while trying to make a famous person part of one's own nation. Nobody (sane) nowadays thinks Germany has any rights to parts of Poland. Unless Finell disagrees again, I'd like comments in the future, in particular such personal attacks, of User:Serafin be removed from this page, as per Wikipedia:BAN#Enforcement_by_reverting_edits. Sciurinæ (talk) 23:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
If the admins determine that 64.7.140.82 (talk · contribs) is a banned user or a banned user's sockpuppet, I have no objection to deleting his or her posts. Otherwise, I will object, and will take action if the post is deleted without such a determination, as I have done before. I STILL believe that continuing this argument, by all sides, is pointless. Likewise, simply restoring "Polish" to the lead is pointless, because it will just be reverted by someone who disagrees. Finell (Talk) 01:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


I can see no point in debating the issue - Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place for original research. If sources like Britannica state Copernicus nationality as Polish, thus it should be stated here as well. His ethnicity however should be covered in a separate section. Dawidbernard (talk) 12:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Elegant compromise: Prussian astronomer

Other sources (see older discussions) say he was German. Therefore I think a good compromise would be to say he was a Prussian. Copernicus was born in Prussia, lived in Prussia, died in Prussia, fought for Prussia, and identified himself as Prussian. At his lifetime he was repeatedly called "Borussus mathematicus" (=Prussian mathematician). Therefore he should be correctly described as a Prussian national, pure and simple. It is the perfect compromise, and the most accurate description. Any thoughts? Der Eberswalder (talk) 13:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That is not a compromise. Finell (Talk) 22:19, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
But Prussian in times of Copernicus meant something different than in our times. That's why it would only create other controversies and would not end endless quarelling. Szopen (talk) 08:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I see, you mean the term "Prussian" is in most people's minds still identified with the huge state of Prussia instead of the tiny region of Prussia? If so, then we have to find a workaround to avoid such a misunderstanding. Perhaps by putting Poland and Prussia (region) into the same first sentence? Or perhaps using formulation similar to other Wikipedia examples like:
  • Reinhold Messner (born September 17, 1944) is a mountaineer and explorer from South Tyrol in Italy, often cited as the greatest mountain climber of all time. (NC was an ... from Royal Prussia in Poland) or
  • Nikola Tesla (Serbian Cyrillic: Никола Тесла) (10 July 1856 – 7 January 1943) was an inventor, physicist, mechanical engineer, and electrical engineer. Born in Smiljan, Croatian Krajina, Military Frontier he was an ethnic Serb subject of the Austrian Empire and later became an American citizen. (NC was ... Born in Thorn, Royal Prussia he was an ethnic German subject of the King of Poland) or
  • keeping it as it is, without initial adjective, and elaborating further down in the article, as it is now the case or
  • does anybody has another idea?
     ::Der Eberswalder (talk) 12:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
"From Prussia in Poland" - well, I wouldn't object to that. Szopen (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses current terminology and understanding for nationality, as it does for most everything. According to Wikipedia, and to all scholars today, Leonardo da Vinci's nationality was Italian, even though there was no such thing as Italy when Leonardo lived, and Leonardo never would have thought of himself as a Italian. Today, saying Prussian nationality would connote German. That is not a compromise. That is a POV that is contrary to substantially all scholarship on Copernicus. Finell (Talk) 23:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Amen. Nihil novi (talk) 00:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Da Vinci is undisputed, Copernicus is disputed. Therefore I tried to find similarly complicated examples, like those of Nicola Tesla or Reinhold Messner, to have something which we could use for consensus finding. Do you have another example? Der Eberswalder (talk) 07:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Never mind, there are already a few more examples: Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars/Ethnic_feuds 79.97.2.243 (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Finell, all scholarship on Copernicus agrees that he was most probably an ethnic German, so Prussian would be correct and NPOV. But I do not insist on that. And I agree with you that any formulation has to make clear that Prussia (region) is meant and not Prussia. 79.97.2.243 (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Hasn't this argument been going on for 6 months or more? Instead of both sides trying to get content in that others object to, why not just say he spoke German & lived in an area now part of Poland? --JimWae (talk) 00:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Answer to first question: More, much more. Answer to second question: No. Finell (Talk) 01:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
To the second part: why not? And seriously, if you tell me to "look in the archives"... --clpo13(talk) 02:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Because he also spoke Latin and likely Italian and Polish. Nihil novi (talk) 02:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
So language is a poor way to judge nationality. But shooting down compromise suggestions without much explanation is a poor way to resolve this. Personally, I don't think it matters what Copernicus was. It's not that important compared to the scientific contributions he made. But that's just me. --clpo13(talk) 02:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree 100%, but this needs to be resolved somehow, or else this issue will resurface again and again. Der Eberswalder (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
  • So then list ALL the languages he spoke - remarking on what his FIRST language (if known) was -- & if he spoke or merely wrote Latin --JimWae (talk) 05:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Intermediate status of consensus finding:
It seems that the formulation similar to the Reinhold Messner article NC was an ... from Royal Prussia in Poland has the potential to become a consensus. Is that an accurate assumption? Der Eberswalder (talk) 07:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. Because there always be German nationalist who will remove "in Poland" part and Polish nationalist who will insert "Polish" or remove "Royal Prussia". But I would support that version. Szopen (talk) 10:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, we will see what happens when this version is put in. :) Der Eberswalder (talk) 17:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What's the point?

This entire talk page is really only about Copernicus's nationality. And it really seems to get some people's tempers up. While when we look at his life, the fact is not really of great importance. His achievments are what the article should concentrate on. It really is quite impossible to say now, who Copernicus was in terms of nationality. I think defining him as coming from Torun/Thorn is quite enough. Anyone can look up the city and see that like many in this part of Europe it has changed hands quite often. And as far as linking, it's quite ok to link him both under notable Poles and notable Germans, that will just help people looking through these sites to find the article. Quite frankly, being a Pole myself, I can;t stand these endless discussions on Copernicus and on the more recent Marie Curie-Sklodowska. I know this country has had precious little notable names to date, despite it's size, but insted of writing endless fights on these two topics, I think we should rather try to change that fact at least nowadays. Face the truth guys (a little off topic to Poles) our universities still stink, in eighteen years since communism we managed to zero western standard universities and tones of impresive western standard shopping malls... this route will not lead us to more notable names :D . Many people choose other countries and take other nationalities to do their science works (like Sklodowska did) and we keep fussing over these two notable names... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.238.66.254 (talk) 23:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Point well made

As polymath but also as a person of faith, Kopernik/Copernicus would have thought of himself as catholic/Catholic, hence universal, although I imagine he felt most at home in scholarly and ecclesiastical circles where Latin was the common tongue. His vision of the universe and of human society was much vaster than that of many people today. If I may add a word of consolation to the Polish author of the above (I who am of American nationality, Polish/Huguenot ethnicity, and musician/historian by education), today's Poland is broadening its sense of belonging (e.g., EU membership), and while its universities may not yet meet the highest western standards, Poland has had and continues to have a rich musical life, which is still making a widely-esteemed contribution to western and world culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guido arretinus (talk • contribs) 16:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the issue is "nationality" - it ethnicity. And, if it’s not your history being stolen, why would you care? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barking1 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protection proposed

Considering the amount of controversial edits made by anonymous or newly registered editors, some of whom are likely socks, I'd suggest applying WP:SEMI to this page. Any comments? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Nihil novi (talk) 01:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
It has been semi-protected since 23:51, 26 March 2008, at my request. We do not want full protection because that makes progress on other aspects of the article impossible. Finell (Talk) 05:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I want full protection, as this is the only way to stop this "was POLISH" vandalism. We can work on a dummy article, e.g Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/draft, and when consensus is reached, ask an admin to edit the real article accordingly. -- Matthead  Discuß   22:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
So, everybody happy watching (or taking part in) editwars? -- Matthead  Discuß   23:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of "comprise"

A recent edit had replaced the text "the urban elites of Royal Prussia comprised German-speaking burghers" with "the urban elites of Royal Prussia were comprised of German-speaking burghers". Since the latter form is still widely regarded as incorrect usage, I have reverted it back to the former, which is (as far as I can tell) universally considered correct by all authoritative sources on Enlish usage. The World Health Oranisation's English Style Guide, for instance, says "comprised of" is "incorrect", The Guardian Style Guide says it's "wrong", and The Economist's Style Guide lists it under "common solecisms".

While the on-line American English style guides, the Columbia Guide to Standard American Enlish Usage and The American Heritage® Book of English Usage, are less prescriptive, they also acknowledge that "comprised of" is widely regarded as incorrect.

It therefore seems to me that if the verb "comprise" is going to be used at all in the article, then it should be used in a form which is universally regarded as correct, rather than one which is still widely considered dubious. An alternative would be to replace it with a perhaps less contentious synonym: "the urban elites of Royal Prussia consisted of German-speaking burghers" —David Wilson (talk · cont) 15:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The chief advantage of "comprised," when used correctly, is its succinctness: 1 word instead of 2, and — in the past tense, at least — 2 syllables instead of the 4 in "consisted of." An encyclopedia should be succinct, precise, clear and unequivocal. Nihil novi (talk) 22:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nicolaus Copernicus, students and burghers of Cracow

History of Kraków at the time of Nicolaus Copernicus. Cracow, established and rebuilt since 1257 with Magdeburg rights self government, had become a Hanseatic city with German-language burghers and city guild government, where many Germans established new businesses. Such was the situation when, Copernicus studied in Cracow, because his sister, married to Bertel Gartner lived in Crakow and one of Copernicus' grandfathers and uncles had moved businesses to several Hanseatic cities. In 1502 Conrad Celtes named [16]Cracow as one of four cities in Germany.

13 April 2008

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.201.57 (talk) 23:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Cracow was not "established" or "rebuilt" in 1257. It get new set set of rights. Quoting Celtus to prove Cracow was not Polish city is laughable. Similarly I could quote CNN to prove that Poland is bordering with Switzerland (or was it Slovenia?) Szopen (talk) 07:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Cracow founded in 1257 You may want to read up a little more on history. A number of book state Cracow was founded in 1257 [17] 14 April 2008

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.201.57 (talk) 18:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

If cCracow was founded in 1257, then what was sieged by Mongols in 1241? Or, for that matter, what meant "Cracow" mentioned as early as X century? Cracow was not found in 1257. In 1257 it got new set of rights. Szopen (talk) 12:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pointless

The pointless debate about Copernicus's nationality should be banned. Note that he was in the German Nation at university in Italy. See the MacTutor article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 09:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Remove Neutrality tag

It is laughable to quote Celtus to show that Cracow was a German city. At the time (around 1500) Cracow was the capital of Poland and the main residence of the King of Poland and had been for 400 years. Note that Celtus also states that Bohemia is the center of Germany. Prague was for a time the residence of the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, starting with Charles IV Hapsburg who made Prague his capital (he had inherited Bohemia as well as Luxembourg). Is that sufficient reason to call the Czech Republic part of Germany?

I note that as it presently stands, the Copernicus article is totally neutral, quoting all sources. This should be sufficient to withdraw the "The neutrality of this article is disputed." tag., and block further changes.

Syrenab (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The article overemphasizes the question of his nationality, which none of the major encyclopedias, reference works, or biographies even recognize as an issue. It is analogous to saying that an article on cosmology (I do not mean one on the history of cosmology) is neutral if it gives equal weight to the currently accepted science and the Ptolemaic system. Further, the article overemphasizes surrounding historical events that did not directly involve Copernicus, but are over-represented in the article to bolster someone's case that he is Polish or German or Prussian. As a result of all the editorial energy devoted to this non-issue, the real content of the article suffers from neglect. If editors devoted themselves to researching and citing the most widely respected sources on Copernicus's nationality, instead of just shouting and one another, this non-issue would disappear and the article would state his nationality, like it does for practically every other historical figure. (Would who ever keeps making quickly reverted edits with the comment "COPERNICUS was POLISH" please go to the library, come back with 20 sources to support that statement, and cite them in the article?) That would be neutral. What we have now is not neutral because it does not accurately represent the weight of scholarly authority; what we have now is POV pushing, and it is an embarrassment to Wikipedia. Finell (Talk) 05:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
If you (Finall) are referring to the last section of the article "Nationality and ethnicity", I agree that this section is unnecessary and would best be deleted, or perhaps made a completely separate article. As it stands it is of little importance and detracts from the overall article.
The rest of the article is all totally factual and based on documented facts. I find nothing that needs to be eliminated.
What do we need to do to eliminate the last section, delete the tag from the head of the article, and get on with more important work?
Syrenab (talk) 23:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
We disagree. The Nationality section is a mess and needs to be rewritten and drastically shortened, to correspond to the extent of the alleged dispute over Copernicus's nationality. Extraneous history of Poland and Prussia also does not belong in this article, but it is put there by editors seeking to amass evidence to support their respective positions that Copernicus was German or Polish. Once this dispute is resolved, this matter can be cleaned out. The Neutrality tag stays so long as the neutrality of the article is in dispute. Finell (Talk) 07:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Solution

I recommend to follow the example of the Polish Wikipedia and remove the last section "Nationality and ethnicity" from the main Copernicus article and make it a separate article. As it stands now, this section is of little importance and detracts from the overall article about one of the great scientists of the world.

The rest of the article is all totally factual and based on documented facts. I find nothing that needs to be eliminated.

Will the Administrator eliminate this last section, then delete the tag from the head of the article and place a block to prevent further fruitless discussions, which will never be resolved to everybody's satisfaction?

I would like to remind everyone, that in the times under discussion, rulers (kings, princes, dukes, bishops) determined boundaries of states by force of arms and treated provinces as if they were personal property, passing them on to sons or giving them away as dowries. Nationality, as such, was of secondary importance. Most literature, especially scientific, was written in Latin. We have no way of knowing for sure what language was spoken by Copernicus. Certainly at the university, whether in Cracow or later Bologna, studies were in Latin. At home it is likely that a Germanic dialect was used as well as a Polish dialect (the latter being the language of the bulk of people residing in the regions of Torun and Cracow). Incidentally, today most Irish people speak English, but become very offended if someone calls them English!

The French Wikipedia handles the matter very well, IMHO. It states "...since the 19thC the nationality of Copernicus has become a subject of controversy. Today he is generally considered Polish, in part because of his place of birth and his origins. Nevertheless, nationality plays a secondary role and, in reality, Copernicus should be considered as being German and Polish at the same time."

Syrenab (talk) 15:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The Nationality section does not warrant a separate article; it does not warrant as much space as it has now. Further, because it directly affects the rest of the article (why a nationality is or is not stated for Copernicus), removing it to a separate article would be an impermissible WP:FORK. Even it were made a separate article, Wikipedia policy requires that the separate article be fairly summarized in the main Copernicus bio. Finally, admins do not dictate article content. Article content is decided by the consensus of editors who work on an article. Admins, when they act as such, enforce Wikipedia standards of behavior and policies, such as the policy that requires editing by consensus and not permitting an editor to remove a controversy tag until the controversy is resolved. Finell (Talk) 09:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
In accordance with your suggestion, I have revised the entire "Nationality" section. Hopefully this will take care of the matter, and the Tag may be removed from the beginning of the article.
However I still think that at least a partial block should be kept on this aryicle. I note that again yesterday "Polish" has been added to the first paragraph, and again reverted. What a waste of time for all concerned!!

Syrenab (talk) 23:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested references and sources have been added to the re-written Nationality and ethnicity and I believe that the Tag should be removed. Furthermore, all other sections of this article have had all POV matter removed, leaving onlky fully documented subject matter. Therefore I think that the Tag at the head of the article should also be removed.

Syrenab (talk) 16:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Many of the statements in the Nationality section are still unsourced and also controversial. Furthermore, a wikilink cannot be a source. A list of treaties is not sufficient to make a statement about what was happening where Copernicus lived when he lived there. Please see WP:CITE and WP:RS for guidance. Also, the Family section says (with a citation and quote) that Toruń was "in the Royal Prussia region of the Kingdom of Poland". The the Nationality section says (with no citation) that Copernicus "spent most of his life in the C", which seems to contradict statement in the Family section. Finell (Talk) 19:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I am only trying to comply with your request for sources. OK, I'll find another list of examples to show that boundaries of provinces changed frequently as a result of various events.
Wikipedia's policy against original research prohibits us from drawing a new conclusion from raw data. The article cannot say, in substance, that nationality was unimportant in Copernicus's day because of rapidly changing borders without citation of a reliable source who reaches that conclusion based upon that reason. By the way, there is no shortage of sources who identify Copernicus's nationality and the nationality of others Europeans of the same era, so the conclusion itself is dubious. The only reason this article does not identify Copernicus's nationality is because of edit warring. Finell (Talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand your objection - "Royal Prussia region of the Kingdom of Poland" is exactly the same as "the Polish province of Royal Prussia". just using different words, so you are nit-picking.
I am not trying to nit-pick. The first statement says Royal Prussia is part of Poland. The second statement says Poland is part of Royal Prussia. The two statements say the opposite. Which was the whole and which was the part? Finell (Talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

What else is controversial? Please tell me specifically and I'll try to correct or find sources.

It is all controversial, given this article's edit history. I will put tags in the section where citations are needed and remove citations that do not support the statements made. Finell (Talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Syrenab (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


OK, Finell, I had not noticed that someone else had inserted the "of" between Province and Royal Prussia, after I had written this sentence. I have corrected that. Where available, I have inserted references for EVERY sentence as you requested (including reverting non-wiki references that you had DELETED) and deleted all other sentences for which I don't have available references. BTW, I am surprised that you seem to think that it is impermissible to write a single sentence without providing a reference. I don't find this to be the requirement in any other article in Wikipedia, English, German, French or Polish.

That's it for me. I tried, in good faith, to provide a resolution of this matter in a simple NPOV manner. I have no more time to spend on this subject.

Syrenab (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

... and yet another good faith editor is driven away from this article, while I had chosen to wait and see how things will be going without me interfering. Same business as usual, the relentless COPERNICUS was POLISH pushing of course. Apart from that, deleting a 9 Kilobytes of text and sources, then sticking 10 fact tags into the carcass did not help either, I have to say.
The proposal made at the beginning of this section is not new, yet IMHO still good, but it was rejected several times by the "community". English and German wikipedias once had separate articles to cover the pesky nationality issue (there's still Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality), but both Copernicus' nationality (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Copernicus' nationality in Nov 2005, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Copernicus' nationality (second nomination) in Jan 2006) and de:Nationalität von Kopernikus (in March 2006) were deleted two years ago. German content was later retrieved and stored at de:Benutzer:Plehn/Nationalität von Kopernikus. Polish Wiki has pl:Kwestia narodowości Kopernika since 2005. While maybe his nationality alone itself does not merit an article, I'd say that the 200+ year old dispute outside of wikipedia, and now also several years within, is old and notable enough to be wrapped up in an article (again). Wikipedia has dozen of articles covering a controversy (like the eye-popping Super Bowl XXXVIII halftime show controversy, but does not yet cover the (astronomical) Copernican controversy which has 383 Google books hits. Wikipedia really has it priorities sorted well here - not! Google Books have also over 40 hits for Copernicus controversy nationality which should be enough to source the fact that his nationality was and is controversial. Guess when this was written: "Germany is not perhaps the most suitable occasion for reviving an ancient controversy as to his nationality, and though Copernicus was born at Thorn, the troubled history of that corner of Europe makes it difficult to speak with any certainty about his ancestry". It was in the very first year of Nature (journal), in 1869. [18] [19]. BTW, one has to point out that the author, Sir Joseph Norman Lockyer, an English scientist and astronomer, speaks about Germany in 1869 even though some Wiki editors insist there was no such thing as a Germany before 1871. -- Matthead  Discuß   23:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Would an admin please restore the last uncompromised version, with 54,245 bytes (compared to the current 46k fragment), and then full protect it to keep our dear COPERNICUS was POLISH friend away? Thanks in advance! -- Matthead  Discuß   23:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know that all the stuff about TV satellites, banknotes and King Ludwig I of Bavaria is particularly contributory to this question. Nihil novi (talk) 05:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
But mentioning Poland or Polish about 18 times, including "Polish 10-złoty coins", is particularly contributory to this question? Compared to this are 3 mentions of German, and 10 of Prussia(n) (all in the main article, without the sections Notes and below). The political connection of Prussia to the Polish King is totally overrepresented, e.g. compared to the more complicated life of Leonardo da Vinci. His places of birth and death are given as "present-day Italy" and "present-day France", while for Copernicus, the contemporary names Thorn and Frauenburg are only in parentheses, and the modern day Polish names, unfamiliar to Copernicus, are highlighted. To become neutral, the frequent mentioning of Polish/Poland and the gratuitous name dropping of present day city names in Polish needs to be cut down. Why not pointing out, for a change, that he was born in Thorn, studied in Cracow, lived in Allenstein, Heilsberg, Mehlsack, Frauenburg, and communicated in German with the Duke of Prussia in Königsberg, the former Teutonic Knight and "enemy"? Polish POV and vanity has skewed this article for too long. For example, the info box has 10(!) entries in Fields, among them military commander, which is ridiculous, not only compared to da Vinci. The Jagiellonian University is listed - it was called Cracow Academy for centuries to come, and he did not earn any degree there anyway. Academically of low significance, but highly important to Polish national pride. -- Matthead  Discuß   06:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
You will please note that the banknote that I referred to was a Polish banknote. And I think that not only Polish historians will differ with your assessment of Kraków University, the second oldest university in Central Europe and one of the oldest in Europe, and founded before any German university, as "academically of low significance." Nevertheless, many Polish scholars have also studied abroad, in Copernicus' time and since, often at German universities (though Copernicus himself did not study at a German university).
Copernicus also did not receive a degree at Bologna or Padua Universities. He obtained his doctorate (in law) at Ferrara. Nihil novi (talk) 07:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
No degree in Bologna? Magister, 18 June 1499. It was at Bologna were he learned most of law and astronomy, and where he in 1496 was signed in as Dominus Nicolaus Kopperlingk de Thorn in the German natio (a fact that keeps dropping out of the article). He did not graduate after his additional studies of medicine in Padua (old reports [20] about a doctorate there were, like the Polish natio, based on the Papadopoli tall tale), but then practised medicine for the benefit of his compatriots, which is arguably better than getting maltreated by someone with M.D.. And apparently, Marcin Kromer described him in 1581 as artiae et medicinae doctor anyway. To repeat it again: compared to his Italian studies, the early ones in Cracow were "academically of low significance." Thanks for proving my point regarding Polish pride, though. I'm not going to discuss the Austrian history of the Cracow Academy (Universität Krakau), the latter name gratuitously added with greetings to our Krolewiec-disseminating friend. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Your source concerning Copernicus' alleged Bologna "Magister, 18 June 1499" refers to "a document executed on June 18, 1499, by the... Bolognese notary, Girolamo Belvisi, in the presence of Copernicus as a witness. In this... document the notary called Copernicus magister..." That is not incontrovertible evidence of the existence of a master's degree. But if you do find actual documentation of a master's degree, please add it to the Wikipedia article.
Angus Armitage writes in The World of Copernicus (p. 63) that at Bologna the law students "were grouped into 'nations' roughly corresponding to the parts of Europe from which they hailed. Thus Copernicus was enrolled in the German 'nation'..." Copernicus' enrollment in the German "nation" documents his geographical, not necessarily his ethnic much less his national, origin.
Marcin Kromer's 1581 Frombork Cathedral memorial tablet, calling Copernicus "artiae et medicinae doctor," again is not itself an actual medical degree. If Copernicus held a doctorate in something other than law, please provide the documentation.
You wrote earlier disparagingly of Kraków University having originally been called the "Kraków Academy." An institution that trains physicians in the United States today is called a "Medical School." In Poland the corresponding institution is rendered into English as "Medical University." Does that make the American institution inferior to the Polish one?
And what has "Polish pride" to do with all this? Nihil novi (talk) 19:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Matthead, why do you keeping mentioning "German natio" when it was already explained to you that ALL POLISH STUDENTS at that time signed into the German natio - there was NO POLISH NATIO in Bologna at that time. Natio was not a declaration of nationality but a student corporation. Szopen (talk) 07:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] PLEASE BLOCK FIRST SECTION

This has become completely ridiculous. Will the administrators place a total block on the first section of this article. Toiday alone there have been two revisions and two reverts. What a waste of everybody's time!

Syrenab (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. And to the reality of the 200+ year old dispute. Maybe you should have checked the article's history and its talk to be warned beforehand? -- Matthead  Discuß   10:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Things I wanted to add, need to discuss first

Hi everyone. I just changed something but was reverted by Ckatz with the comment "should be discussed, as well as reworded to avoid analysis" (see [21] for reference). So, my change in section 14 was as follows:

"Both the nationality and ethnicity of Copernicus are disputed and has been described in various publications as Polish, German, or both. However, given that he was born, lived, and died in the now historical region of Prussia and described himself as Prussian [1] he can be safely called a Prussian (in this sense only, not confusing it with the later only partly related Kingdom of Prussia), thus avoiding the dispute because Prussian at that time was distinct from both Polish and German. The part of Prussia he lived in was at first a Polish protectorate and later incorporated into the Kingdom of Poland."

Any objections regarding factuality? Any thoughts how to formulate it better? Der Eberswalder (talk) 19:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Without addressing for now the substance of what you wrote, the writing is not clear, grammatical English. Also, every statement in the passage will require citation of WP:RSs. The one citation that you do supply is not sufficient; it does not indentify the author of the statement that supports the proposition that Copernicus described himself as Prussian, and the results of a Google search is not an adequate URL for a publication. A fragment from a Google search is not a substitute for real library research. Lastly, the thrust of the statement is not WP:NPOV because it does not accurately reflect the consensus of reliable sources on the subject of Copernicus's nationality. Finell (Talk) 23:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, we definitely need reliable sources. What's wrong with the English? Der Eberswalder (talk) 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, Der Eberswalder, but I do not have the time now to do a rewrite, and a detailed critique would take even longer. I mean no personal offense, and I do not even know whether English is your primary language. In my opinion, the writing is below Wikipedia's standards. Perhaps you know someone who is known as a good writer editor. Or you could ask for assistance from the WikiProject League of Copyeditors. I am limiting my Wikipedia participation to a minimum now because of work pressure. Again, I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful now. Finell (Talk) 12:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


The part of Prussia where he lived was not a Polish protectorate but a part of the Polish kingdom with significant autonomy. Szopen (talk) 07:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, protectorate is not the correct term for this. But my point is, in the time frame between 1466 and 1569 the relationship Poland - Royal Prussia was like the relationship England - Scotland between 1603 and 1707. One was not a part of the other but both had the same monarch (personal union), which only later developed into a real union with one state. Der Eberswalder (talk) 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
NO, that's wrong. Prussia was not in personal union with Poland, Prussia was PART, a province, of Polish kingdom. The treaties are very specific about that: Prussia is "INCORPORATED" into Poland. E.g. Every Polish king authomatically took over the Prussia (and all titles which were tied with that possession). Polish king issued his laws as Polish king. Prussians had a seats for them in Polish parliament (they didn't took it, but as it was put to them by Siennicki during negotations before UoL: you had the rights, who cares you didn't made use of them). In contrast, in Lithuania, which was in personal union, king issued rights as Lithuanian duke, and treaties were very specific about Lithuania is not part of Polish kingdom.

The view about "personal union" is typical German POV. Note that some POlish kings did in times try to treat Royal Prussia as if it was in personal union with Poland, which caused constant complains from Polish parliament (again, Siennicki: "we are most disturbed by your Majesty understanding that your Majesty keeps it by some different right") Szopen (talk) 07:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

So some Polish kings had typical German POV and typical German POV agreed with some Polish kings? Sigismund II Augustus (1520 — 1572) was Dei gratia rex Poloniae, magnus dux Lithuaniae, nec non terrarum Cracoviae, Sandomiriae, Siradiae, Lanciciae, Cuiaviae, Kijoviae, Russiae, Woliniae, Prussiae, Masoviae, Podlachiae, Culmensis, Elbingensis, Pomeraniae, Samogitiae, Livoniae etc. dominus et haeres. In regard to Copernicus, by the deal with Prussian Confederation cities and gentry, Casimir and later kings were also styled "Culmensis dominus et haeres", Lord and heir of Culmerland, including NCs place of birth, Thorn. Same applies for Elbing, and the parts of Pomerania and Prussia. Why are these places mentioned separately, alongside with Polonia, and not simply covered by Polonia, or at least by neighboring areas like Masovia? For example, the Duchy of Masovia "was not incorporated into the Polish kingdom until the death of the last regional duke, Janusz III Mazowiecki, in 1526" when Copernicus was already over 50 years old. Later kings were called Dei gratia rex Poloniae, magnus dvx Lituaniae, Russiae, Prussiae, .... Were Lithuania, and the claimed parts of Russia and Prussia parts of Poland, or did they have the same ruler for some time? -- Matthead  Discuß   19:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You seems no to understand that titles are just titles. Especially the example you provided is quite silly: Sigismund Augustus titles mentions "Cracoviae", "Sandomiriae", "Cuiaviae" e.g. simply provinces. Titles of others according to you would prove that Poland was in personal union with Russia ("magnus dux Russiae"). As I wrote, those are just titles. Treaty clearly stated that Prussia is incorporated into Poland. This was also the opinion of contemporaries, e.g. Dlugosz clearly writes that he is happy that "Pomorze returned to Poland". Prussia was part of Poland, not in personal union with Poland.
To prove me wrong quote one document in which any POlish kng would issue laws etc as duke of Prussia, not as king of Poland. In Lithuania he was issuing laws as great duke of Lithuania. In Poland as king of Poland. And in Prussia... ? Szopen (talk) 06:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
You forget that the Prussians viewed themselves not as Poles, just like people from Wales don't see themselves as English. From the Polish viewpoint it was a province, from the local Prussian's viewpoint it was a personal union. The special status of Royal Prussia (not only a province) was expressed in the Union of Lublin: Incidentally, at that time the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was really a union of three nations [four, if one counted the Ruthenians]. It is often forgotten that during the Seym debates in 1569 a Union with Royal Prussia was also signed. [22] Der Eberswalder (talk) 21:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not forget that (that elites of Prussia saw themselves as "Prussian" - it's hard to say how widespread this view was, and whether it really contrasted with being German or Polish (later people used phrase gente something, natione something)). Nevertheless, it was not personal union in legal sense. Polish king ruled Prussia as Polish king, because of his rights as Polish king, not because he was Prussian duke. Whoever was elected Polish king ruled Prussia. As for "personal union" view my impression is that it started to be popular in XVIII century with Prussian historian called L-something (Lengnich? Leignich? can't remember) who was trying to prove that Prussia before UoL was separate country tied with Poland only by person of king.
In other words, Lithuanians owed loyalty to Great Duke of Lithuania. Prussians owed loyalty to king of Poland. Szopen (talk) 15:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
And how many Polish speaking persons owed loyalty to the Tsar of Russia, the Emperor of Austria, the King of Prussia, all through the 19th century and even in the first part of the 20th century? As pointed out many times, picking a random figure from the list of Poles very likely will raise eyebrows: Kazimierz Fajans was born in Russian Empire and spent most of the first three decades of his academic life at German universities, co-discovering the element Protactinium, before the Nazis drove him out to the US. It is save to say he never had citizenship of Poland, never studied at the Jagiellonian Univ in Cracow, never was local to a Polish leader, never defended a Polish city - which are the criteria cited for Copernicus' claimed Polishness. The amount of Polish POV on Wikipedia is unbelievable. Just look at Gabriel Fahrenheit, another victim of relentless POV pushers. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't get your point. I wasn't here arguing whether Copernicus was Polish or German, since I support Eberswalder in that he was Prussian. I was arguing here that Royal Prussia was not in personal union with Poland, but it was autonomous province of the kingdom. As a side note, Gabriel Fahrenheit is good example. According to: [23] he signed himself at least on one occasion as "Fahrenheit Polonus" (I will contact the author to find out from where he has this information).Szopen (talk) 07:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

WHY, why do all of you insist on arguing at (not with) each other about this issue? Neither side will persuade the other, and the rest of us don't want to be bothered by this nationalist rancor. The participants are not ignorant of the other side's arguments and evidnece. They reach the opposite conclusion (from whichever side you are agruing) by assigning different weights to the relative importance of established facts, and by choosing to reach a differnt conclusion about facts that cannot be established with certainty (because of conflicting evidence or lack of reliable evidence). The argument between uou is hopeless and a waste of your time, and for the reast of us is an unwelcome distraction and a waste of Wikipedia's resources (among other things). JUST STOP, or at least take it elsewhere. How about a Yahoo! Group devoted to arguing about the history of Northern Europe, and who conquered whom, from the beginning of time through WWII? Finell (Talk) 18:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The "who conquered whom" is not a thing of the past, it's going on, right here on Wikipedia, with articles and talk pages getting conquered and occupied to promote the national pride of some. It has started years ago before you registered your account, Finell, and you will not stop it by yelling. -- Matthead  Discuß   19:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Finell is right. This is a waste of time. Nihil novi (talk) 09:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] STOP these people

Why can't the administrators put a BLOCK on this article and stop the endless nonsensical attacks, mostly by unregistered users.

BTW, I see that the article "Marco Polo"has the same problem - Croatians, it seems, insisting that Marco polo was Croatian, not a Venetian!!

This kind of behavior is making Wikipedia look ridiculous, instead off the important educational site it is supposed to be.

Syrenab (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Relax and enjoy. It hardly will change anyway, having been like that for quite while. -- Matthead  Discuß   01:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Additional background information

I found an interesting source which also sheds some light into the surrounding situation of Copernicus and could help to solve the dispute:
East Central Europe in the Middle Ages 1000-1500, Jean W. Sedlar, University of Washington Press, 1994, quote from pages 281-282 [24]

Royal Prussia enjoyed considerable autonomy after it renounced the government of the Teutonic Knights in 1454 and became a province of Poland. Its leading men insisted, and the king conceded, that only natives of Prussia could hold office there (i.e., no more foreign knights). The Prussians themselves viewed their territory as united to Poland only through the king's person. They did not wish to participate in Polish campaigns or pay the same taxes as other Polish subjects. Only unwillingly did they join in meetings of the Polish royal Council, since participation would require them to execute its decisions. Social and ethnic differences reinforced this separateness. The towns of Royal Prussia possessed far greater economic strength than their counterparts in Poland and played a correspondingly greater political role. Representatives of the towns sat in the Diet of Royal Prussia and in the ruling Prussian Council. The same coinage circulated in both parts of Prussia, differing in weight and standard from that of Poland.

The Prussians chose the Polish king because he was less of an annoyance than the Teutonic Knights. But they still considered themselves as Prussians, not as Poles (and not as Germans).

Using the same standard:
- Marie Curie's nationality was not Russian, even though she was a subject of the Russian tsar and her native country (Poland) has been made a province of Russia
- Copernicus's nationality was not Polish, even though he was a subject of the Polish king and his native country (Prussia) has been made a province of Poland

See? To call Nicolaus Copernicus a Polish astronomer would be the same as calling Marie Curie a Russian chemist.
Both is kind of right, and both is inaccurate.

We could use the same formulation for both the Curie and Copernicus articles. First the quote from the Curie article:
Marie Curie was a physicist and chemist of Polish upbringing and, subsequently, French citizenship. She was a pioneer in the field of radioactivity, the first and only person honored with Nobel Prizes in two different sciences, and the first female professor at the University of Paris. ... While an actively loyal French citizen, she never lost her sense of Polish identity.

Used in this article it would be:
Nicolaus Copernicus was the first astronomer to formulate a scientifically based heliocentric cosmology that displaced the Earth from the center of the universe. ... While an actively loyal Polish citizen, he never lost his sense of Prussian identity.

Sounds good enough? Der Eberswalder (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. Maria Skłodowska was not a happy, faithful subject of the Russian tsar. She did not choose a Russian university. She did not defend Russian castles and towns. She did not spend most of her life in Russia. Copernicus did not attend floating, illegal Prussian university, hiding from reprisals from Polish authorities. And so on. The analogy is poor. The facts are these:
  • Major encyclopedias all over the world consider him Polish.
  • "Prussian" in the minds of many (and not only laymen) means German.
Space Cadet (talk) 00:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
No double standards, please. Either choose to classify a person by citizenship based on place of birth, or by ethnicity as e.g. manifested by the language of writings. Either a Royal Prussian Polish Copernicus and a Congress Polish Russian Curie, or a Middle Low German Latin Copernicus and a Polish French Curie. Besides, Copernicus has chosen three Italian universities which are more significant than his freshman Cracow episode, he defended the local Prussian city of Allenstein, and published in Germany with the help of (fellow) Germans, while Madame Curie did not bother to move to Poland in the 1920s to become a happy, faithful subject of Pilsudski and Sanjacia. Regarding major printed encyclopedias: some still have remnants of the days of old when anti-German propaganda was en vogue, but that will erode sooner or later as scholars do not bother to assign a modern nationality to Copernicus: neither German, nor Polish. See once again what the otherwise beloved God's Playground of Norman Davies says: Nicholas Copernicus (1473—1543). Born in Thorn, in Royal Prussia, he spent the greater part of his career .. in Frauenberg. Mr. Davies seems not to be used well to German names and should add Frauenburg to his spell checker, but he knows that the German names are appropriate for the lifetime of Copernicus (and centuries before and after), not 20th century Torun or Frombork. The city names have to be fixed in this article, BTW. Polish POV has been disseminated too far in the past, and will be reduced. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not set such standards, whether single, double, or otherwise. Wikipedia does not set a standard for determining a person's nationality or ethnicity, nor for the value of the person's work, nor for any of the other facts or opinions that are appropriate to an encyclopedic treatment of the subject. To adopt our own standards (to use your term) for such matters would be to engage in original research, which Wikipedia's core policies forbid us to do. Instead, what Wikipedia does, or is supposed to do, is to present fairly the conclusions of the most reliable sources that are available to us now, on a subject's nationality, and on all encyclopedic content about the subject. Where there is substantial disagreement among reliable sources, on a subject's nationality or on anything else, Wikipedia presents the differing views of the reliable sources in fair proportion to the number and reliability of the sources that hold the the differing views. That has not happened in this Wikipedia article, and in some others, because of the relentless pushing of a nationalistic POV by a tiny but persistent minority. That, in turn, diminishes the reliability of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, and subjects Wikipedia to well-deserved criticism. Finell (Talk) 16:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Look at the reality of Wikipedia, Finell. Nationalities are stated on Wikipedia, and often very different standards are applied to determine this nationality. As pointed out many times, please look at the list of Poles and check how many prominent figures are claimed as Poles in highly doubtful fashion. I've pointed out many examples already. The List_of_Poles#Astronomy not only includes "Jan Heweliusz" (Johannes Hevelius) and "Mikołaj Kopernik" (Nicolaus Copernicus), but also figures like Stanisław Lubieniecki who while in exile in Germany tried to make money by illustrating accounts of comet sightings, which is as much astronomy as filming Star Wars. Alexius Sylvius Polonus was "a little-known maker of astronomical instruments" even from Polish POV. And so on, vanity and wishful thinking galore. One Polish user even boldy added himself [25]. In contrast, look how many figures in the Category:People from Gdańsk are claimed by edit warriors as Polish even when they lived in Danzig(!) and were clearly part of German culture. Look at Johannes Daniel Falk, a stub with two lines, but endless editwarring to squeeze in the vital information "(Gdańsk) in the Polish province of Royal Prussia". Never mind the guy spent his life in Germany (within modern day borders), a fact of low importance according to de facto Wikipedia standards. Wikipedia's lopsidedness is appalling "because of the relentless pushing of a nationalistic POV by a tiny but persistent minority", as you correctly state. But you do not state to which side the persistent minority is pushing, nor who the pushers are. -- Matthead  Discuß   19:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
"In contrast, look how many figures in the Category:People from Gdańsk are claimed by edit warriors as Polish " Since Gdańsk was Polish city why wouldn't they be Poles ? As to 'German culture'-Germany was created in XIX century, before that they were local cultures, sadly destroyed by the Prussian state like many other cultures that fell victim to it--Molobo (talk) 02:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Karin Friedrich herself in a personal e-mail strongly urged me to call Copernicus a PRUSSIAN astronomer. She also said it's a clear case. I don't know - what do you guys think? I know Szopen would be happy. Space Cadet (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Better to leave Copernicus stateless, as he is now, than make him a Prussian, which would confuse 99.99% of the English-language Wikipedia's readers. Nihil novi (talk) 03:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
We've been through all this before. Regardless of what the term meant a half-millennium ago, today Prussian means German, and that is how the statement would be understood by the readers English Wikipedia today. By the way, to which Karin Friedrich does Space Cadet refer? The link is to a disambiguation page. And how is her unpublished opinion relevant to content on Wikipedia? And did she really "strongly urge" Space Cadet impose her will on Wikipedia's article, overriding the consensus of Wikipedians? Has she strongly urged Encyclopaedia Britannica or Encyclopedia Americana to do the same? If she has, they didn't buy it. Finell (Talk) 07:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Probably not. And I was equally surprised at what Dr Friedrich wrote me. I agree that most English speakers identify Prussian with German. Let's leave him stateless then. I just thought it would be interesting to find out what she thinks about the issue, that's all. Space Cadet (talk) 14:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed

In the Nationality and ethnicity section, many Citations needed tags have remained unfulfilled for several months. Unless sufficiently reliable sources are cited that adequately support the statements to which these tags are attached within one additional week, I intend to remove the statements. Today, I hung several new Citations needed tags. Unless adequate supporting source citations are supplied within three weeks, I intend to remove the statements to which these new tags are attached. Although it is permissible to remove unsourced material without warning, especially where the statements are contentious or subject to dispute, I am giving this warning out of deference to the many Wikipedians of opposing views who have contributed to this section of the article. Finell (Talk) 17:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Astrology again

Some time ago I asked for the claim that Copernicus had studied astrology to be supported by citation to a reliable source. On reading the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on Copernicus, I find it says "there is no doubt that Copernicus studied astrology while at the University of Padua", so this would appear to fill the bill. However, the entry also agrees with the other scholarly sources I cited that, as far as we can tell from the available documentary evidence, Copernicus apparently never practised astrology or expressed any interest in it. I will accordingly add a couple of sentences to that effect. —David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)