Talk:Nezami

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[edit] Ref regarding Shirin

I wanted to look up the source regaring the claim that some authors considered Shirin to be "Caucasian Albanian" but I couldn't find anything on M.Shaginyan, “Studies/sketches about Nizami”, 1955/1981. The editor who added the source has been banned so i'm wondering if anyone else can provide some information or an exact quote, page number etc.? I'm guessing it's a Soviet publication in Russian based on the date and the authors name.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 03:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Adil and I made a consensus on the article a while back, although that is a point I should have taken up more. Although at the time I was not aware that Encyclopedia of Islam, Britannica as well more than one article in Iranica[1] consider Shirin to be an Armenian. Anyhow, I'll try to contact him or another user (GM who was semi-involved) to see if they can provide page number and the pertaining info. Anyhow, just for the record on the talk page, I don't agree with Caucasian Albanian since Alisher Navai and Vahshi Bafqi (two poets imitating Nizami) also think of Shirin as Armenian and they were influenced by them. But this is wikipedia which no one owns and to keep the article calm, I agreed to incorporate the differing opinions. Although I consider Western sources superior as well as classical sources on Shirin (like Navai, Bafqi) better than USSR sources. I might bring the issue up in a few years, once hopefully there is peace. Till then, proper referencing is provided within a few months or sooner. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 14:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I got word that I will have the source sometimes next week. Thanks.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 15:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Ali. I look forward to it.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 17:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I received the sources and I also did some research. It seems the new research might show the historical Shirin was different than the mythical one of poetry [2] and might not be from the Caucus but from Khuzestan. Anyhow for Nizami it was from the Caucus, so perhaps if there is an article on Shirin in the future, this can be mentioned. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 06:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Nizami Gandjavi was an Azerbaijannian. He was born in Gandja (where I am fr.) and lived all his life there, some sources say that his mother was kurdish, but it is not real. both of his parents were Azerbaijanian. He wrote in persian language but thats coz in 11th centure the main language in litruature was persian language like before it was arabic or latin languages.

Azerbaijan is independent country and free natian. We r not persians or russians or any other nation. So Nizami Gandjavi who came fr Azerbaijanian family and lived all his life in Gandja bus me considered like Azerbaijanian write.

I think several countries can be proud of Nizami and someone who wrote about love should not a tool for fighting amongst people and countries. These were the wordings agreed upon and it is compromise version which has been stable for a year and half. Since then I have found Diakonov and many other sources and have done a detailed study on Nizami and I think the current version is the best. But there was no country by the name of Azerbaijan then. That is "Azerbaijanian" was not used as a ethnic term during the time of Nizami Ganjavi (it may be used as regional designation today) and so I assume you mean he was a Oghuz Turk writer (which he was not). I politely disagree and believe there is no evidence for this. Nizami uses Aran actually and he pronounced Azerbaijan like a Persian Adharabaadegaan. Nizami's mother was Kurdish and his father's ancestry goes back to the Shaddadid era. Some sources say Qom. For example a four hundred year source mentions his father being from Qom while Nizami was born in Ganja. That is actually not the same as the two verses in some verions Eskandarnama which he claims to be from Tafresh near Qom. That is a biography of him mentions Qom as his fathers and Nizami being born in Ganja which is not exactly the same as two verses which he claims to be from Qom. This might make some sense in my opinion based on the fact that after being orphaned early, Nizami Ganjavi was raised by his Kurdish uncle and not as traditionally by his father side. So his father might have very well be an immigrant from the area.
Either way his fathers ancestry pre-dates the Seljuq take-over of Ganja. And we can see the family is urban while he points to nomadic lifestyle amongst Turks. Anyhow Nizami was orphaned early and raised with his Kurdish uncle. That is he was raised in a Iranic environment. What is important is culture. And his stories are based on Shahnameh and Haft Paykar, Sekandarnama, Khusraw o Shirin all have to do with pre-Islamic and Islamic Persian folklore and not Oghuz folklore (like Dede Qorqud). Even Lili o Majnoon which is originally an Arab based story was already popular in Persian poetry (Rudaki mentions it and so does Kashf-al-Mahjub). He not only wrote in the Persian language but he voluntarily chose Persian folklore and stories. That is the Haft Paykar and Khusraw o Shirin, unlike Lili o Majnoon were chosen voluntarily by Nizami Ganjavi. These are Sassanid based stories and give much valuable information on pre-Islamic Iran. He even took hit from a friend for rekindling the stories of Zoroastrians. So culturally he was not a Turk and after-all he was raised by a Kurdish maternal uncle.
About Kurdish mother lineage (hence his maternal uncle who raised as well while he was orphaned early from his father), here are some sources. Valadimir Minorsky writes(V. Minorsky, Studies in Caucasian history, Cambridge University Press, 1957. pg 34):
“The author of the collection of documents relating to Arran Mas’ud b. Namdar (c. 1100) claims Kurdish nationality. The mother of the poet Nizami of Ganja was Kurdish (see autobiographical digression in the introduction of Layli wa Majnun). In the 16th century there wasa group of 24 septs of Kurds in Qarabagh, see Sharaf-nama, I, 323. Even now the Kurds of the USSR are chiefly grouped south of Ganja. Many place-names composed with Kurd are found on both banks of the Kur”
Also Vladimir Minorsky writes(C. H. Darab, Mlakhzanol Asrar, 1945, pp. 55-61 (reviewed by Minorsky, BSOAS., 1948, xii/2, 441-5)):
"Whether Nizami --as born in Qom or in Ganja is not quite clear. The verse (quoted on p. 14) : " I am lost as a pearl in the sea of Ganja, yet I am from the Qohestan of the city of Qom ", does not expressly mean that he was born in Qom. On the other hand, Nizami's mother was of Kurdish origin, and this might point to Ganja where the Kurdish dynasty of Shaddad ruled down to AH. 468 ; even now Kurds are found to the south of Ganja."
Professor Julie Scott Meysami also states the same: (Nizami Ganjavi, A. The Haft Paykar: A Medieval Persian Romance. Translated with introduction and notes by Julie Scott Meisami. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 1995.)
“His father, who had migrated to Ganja from Qom in north central Iran, may have been a civil cervant; his mother was a daughter of a Kurdish chieftain; having lost both parents early in his life, Nizâmî was brought up by an uncle. He was married three times, and in his poems laments the death of each of his wives, as well as proffering advice to his son Muhammad.“
Jan Rypka (Rypka, Jan. ‘Poets and Prose Writers of the Late Saljuq and Mongol Periods’, in The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 5, The Saljuq and Mongol Periods, ed., Published January 1968. pg 578) :
“Little is known of his life, the only source being his own works, which in many cases provided no reliable information. We can only deduce that he was born between 535 and 540 (1140-46) and this his background was urban. Modern Azarbaijan is exceedingly proud of its world famous son and insists that he was not just a native of the region, but that he came from its own Turkic stock. At all events his mother was of Iranian origin, the poet himself calling her Ra’isa and describing her as Kurdish.”
Anyhow Nizami Ganjavi defines himself by his work, he says I am nothing but these verses. And in Wikipedia this is a compromise version (for example Persian language poet can be changed to Persian poet based on google book or based on Britannica we can say Nizami is widely enjoyed in Persian speaking countries). So I think a shared approach which this compromise version has and is stable is the best.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 16:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] minor change

Just a correction. Nizami uses the form : "Atabak" rather than "Atabeg" in his poetry. Example: اتابک را بگوید کای جهانگیر Although it is hard to tell since K and G are close. Also the etymology would generally be Turkic (the term being used from Syria all the way to Persian Gulf and etc) rather than Azerbaijani since Azerbaijani-Turkish was not separate from other Oghuz related dialects when the word actually developed (Beg actually being possibly Sogdian loanword). But there is no need to put etymologies of various words (Darband, Azerbaijan(Nizami uses Adharābādegān which is how it is writen in the Shahnameh and older Persian manuscripts), Khusraw, Mahin Banu, Parviz, Hormozd, Shirin, Bahram, Shirvanshah, Ganja, Bahram Gur, and Yazdegerd etc.) unless it is a title of one of his works or something. Titles are treated in their own related articles. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 02:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] removed

I removed the repeated statement: Often referred to by the honorific Hakim "the Sage", Nezami is both a learned poet and master of a lyrical and sensuous style. His poems show that not only was he fully acquainted with Arabic and Persian literature and with oral and written popular and local traditions, but was also familiar with such diverse fields as mathematics, geometry, astronomy and astrology, alchemy, medicine, Koranic exegesis, Islamic theology and law, history, ethnics, philosophy and esoteric thought, music and the visual arts.

Since it was repeated twice and it is under the Education section. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 11:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Don't get

I don't get it why nobody born from azerbaijan can not be considered an azeri.f.e Shah ismail khatai somebody wrote that he has armenian mother or kurdish background samething with Nizami POEPLE HE WAS AN AZERI with AZERI background not kurdish and not armenian i don't understand why all pople hate so much azeris and can't accept that azeris could do such beautiful works SHAME. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.132.102.42 (talk) 16:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

HI, I wouldn't take these things personally. These are discussions on history. And it is obvious that people of the same civilization when divided into separate countries will think of the relics of the old civilization they all had a share in as part of their own. Firstly whoever hates Azeris or any other group in the region is an idiot! Second the Azerbaijani Turkish language has produced beautiful works and masterpieces including Fizuli, Shahriyar and Nasimi. On the Safavids, they were turcophones since 1501 but their origin is murky. I consider them a classical Iranian dynasty who combined both Turkomen tribal elements and Iranic elements. I don't think anyone wrote they had Armenian background but Kurdish background for Safavids is mentioned by good deal of scholars and I believe they were not of Oghuz origin from their paternal line [3]. Anyhow Safavids culturally were classical Azeri and of course an Iranian dynasty since they called their land Iran. You can think of it this way. Shahriyar was an Iranian Azeri and an Azeri poet. But his ancestry is actually Seyyed going back to the prophet Muhammad. So culture and origin may differ. Nizami Ganjavi on the other hand belongs to Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kurdistan (areas which I consider part of the Iranian civilization). In my opinion Azeris have Iranian civilization as well and so they also share in the heritage of Nizami Ganjavi. His motherline was Kurdish for sure and about his father, I firmly believe it was Iranic while others might have a different opinion. Culturally though there is no doubt about the fact that he belongs to the civilization which encompasses the regions I mentioned. Recently, I even read someone proposed Arabic or whatever which I believe was way of the base. Anyhow, he was orphaned very early and lived with his maternal uncle. So his civilization that he belongs has to do with his own culture and language he created his masterpieces in. That is why the article is a compromised version: [4]. Outside of Wikipedia though, you are free to do your own research like I have [5][6] and that is why a compromised version works for Wikipedia. Also disagreeing about Nizami Ganjavi (I do not think his ancestors were Oghuz Turkomens but they were Iranian speaking) does not mean that he does not belong to Azerbaijan as well the countries I mentioned. Nizami in my opinion belongs to the greater Iranian civilization which the Azerbaijan republic was part of. Others may differ, so that is why this is a compromised version that has stuck. In the end he belongs to Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kurdistan. Hopefully once the nationalistic fervor tones down in the republic of Azerbaijan (due to the recent war it is fairly high) and also there is change in the political climate of Iran, Iranian and Azerbaijani republic scholars will gather together and agree that Nizami Ganjavi is a shared regional heritage. Overall there is no doubt that Azerbaijani-Turkish language has also produced great poets like Fizuli, Shahriyar, Nasimi, Akhundzadeh and many others. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 05:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)