Talk:Nguyễn Dynasty

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Contents 1 Pronunciation of Nguyễn 2 Factual dispute 3 There is no evidence 4 third party 5 Makes no sense 6 Crown Prince Bao Long 7 European Knights 8 Nguyen Dynasty Family supports Prince Buu Chanh as Regent 9 Emperor Bao Dai INTENT 10 Repeating won't make it true 11 Prince Buu Chanh 12 Nothing but claims 13 Reorganized; edits needed 14 Names of the Emperors 15 Heir to the throne 16 And you thought edit wars were bad? 17 The Real Prince 18 Tôn Thất / Tôn Nữ 19 Western Imperialism 20 Removal of Han Tu

[edit] Pronunciation of Nguyễn

Would anyone with more knowledge of Vietnamese than me (i.e. next to none) like to give a phonetic representation of the name? Either in SAMPA or IPA would be good. This would be particularly useful seeing as Nguyễn is such a common Vietnamese surname. Oska 06:22, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

I don't know any SAMPA or IPA. But according to my Vietnamese friends, it reads like Gwen.

Had a Vietnamese friend who pronounced his own last name "Noowinn", although the "oo" was a bit whispered. "Nwin" I suppose. Then again, he had a Southern accent and loved NASCAR, and didn't know any actual Vietnamese...

SAMPA hasn't been developed for Vietnamese. I just looked at the IPA chart and got confused. It's not Noowin. That's the way an English speaker would pronounce it the first time they see it. It's "Ngwen". You have to clump the N and the G together as one sound. Say the entire thing as if you were asking a question. As in... "Ngwen?" Hope that helps. Khoa

My Vietnamese music instructor has this name. It has two syllables: NGOO and YEN. Since English doesn't have an initial "NG" sound but we do have a final "NG," found in words like "RING." Practice the initial "NG" consonant by saying the word "RING" and adding "-OO," making "RINGOO." Then remove the "RING-" and say "NGOO-YEN." This is the Vietnamese pronunciation, and, as you can see, it isn't hard at all. "Winn," "Noowinn," and "Nwin" are all incorrect as they miss the initial "NG" consonant.

Badagnani 11:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the usage of -YEN, as Nguyen does not use the -YE sound at all. Correctly pronounced, Nguyen is similar to Ng-weh-in, with a nasal raising of the voice at the end as if asking a question. The North and South Vietnamese pronounce it slightly diffrently, but this is a rather close approximation.

donmai

Donmai has the closest proper pronunciation. I am native to Vietnam, my mother's maiden name is Nguyen and I was recently in Vietnam and speak it somewhat well. The Ng is similar to the W sound and the voice lowers at the 'eh' section and rises at the 'in' section. Wh-èh-ín notice the slopes over the e and i which show the tone that you should use.

[edit] Factual dispute

Jimmyvanthach, and an anonymous user with IP address range 216.183.37.*, have been engaging in an edit war, as follows:

• 216.183.37.* asserts that the "coat of arms" image is inauthentic and that the sentence "Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh (born 1942) was appointed in 2004 by the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty Overseas Council, created by Bao Dai in 1993, to the position of "Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty" has no factual basis, and has removed both of these three times.
• Jimmyvanthach has reverted those deletions three times, asserting (in edit summaries) that the edits were "non-neutral" and providing a website reference for these claims [1].

Any further back-and-forth along these lines is pointless, though it hasn't been frequent enough to violate the three-revert rule. I'm marking this as a factually disputed article and adding it to WP:RFC. Someone needs to do some fact-checking here.

My own opinion: Jimmyvanthach, the website you linked to is not a neutral source! (For those who don't know: Jimmyvanthach, and Tran Van Ba who operates that website, claim to work for Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh.) If you can't find any actual news article or non-Internet information source that backs up the "coat of arms" or the "Regent" title, then those items really should be deleted. Otherwise Wikipedia is just uncritically echoing the claims of a small group of individuals. ←Hob 22:29, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)

Someone on this site should studies more Vietnamese : Gia Long DOES NOT means House Dragon. Long = Dragon; but Gia IS NOT House. Gia in Gia Long, mean skin. Thus, Gia Long = Skin of Dragon.

• Actually House Dragon is probably closer. But Gia Long actually means "Sai Noi", as in "Saigon" + "Hanoi". The original name of Hanoi was Thang Long, and the original name of Saigon was Gia Dinh. Nguyen Anh took this name because Vietnam had just been reunified (by a popular peasant uprising which Nguyen Anh crushed), after previously being divided into a south ruled by Nguyen Anh's ancestors, and a north ruled by the Trinh lords. Carl Kenner 16:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] There is no evidence

As the poster states himself, the "almanach" site lists Buu Chanh as the source of their information (they are just repeating what he told them, in other words, taking his word for it). The "monarchy.net" site clearly states that they do not endorse or vouch for any of the groups listed in their index and the "PRweb" site is simply a place where anyone can have any information posted they wish; they likewise include a disclaimer saying that they do not check facts or vouch for any of the information posted on their website. The letter from Sihanouk comes from the same group's own website, so that is hardly an un-biased source, and in any event, having someone repeat false information does not make it true.

As I have already mentioned: regarding the "coat of arms", this is obviously something which Buu Chanh fabricated as the Nguyen Dynasty, like all other East Asian dynasties, had no such thing. Coat of arms are a purely European thing, they were designed in the Middle Ages so that knights could be identified in combat. The only coats of arms for Vietnam came after the monarchy was abolished when western-style government were established in the north and south.

(Above comments are by user at IP address 216.183.37.*.) It's not mandatory that you register an account name to edit on Wikipedia, but it does make discussions like this a lot easier to follow if you can sign them... ←Hob

[edit] third party

third party refrence of title and position: The Academy of European Medieval artial Arts or AEMMA

http://www.aemma.org/images/honoraryFellows/buuchanh.htm Since Prince Buu Chanh is the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty they asked him to be a Honorary member Jimmyvanthach 00:30, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Makes no sense

How can a group of European knight-wannabe's possibly be a credible source for the legitimacy of a Vietnamese pretender? Probably they just believed the grandiose claims and put him on there to lend "prestige" to thier own website, which itself must be severly lacking in credibility if the best patron they can find for Medieval martial arts is a Vietnamese throne pretender.

[edit] Crown Prince Bao Long

Bao Long is the Crown Prince ceremonial Position that is powerless, Emperor Bao Dai signed over the duties of the Nguyen Dynasty to Prince Buu Phuc. Jimmyvanthach 18:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] European Knights

That organization has done various research in areas of royalty regardless of the country. Jimmyvanthach 18:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nguyen Dynasty Family supports Prince Buu Chanh as Regent

1. "Prince-Regent" Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh,

Link 1: http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2004/07/07/139622/SecondFormalLetterofKingSihanouk.JPG

2. If you goto The International Monarchist League on Monarchy.net a Third Party organization please scroll down to VIETNAM and you will see that Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is listed as well as Prince Buu Phuc who assigned Prince Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty.

Link 2: http://www.monarchy.net/directory.htm#

3. I have researched this issue of the biography with *Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papers

4. Tran Van Ba the former Colonel in Chief of Emeperor Bao Dai and also the late Emperor's mother Dowager Empress Doan Huy Hoang Thi Hau Tu Cung.

His email is Tran_Van_Ba@hotmail.com

Here is his site as Chancellor of Order of Dragon of Annam.

Tran Van Ba

I have wrote him email and he is confirmed the information since he was Emperor Bao Dai Colonel-in-Chief and was present at Imperial Audience Emperor Bao Dai held and establish Vietnamese Imperial Family Council and assign him advisor.

5. Crown Prince Bao Long is the Crown Prince ceremonial Position that is powerless, Emperor Bao Dai signed over the duties of the Nguyen Dynasty to Prince Buu Phuc.

6. third party refrence of title and position: The Academy of European Medieval artial Arts or AEMMA

Since Prince Buu Chanh is the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty they asked him to be a Honorary member

The Vietnamese Imperial Family, from my research supports Prince Buu Chanh. I have found no information that disproves the information that that I gathered from Prince Buu Chanh from any other Vietnamese Prince.

7. The Crown Prince Bao Long has not spoken out against Prince Buu Chanh role as the Regent, since he does not want to be in a political position and he has no authority, since it was taken away from him by Emperor Bao Dai Crown Prince Bao Long Official Statement

yes there is a dispute but, it is unfounded, because the Crown Prince or any other Vietnamese Royal Family has not spoken out against Prince Buu Chanh, Emperor Bao Dai conferred powers to Prince Buu Phuc Chairman of the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council.Jimmyvanthach 03:19, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

re: point 3 above, My Van Tran is a very biased source. I have met her and read her works, and I can assure you that neutrality and historical accuracy are not her guiding principles. She is a hardcore political activist for the anticommunist forces, and she dreams of a Vietnam where the Nguyen Dynasty rule rather than the communists. Carl Kenner 16:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emperor Bao Dai INTENT

Emperor Bao Dai the last reigning monarch of Vietnam abidicated the throne of Vientam and lived in exile in France. He continued to be the Head of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty, which is the Royal House of Vietnam. At the time of his reign his oldest son, Crown Prince Bao Long was his apparent heir, but Emperor Bao Dai had transferred the duties of the Nguyen Dynasty to the Prince Buu Phuc, the elder Prince within the Nguyen Dynasty.

In 2004, Prince Buu Phuc assigned the Prince Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty. Emperor Bao Dai has a signed document that he wrote assigning the duties of the Nguyen Dynasty to Prince Buu Phuc and has been look over by scholars. I am currently looking over some research books, that document this, that would put the question to rest that Emperor Bao Dai did not wish his son to be the heir.Jimmyvanthach 22:57, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Repeating won't make it true

Where to begin?...

Link 1: http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2004/07/07/139622/SecondFormalLetterofKingSihanouk.JPG

Fact the website "prweb" allows anyone to post anything. You could write that Michael Jackson was a prince and they would put it on-line. It has a clearly displayed disclaimer stating that they do not vouch for anything on their site.

(Next pathetic effort) 2. If you goto The International Monarchist League on Monarchy.net a Third Party organization please scroll down to VIETNAM and you will see that Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is listed as well as Prince Buu Phuc who assigned Prince Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty. Link 2: http://www.monarchy.net/directory.htm#

Fact This directory does not (for about the thousandth time) vouch for anyone or any group listed there, nor does the organization endorse any particular movement (according to it's own website). Can you read? When will you get it through your thick skull that being listed in a monarchist directory proves nothing

(next effort) 3. I have researched this issue of the biography with *Dr. My-Van Tran (http://www.unisanet.unisa.edu.au/staff/Homepage.asp?Name=My-Van.Tran) an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papers Fact the web link you give has nothing about this issue on it at all, nor would it prove anything if you did without legitimate sources provided, and in any event, this same person is listed as a member of Buu Chanh's worshipers on his website, so I would hardly consider her to be an impartial third party.

(next effort) 4. Tran Van Ba the former Colonel in Chief of Emeperor Bao Dai and also the late Emperor's mother Dowager Empress Doan Huy Hoang Thi Hau Tu Cung. His email is Tran_Van_Ba@hotmail.com Here is his site as Chancellor of Order of Dragon of Annam. Fact There is likewise no evidence to prove who this Tran Van Ba is, at one point you were pretending to be him yourself. If he was the commander in chief of the imperial guards before 1945, how on earth could he still be doing anything? He must be in his 90's by now. Again, you present only grandiose claims, no hard evidence whatsoever. I'm not about to simply "take his word for it" whoever he is.

(next effort) 5. Crown Prince Bao Long is the Crown Prince ceremonial Position that is powerless, Emperor Bao Dai signed over the duties of the Nguyen Dynasty to Prince Buu Phuc. Fact Bao Long has not actually been crown prince of anything since 1945. However, perhaps you will explain how it is possible that he still has even a ceremonial position if his father disinherited him in favor of some distant cousin he'd never met before, as you keep claiming?

Counter-Reply: Prince Buu Chanh and Emperor Bao Dai PhotosJimmyvanthach 01:56, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

(next pathetic effort) 6. third party refrence of title and position: The Academy of European Medieval artial Arts or AEMMA Since Prince Buu Chanh (http://www.aemma.org/images/honoraryFellows/buuchanh.htm) is the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty they asked him to be a Honorary member Fact This website simply repeats info from your website. How exactly is the internet "academy" an expert at Asian royal succession?

(most pitiful of all) The Vietnamese Imperial Family, from my research supports Prince Buu Chanh. I have found no information that disproves the information that that I gathered from Prince Buu Chanh from any other Vietnamese Prince. Fact The "Vietnamese Imperial Family" includes close to 15,000 members. Have you talked to them all? A few days ago you were asking me for the email address of the Vinh San family, so obviously you have not talked to them. What about Ham Nghi's family, what about Bao Dai's children, why not show some letters from them endorsing this 'grand high regent'.

(moving on) 7. The Crown Prince Bao Long has not spoken out against Prince Buu Chanh role as the Regent, since he does not want to be in a political position and he has no authority, since it was taken away from him by Emperor Bao Dai Crown Prince Bao Long Official Statement (http://members.cox.net/trandinh/bio/bl.htm) Fact There is no "Official Statement" on that website, just a short bio of Bao Long. But what happened?! A minute ago you said the Imperial Family supported Buu Chanh, now you say that the heir to the throne simply "has not spoken out against" him - which is it, or perhaps you are getting your lies mixed up?

(finally) yes there is a dispute but, it is unfounded, because the Crown Prince or any other Vietnamese Royal Family has not spoken out against Prince Buu Chanh, Emperor Bao Dai conferred powers to Prince Buu Phuc Chairman of the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council. Fact You do not seem to have spoken to any of the rest of the family at all. One minute they all support him, the next minute you say that have not spoken out at all. They probably do not see any point, as anyone with half a brain would see what a charade this is. I have corresponded with others in the Nguyen dynasty and they have accepted reality and are quite content as they are.

(playing with words) Emperor Bao Dai the last reigning monarch of Vietnam abidicated the throne of Vientam and lived in exile in France. He continued to be the Head of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty, which is the Royal House of Vietnam. At the time of his reign his oldest son, Crown Prince Bao Long was his apparent heir, but Emperor Bao Dai had transferred the duties of the Nguyen Dynasty to the Prince Buu Phuc, the elder Prince within the Nguyen Dynasty. Fact You have presented no proof of this, nor do I see how any man can legally give another man power over his whole family. Bao Dai could not give away what he himself no longer possessed. After 1945 he was just a regular guy, you seem to have a hard time accepting this reality. That is one abdication is!

(promises...) In 2004, Prince Buu Phuc assigned the Prince Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty. Emperor Bao Dai has a signed document that he wrote assigning the duties of the Nguyen Dynasty to Prince Buu Phuc and has been look over by scholars. I am currently looking over some research books, that document this, that would put the question to rest that Emperor Bao Dai did not wish his son to be the heir.Jimmyvanthach 22:57, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC) Fact The time to do research is before making ridiculous claims. There is no evidence for any of this. There is no more monarchy and no more princes, so Buu Phuc could not make Buu Chanh anything as he is nothing himself. When will you realize that being common is not an insult? If this quack really wanted to help his people he could do that without putting on all these airs and trying to pass himself off as being better than everyone else.

NguyenHue

[edit] Prince Buu Chanh

Prince Buu Chanh and Emperor Bao Dai knew each other very closely and Prince Buu Chanh's wife Princess Phan Lien as you can tell by the photographs below. Prince Buu Chanh and Emperor Bao Dai Photos

You are correct that Emperor Bao Dai abidicated the throne, but he was still head of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam.

He ceased being the Monarch of Vietnam, he then assigned the duties of the Imperial Nguyen Dyansty to Prince Buu Phuc and it was in 1982 signed Edict by Emperor Bao Dai.

In the Edict Emperor Bao Dai had established in 1982 that Prince Buu Phuc is the Chairman(principal) of the Vietnamese Imperial Family and that all family members must cooperate with him. (as suggested you stated 15,000 family members? that would include them also)

The Royal Edict has been viewed and it has assigned Prince Buu Phuc in Charge of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty. The document has been viewed by various members of the Vietnamese Royal Family, and I am sure if other members have not seen it they can contact Prince Buu Phuc via his contact information on the International Monarchist League Directory and it can be viewed by them as such because it is a dynastic edict of the Nguyen Dynasty. Jimmyvanthach 02:11, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nothing but claims

All you have done is shown that this Buu Chanh met with Bao Dai once and had pictures taken, assuming that this is even Buu Chanh.

You still have shown no evidence for anything, that Buu Chanh could possibly be a "prince" which is absolutely impossible, or anything that you claim concerning Bao Dai.

After the monarchy ended in 1945 he became a common citizen, and all his family and relatives became common citizens, all of them are totally free people and none of them, not even Bao Dai, just becaue he "used to be" a puppet Emperor for the French, has any right to give anyone power over others. All Nguyen-Phuc descendants are not his slaves just because he used to be Emperor. You have not proven he did this, just keep making excuses and trying to 'pass the buck' to others, nor would such an "edict" be valid if it exists.

How can someone who is not emperor anymore issue an "imperial edict"?

Totally absurd, baseless and shamefully misleading. NguyenHue

---

1. You are correct the Monarchy ceased to exist, When Emperor Bai Dai abidicated. Then everything else becomes instantly irrelevant. (snip)

3. Emperor Bao Dai was a common citizen correct, but he still had respect and reverance that was given to him my Vietnamese Supporters for the traditions and ceremonies that the Emperor continued to participate in France with the Vietnamese community and also in the United States. That is pure speculation and POV

4. Link: Emperor Bao Dai and Princess Monique Vinh Thuy visit Cao Dai Temple Proves nothing more than that he was there, you will notice they call him "Cuu Hoang" meaning FORMER Emperor.

(snip POV)

9. Emperor Bao Dai in 1982 wrote an EDICT, that stated Prince Buu Phuc is the Chairman of the NguyenPhoc and to be in charge that that all familes members must organize and unite under the Vietnamese Family Council. The document has been reviewed and by thirdparty and scholars and upheld to be authentic.

He could not write any kind of edict forcing anyone to do anything, he was just a regular guy at this point and had no right to exercise or give away power over all the rest of his relatives to anyone. Again, you fail to produce this claimed evidence, but again, whatever it is he has invented it would be meaningless anyway

(snip info on Jimmy's alter-ego)

11. As it stands Crown Prince Bao Long has inherited the position of the Nguyen Dynasty and Prince Buu Chanh is working within the powers of Emperor Bao Dai's authority given to the Vietnamese Family Council by Prince Buu Phuc. This is obviously impossible as there was nothing for Bao Long to inherit in 1997.

(snip political POV rant) Crown Prince Bao Long would return to Vietnam and be crowned Emperor. This would also be impossible as Bao Long is a Catholic and would be excommunicated if he attempted to perform any of the rituals necessary of a Confucian Emperor --Jimmyvanthach 19:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) NguyenHue 02:20, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)NguyenHue

[edit] Reorganized; edits needed

I just consolidated the history part of the article and separated it from the list, and did some other minor copyediting. There were two redundant mentions of Bao Long, which I combined. But look at the first two paragraphs of the History section - someone needs to fix that. "The second to fifth emperors were not pro-French and what it stood for" is not only ungrammatical, but lacks any historical context to help the reader understand what it's talking about, especially since the next paragraph seems to say that the French didn't step in till two years after the fifth emperor. I'm speaking as someone who is entirely ignorant of the history, so I'm not going to mess with this... ←Hob 17:55, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

This article needs to be re-written from scratch -- I gained no information, saved for the "era names", after reading it! Mekong Bluesman 06:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Names of the Emperors

1. From which source, or sources, did we get the birth names of these emperors? Except for Nguyễn Phúc Ánh, which is Gia Long's real name, all are wrong! Mekong Bluesman

2. Like the above person, I am real puzzled about the names of the Nguyen Emperors. From which source, or sources, did he get all the real first names of all the Emperors? From the Vietnam Su Luoc i have here, all the Nguyen emperors have names such as Ng Phuc Mien Ton (emperor Thieu Tri), Ng Phuc Hong Nham (emperor Tu Duc), Ng Phuc Vinh Thuy (emperor Bao Dai), Ng Phuc Vinh San (Emp Duy Tan) and or Ng Phuc Buu Dao (Emperor Khai Dinh), Ng Phuc Buu Lan (Emp Thanh Thai) or Ng Phuc Ung Lich (emp Ham Nghi)etc...etc.... Am an avid reader of Historia and History of all countries.... User: Patrick Hung Nguyen

[edit] Heir to the throne

Let's not mention the fact that there is, officially, no throne to be inherited, the following blurb:

The next heir to the Vietnamese throne currently resides in Santa Rosa, California USA. His exact location is not known. It has been determine recently that his given name is Nguyen Quy Don-- originally born in Boulder, Colorado. His parents fled Vietnam hastily after the fall of Saigon in 1975 after pledging their support to the democratic south. Nguyen Van Hue, Quy Don's father, was in the South Vietnamese Navy. Because of the Vietnamese rights of succession, the throne does not go to Van Hue, but to Quy Don.

needs to have some factual back-ups (websites, newspaper articles, books..., and more than one).

Otherwise, it should be removed since it falls under the category of original research. -- Mekong Bluesman 5 July 2005 04:04 (UTC)

[edit] And you thought edit wars were bad?

"he was dethroned and imprisoned three days later, after being accused of deleting one paragraph from Tự Đức's will."

Gee, this at least doesn't happen to people who delete a paragraph (however controversial) from Wikipedia! :) --Canuckguy 01:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

He was not only dethroned and imprisoned. He was actually executed a few days afterward. Now, only if I'm granted such ... er ... an executive power as such! -- Mekong Bluesman 17:24, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Real Prince

In Vietnamese tradition (modeled after the imperial system in China) the title of "Prince" is not hereditary! in that sense, the so called "Prince" Nguyen Phuc Buu Phuc and Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh, they are not Princes!!! leaving aside the rediculous title of "Prince Regent." They are called Hoang Than in Vietnamese or royal members in translation.

As far as legitimacy concern, Crown Prince Bao Long is the sole legitimate heir and ruler and future Monarch and the real Prince of Viet-Nam.

May the Crown Prince reign in Peace.

[edit] Tôn Thất / Tôn Nữ

Mention of the honorific Tôn Thất (and female equivalent Tôn Nữ) for members of the royal family should be mentioned. Badagnani 06:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western Imperialism

The part "Vietnam under Western Imperialism" originally was not in the article "Nguyen Dynasty]]. I'm the one who put it in. Now I see it doesn't need anymore. Someone please help me to remove it, thank! 66.53.218.105

[edit] Removal of Han Tu

The removal of han tu from this article (in sections discussing Vietnam's ancient history, where it is relevant), without discussion or consensus, as in this edit and this edit, is bad. Please restore them immediately. Badagnani 04:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)