Talk:Nick Cave/archive1

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== Herion use? ==

Can anyone cite the references to these sentences?

"He also began using heroin around this time." "Cave took a break in 1998-1999 to rehabilitate from his 20 years of heroin and alcohol abuse."

Seems like quite a bold statement to make without references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.12.13 (talk) 22:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Why? 2 Separate Pages 3 Polymath? 3.1 Kylie? 4 Cave's children 5 Biography 6 Religious Affiliation 7 day boy 8 First Band 9 Grammar/Spelling/Punctuation of Personal section 10 Dr. Nick Cave

Why?

Why the removal of the sentence in this edit? [1] (Unless it's been moved to a different article?) Chuq 06:59, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Commercially successful? Early Nick Cave albums? Really? Thats not my impression. Critically successful, sure, but commercially? GWO 08:24, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I just checked my link, and it was a (cur) link.. Additional edits had been made since my post, which changed the nature of my link. What I was actually referring to was this edit [2], but the additional edits seem to have restored the actual information, which (I thought) was deleted -- Chuq 11:59, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There is nothing about genre on this whole page (except the category "goth"). Could someone who knows his music say something more specific than that he has a "band"? Norvell 21:36, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Separate Pages

I'm not sure if it's right, but it seems to make a little more sense to split the article into the Nick Cave person and the Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds band, which is (while nominally his 'solo' career) still a different thing entirely from himself. I can't recall a precedent on Wikipedia, but I'm sure there is one. Does anyone agree on the split? Tolo 23:15, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking this myself. The Birthday Party (Cave's previous band) have their own page. I suppose the Bad Seeds as a band is arguably a product of Cave's, and I suppose you wouldnt seperate Bob Dylan's or Tom Wait's biography from their musical careers. If the pages are kept together, it needs to be cleaned up with better organisation. Robinoke 19:07, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I've found a precedent! Which may or may not mean anything. Huey Lewis has a seperate page to Huey Lewis & the News, which is basically the same situation (I attest). So yes. Perhaps worthwhile to split; I agree, this page is quite poorly organised. I'll give a bit of thought to organisation and so on in case a split isn't argued with. Tolo 15:01, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

OK. You make a good point. I'm not going to contest the split. If I can find some time in the near future, I'll help with it, but its exam season at the moment. We need to be sure to fix any redirects like The Bad Seeds and Bad Seed aswell. Robinoke 09:17, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't be too bothered about precedents, this isn't a court or anything, just make the best descision for the readers of the article. In this case I am in favour of splitting the page.--Commander Keane 13:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

In response to the original question: I'm sorry I didn't see this page before, but I went and made a page for Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds a little bit ago, and I'm currently in the process of tracking down redirects and fixing them, and changing links all around the place (which is how I got here...). But anyway, there already was a page called "bad seeds" which referred to the band, but it had very little on it and parts of it were factually wrong. Strange thing is that all the redirects from pages called something-or-other related to the band didn't direct there, but instead just went to "Nick Cave"... ah well --Qirex 16:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Good job; I was afraid to start it in case I did anything exceedingly stupid. Which leads me to question: is it worth keeping the discography and the line-up on his main page? I don't think it is, personally. Also, is the line-up better here or on the main Bad Seeds page? This one seems, at least, a little more aesthetically pleasing. Tolo 07:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

First, I apologise for not coming back and answering your questions earlier, Tolo. I was relatively inexperienced with some aspects of Wikipedia at the time, like the watch list (I was manually bookmarking in my browser), and didn't realise there were new comments here. Anyway, it seems someone has already merged across the line-up info, which is good, but the discography remains. I think it should probably be removed, too, and replaced with a line directing viewers to see the nick cave and the bad seeds page. Thoughts? --Qirex 04:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I came here intending to suggest doing exactly that, so seeing as others seem to be thinking along the same lines I went ahead and moved all the Bad Seeds' releases over to that page. Eldang 22:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Polymath?

Hey Painbearer, I note that you've added the category Polymath. I am a big fan of Nick, but would not regard him as a polymath. He is primarily a singer and songwriter. He has written one novel and one screenplay. His collections of poetry predominantly contain song lyrics. He does not excel as an actor, and does not regard himself as an actor. One may as well give undue prominence to the small public examples of his visual art, his celebrity or his cult status, as to his acting. I think the Polymath tag is (at this time) unjustified. Even if he writes more novels and screenplays, I still wouldn't regard him as a Polymath. Cheers. Design 01:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I noticed it too. Polymath? Sure, he's an actor, a singer, and a writer, so I guess he fits the criteria for a polymath or Renaissance Man. Usually when people think polymath they think about people who explore all fields of academics and occupations, people who do many things, like Leonardo daVinci and Nick Cave. I can list a bunch of people of the 20th & 21st century who are also actor-singer-writers and who consider themselves polymaths. Currently it seems like the Polymath category needs to be populated with more people from modern times (which would be a good project, and I'm willing to help out on). User:Arual

I'm going have to agree with the above comments, even though I love Nick Cave and believe he is a multitalented and intelligent man. But just... not multitalented quite like that, I suppose. Folkor 01:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Polymath? Wouldn't that more often be used by someone who excels in more than just the arts? So da Vinci is a polymath because he was both a great artist and an inventor. Cave is a great artist, but I'm not aware of any engineering or scientific feats. So genius, maybe, polymath no. Average Earthman 13:51, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• To labour the point: Wikipedia gives the following definition: "A polymath...is a person who excels in multiple fields, particularly in both arts and sciences." Nick's 'mutliple' fields are all within the arts. First question: Does the writing of songs, poems, one and novel and one screenplay qualify as 'multiple' fields? In this context I would say "no".

Second question: Does he excel? I would say he excels as a singer/performer, and as a songwriter; that he does not excel as a poet or actor. I have no view on his novel and his screenplay. For these reasons I don't think he qualifies as a polymath. Design 11:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, there hasn't been much said in favour of its inclusion, so I'm deleting the category. If someone wants to add it in future, please cite a source for it.--Marysunshine 03:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Kylie?

Sorry to pick on you Painbearer, but can you point out a source for the supposed "romance" with Kylie. As far as I have read Nick was in a relationship with PJ Harvey at the time he was flirting on camera with Kylie. Friends yes, lovers?...can you cite sources? Design 02:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think there were some speculations as Kylie is known for her romances, but I can't tell any resources. In fact it's your choice if you want to remove it. I think that I won't be able to find any head-lines as of now, 10 years after their famous duet. Painbearer 10:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, did a quick Google on Kylie sites & gossip sites such as[3], and none list Nick as one of Kylie's "relationships". I'll delete the reference. Design 11:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Cave's children

On 3 March 2006 an anonymous contributor added a reference to another two children, (making six in total: Luke, Jethro, Arthur, Earl, +2). Is this hearsay? Original research? It should be removed unless a source reference can be provided. Design 12:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure, but I think that saying that Nick regards himself as more of a father to Luke than Jethro is a pretty big comment to put down without citation. 203.191.191.28 (talk) 15:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Biography

I reorganized the bio material after starting to add a paragraph about Susie Bick and discovering that she was already mentioned. Also clarified a few statements based on articles cited. --Marysunshine 20:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Religious Affiliation

Does anyone have any hard evidence pointing to Cave's exact religious afilliation? The article says that he was raised Anglican, but elements of Christian Mysticism, as well as the song "Brompton Oratory" suggest he might have converted at some point to Roman Catholicism. Brompton Oratory is a large RC church in London, and the song explicity details the protagonist taking Eucharist at the church, which would be unlikely - and certainly frowned upon - if he hadn't joined the RC church. Likewise, I think it's unlikely Cave would not understand the fundamental differences between Anglican communion and the Roman Sacrament: he's a reasonably accomplished theologian.Cravenmonket 19:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe he is a non-denominational Christian? Here's a quote from a Mojo magazine interview published January 2005.

Mojo: Do you believe in God now?

Cave: I do, yeah. Although I've never been an atheist, there are periods when I struggled with the whole thing. As someone who uses words, you need to able to justify your belief with language, I'd have arguments and the atheist always won because he'd go back to logic. Belief in God is illogical, it's absurd. There's no debate, I feel it intuitively, it comes from the heart, a magical place. But I still I fluctuate from day to day. Sometimes I feel very close to the notion of God, other times I don't. I used to see that as a failure. Now I see it as a strength, especially compared to the more fanatical notions of what God is. I think doubt is an essential part of belief.

--Design 23:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

That's certainly an interesting quote, and I'm very pleased that you posted it, but it doesn't bring us much closer to identifying with religious affiliation. As a protestant, Cave needn't associate at all with any particular denomination, and one couldn't blame him for that at all. As a Catholic, however, he would still be entitled to doubts and personal struggles, and these would in no way reduce his affiliation with the Catholic church. I think, often, the term "non-denominational" really denotes a Christian who has been fully dissatisfied with every protestant church group, but has not encountered or explored Catholicism. I'm trying to remember which gospel it was that Cave wrote the foreword to in a recent scholarly evaluation (not that it would necessarily present any answer). It seems to me that Cave's general malaise and struggles with Christianity stem from established assertions of the nature of God and Christ, most often put forth and made visible by low-church protestant Christian groups, or pounded into the dirt with scandals. His experiences of God are certainly pan-denominational, but his specific inclusion of Brompton Oratory in a major album really make it hard to ignore or discount a Roman Catholic bent.Cravenmonket 02:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Just been checking the net, I found this quote from an interview "The Flesh Made Word includes the extraordinary and revealing insight that Cave's progressive aesthetic mellowing is due to a change in his focus from the Old to the New Testament. Cave told me that he does not go to church, and that he is not affiliated with any particular branch of Christianity, but there is no question that his God is a Christian God. When I asked Cave if he had any interest in other religions, or in a broader, non-religious spirituality, he replied, "Oh, a passing, skeptical kind of interest. I'm a hammer-and-nails kind of guy." The interviews here http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2004/11/18/cave/index.html?pn=3 So I maybe he's non-denominational?. Either way he's a Christian, this was on the Canongate website, Caves intro to The Gospel of Mark "The Christ that emerges from Mark, tramping through the haphazard events of His life, had a ringing intensity about Him that I could not resist. Christ spoke to me through His isolation, throughout the burden of His death, through His rage at the mundane, through His sorrow." Nick Cave Source http://www.canongate.net/Mark/Paperback Maybe Cave should be entered into a Christian Category? -- Tom 5 Jun 2007

I'm not sure the use of the word "devout" is appropriate in this article. I think it's clear, if only from the sources cited here, that Cave is a fairly unorthodox Christian. Of course you can be devout and unorthodox, but in context the sentence gives a slightly misleading impression. Jamrifis (talk) 13:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jamfris above - and would go further; Cave could not, on the basis of the quoted article be called a 'devout Christian'; the assertions in the article are mere speculation by the author, unsupported by any evidence or quotes from Cave himself. Mr. Cave's dry sense of humour and his reluctance to talk frankly in interviews does not appear to be taken into account when looking at his quotes regarding his religious views. I suggest that his religion be left as having 'some Christian beliefs'. It is clear enough that he wishes to keep the matter private, or at least mysterious. Even a brief Google search for 'nick cave christian' or 'nick cave religion' and so on turns up nothing that would be considered reliable evidence, and I think both Christians and Nick Cave himself would be uncomfortable with the 'devout' tag. Euchrid9 (talk) 22:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

This point is a bit over the top, does it really matter if he's a protestant/catholic or non-denominational, devout or not? His religious beliefs, for lack of any clear sources, should just be described as Christian, maybe with reference to his doubts from the quote above. I also think the reference (salon.com) should be removed, as it is subscriber-only (possibly when posted it was available freely, but now it seems not). Stanlavisbad (talk) 11:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The salon.com article cited above was freely available to me just now.--Design (talk) 13:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

day boy

In the Biography section, under the Youth And Education heading, there's this sentence: "The following year he became a "day boy" when his family moved to Caulfield, a suburb of Melbourne." Could someone tell me the definition of "day boy"? Hinkhouse 05:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

A "Boarder" is a resident student, one who lives (boards) at the school. A "Day boy" commutes daily from his family's residence. --Design 11:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

First Band

I was just wondering if Nick Cave's first band had a name before "The Boys Next Door"? Buuuuudaywheezethajuice 5:03, 15th Oct 2007

Grammar/Spelling/Punctuation of Personal section

I haven't checked the other sections, but grammar, sentence structure and spelling of the "Personal life" section of this page is really terrible... is there someone who's got a spare few hours to fix it?

It could also do with a few in-line citations. "...not really a couple..."? An R.V.? •Florrie•leave a note• 00:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the recent anonymous additions to the article are unsourced drivel.--Design (talk) 13:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Nick Cave

Yes, he did get an honorary doctorate, however it was not a phD (Doctor of Philosophy), it was an LL.D (Doctor of Laws). As you can see in this article from Monash University, the university where he was given the honorary degree. --сояdRдzіиз-effect (talk) 09:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe that honorary degrees are properly used in day to day live, nor appended to a person's name. Much as I admire Mr. Cave, he is not properly styled N.C. LLD. Roregan (talk) 04:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This page is an archive. Please do not edit the contents of this page. Direct any additional comments to the current talk page.