Talk:New York State Route 22

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Good article New York State Route 22 has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
Article Improvement Drive New York State Route 22 was the New York State routes Article Improvement Drive collaboration for the week spanning from Sunday, November 25, 2007.
For more details, see the New York State routes Article Improvement Drive archive.
New York State Route 22 is a selected article of the New York State routes WikiProject; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the WikiProject and serves as a model for all other New York State route articles to emulate. If you can update or improve it, please do.
This article was featured on WP:NYSR in February 2008.
To-do list for New York State Route 22: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Infobox junctions -- needs to be streamlined

Y Done

  • Needs a map

Y Done (Thanks to User:TwinsMetsFan for creating the map)

  • Route description -- Ideally, this should not merely be a "mechanical" description of where the road goes as this is a scenic road. Where possible, add terrain descriptions, major changes in road character, historic districts/attractions passed through, etc. We also need pictures, preferably one for each region the road passes through.

Y Done Description completely rewritten. Will put up a suggested picture list on talk page. Daniel Case (talk) 04:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

  • History -- Were any parts of the road improved and used for through traffic before the 20th century? Did it ever serve as an auto trail? When did the state designate the route as a state road? How was the road first signed when public signing of highways began? Are there major alignment changes/extensions/truncations? Any major roadway construction of note? Any special designations and when were they assigned? Any plans for the corridor?

Y Done Most of the more important history has been included. Some minor details may need to be fleshed out and sourced.

  • Major intersections -- appears generally complete but could use some tweaks

Y Done

Contents

[edit] New England route?

I was able to get a copy of a 1925 ALA Automobile Green Book. It lists the routing of the New England routes but does not include a Route 22 in its list. This leads me to believe that NY 22 was never a New England route. The road is definitely numbered 22 (from NYC to Hillsdale) in 1925 but is more likely a New York state highway number that just happens to fit the New England numbering system. Does anyone have more definitive information regarding NY 22 as a New England route? --Polaron | Talk 04:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for History

Snce we're not allowed to add anything to this page right now, here's one of the most obvious sources for the history of NY 22(http://www.nycroads.com/roads/state_NYC/). There are also old maps that prove it went into Manhattan. ----DanTD (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can add to the history, I put the inuse tag on the Route description.Mitch32contribs 19:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History notes

  • In the early days, the part south of Austerlitz (?) was roughly defined legislatively as Route 1. [1] North of Hoosick to Putnam was Route 22 (total coincidence).
Signed numbers
  • 1924: 22 NYC to Hillsdale, 24 Stephentown to Comstock
  • By 1926: 30 Comstock to Mooers
  • Note US 7 in 1926
  • By 1930: 22 Hillsdale to Valatie, 24 Austerlitz to Stephentown
    • 1930 renumbering: 22 became NYC to Mooers, Austerlitz to Valatie became 203, Granville to Comstock became 40 (but 22 has since been moved back)
Turnpikes and other old roads

Some information about widening: [2]

--NE2 14:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is the original alignment south of White Plains?

Does anyone have better information for the original alignment south of White Plains? Various sources are inconsistent. Any help would be appreciated. --Polaron | Talk 17:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

  • unclear but appears to be roughly White Plains Rd then modern 22[3]
  • Bronx River Pkwy,Oak St,Lincoln Ave,Columbus Ave,modern 22 [4]
  • Bronx River Pkwy,Midland Ave,Main St,White Plains Post Rd,modern 22 [5]
  • Bronx River Pkwy all the way to Kensico [6]
  • Bronx River Pkwy [7]
  • 1926 and 1927 Automobile Blue Book turn by turn guides indicate Central Park Avenue was Route 22
  • 1930 and 1931 Green Book maps are unclear but appear to use Bronx River Pkwy to roughly Bronxville then shift to White Plains Post Rd

1928 matches 1926 except that the US 7 shield is gone. I don't think we can necessarily assume that the thick line is NY 22 unless it has shields.

New York Times articles appear to be useless, talking about various routes that lead to Route 22 at White Plains without saying which is 22. One article from 1927 does state that it goes "through Bronxville and White Plains". A 1931 book says that it's on the Bronx River Parkway.

From these sources, it appears to have used roughly its present route until the parkway was completed, and then moved to the parkway. However, the 1932-1934 plans for marked routes in NYC all had it cross the border on White Plains Road, and in 1937 it used the current routing through White Plains. The "Route 1" defined by 1909 to be maintained by the state did not specify the exact route, but went through Mount Vernon and Eastchester and then along White Plains Post Road. --NE2 20:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's quite clear that it used Columbus Avenue south of Mount Vernon center. Also, the Bronx River Parkway does not technically pass through either Mount Vernon or Bronxdale (in Eastchester town). When was the Bronx River Parkway opened anyway? My buest guess would be that it used White Plains Post Road from Mount Vernon and Bronx River Parkway from the NYC line to Mount Vernon. So what's the best way to describe the original alignment? --Polaron | Talk 21:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we have enough information yet to say. --NE2 22:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I see what you mean about the 1932-34 NYC marked route plans. Why would these plans continue Route 22 on White Plains Road unless it is White Plains Road that is marked in Mount Vernon as NY 22 (at least after 1931). So perhaps NY 22 did follow more or less the White Plains Road to Mount Vernon center and shifted to the Post Road north of there (roughly the old White Plains Post Road). Maybe it was routed on the Bronx River Parkway only from 1929-1931? --Polaron | Talk 21:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

About the routing in Mount Vernon: the NYSDOT quad shows that it's locally maintained in the city. Ths was probably the case from the beginning, as a 1908 map shows the same city limits. I would guess that the signed route followed 1st Street and Lincoln Avenue to Columbus Avenue; these are paved on the 1908 map. --NE2 22:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Route description ideas

Polaron asked me, as part of the collaboration drive, to take a look at rewriting this one in the same more fluid, organic style that I've done for other routes. I certainly will, although I have limited familiarity with the actual road north of Petersburg and south of Bedford. I will do my usual research with Google Maps and visualizations based on close readings of the map.

I propose to jettison the current structure (the Catskills? Come on! And it "enters" the Hudson Valley at Brewster? It's roughly the same distance from the river at that point, and frankly it's so far east I don't consider it a Hudson Valley route, particularly since some sections in northern Dutchess are in the Housatonic watershed) and divide it into the following subsections, based on the character of the road and the landscape it passes through:

  • Bronx to Kensico Reservoir: This is where 22 is just another urban-suburban artery. I would guess these first fifteen miles or so probably contain a solid majority of people who live along the road.
  • Kensico Reservoir to Brewster: That traffic circle that marks the beginning of the Taconic marks a major change in 22. It turns to the northeast and starts to become the two-lane rural eastern sentinel route the majority of it is known for. This section crosses I-684 several times, meanders through a lot of pricey communities, begins to parallel the Connecticut border in some places, and picks up the Harlem Line near its northern end.
  • Taconics and Berkshires: Nothing east of the Hudson is the Catskills, wherever some people in New York City believe their weekend places are. Not geologically, not culturally. Once it crosses I-84, 22 straightens out and runs relatively close to the state line (nearly entering Massachusetts at one point in Austerlitz south of the Thruway). Metro-North follows it closely to Wassaic, where it ends (currently). This section, especially up in Columbia County, is rather lonely, wooded and rural, passing few major communities of consequence save Pawling. But it's quite beautiful and fun to drive.
  • Hoosick Falls to Whitehall: Or should I just say Washington County? This area seems to be gently rolling farmland and woodlots of the type pictured. Again, comes real close to the Vermont state line south of Granville.
  • Adirondacks and Lake Champlain: More about the latter than the former. Some exciting places like Ticonderoga and Crown Point.
  • Clinton County: Keeseville to the border. Here 22 changes places with Route 9, running further to the west, inland, while 9 runs along the lake. 22 passes through Plattsburgh but otherwise avoids any settlements of consequence.

Speaking of settlements, we have to trim down that communities box. Many are far too inconquential to be listed separately in a communities box for a route of this length. I'll do that before calling it a night. Daniel Case 07:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested pictures

Other than the few that are in there, anyway. The nice thing about this road as opposed to Route 9 is that, as a rural route there are far less in the way of particular places that just have to be in there. So, we can concentrate on roadscapes that express the essence of a region without worrying too much about where.

My list:

  • Bronx-White Plains: A busy section of street, preferably looking down the road, something showing us the heavy traffic and population of this area, so unlike the rest of the road.
If you want a backup, I was able to get the first NY 22 reassurance shield in the Bronx.Mitch32contribs 22:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Westchester horse country. There are so many great places for this. Downtown Bedford? The winding, shady lane feel you get there and in Somers and (especially) North Salem? I would like, however, to make sure an image of John Jay's house gets here as one of the few National Historic Landmarks right on 22 itself as opposed to nearby roads. The only one, in fact.
  • Harlem Valley. There are some great vistas along the section north of Pawling. Views that can make you think of England. We'll have to wait for warmer weather, though.
I found one near Patterson, actually, where the road goes down a drop and these hills loom in the distance. It sort of makes the point ... if you had come all the way from the Bronx, you'd definitely feel you'd reached upstate at this point. Daniel Case (talk) 05:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Taconics. The way that ridge just north of Millerton looms from near the 44 and 199 junctions, has to be in here. Especially if you can get that bend the road takes into the village in the foreground.
  • Berkshires. Something in that deep wooded valley between Stephentown and Petersburgh, perhaps?
  • Washington County. I like what we already have, but if someone else has or finds something even better, go to it!
  • Adirondack Park and Lake Champlain. Something along the shore that's picturesque.
  • Plattsburgh. A street scene.
  • Clinton County. Those pine stands mentioned in the text?

I can try for some of these closer to the south end, but it will have to wait till warm weather. Daniel Case (talk) 05:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nice to have but not necessary

  • I-84 bridge north of Brewster. I described it in the text but a picture adds so much. A stitched panorama might be necessary. Looks like a shot from the railroad bridge provides the best angle[8]. This is a really stunning sight even in low light and bad weather ... in summer it would look very cool. Could also be used in the 6 and 202 articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Case (talk • contribs) 02:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually got this one today too. The shot from the rr bridge wouldn't work; I could tell due to the wires. Instead I got one that shows the road and the interstate high above it. Daniel Case (talk) 05:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Old maps

And might we be able to get some old maps to illustrate the history section? Daniel Case (talk) 18:13, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The main issue I guess is that many of the maps used as a basis for the early numbering history are copyrighted. It should be possible to create our own maps though. For the routing in NYC, there should be some USGS maps available online that we can crop to show the exact alignment. --Polaron | Talk 00:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Any maps we create from old maps would be derivative works and couldn't be free images. While we should look for public domain images (i.e. USGS maps) to illustrate some of the former routings, I think a section of the old map could be considered historic and irreplaceable as long as the other fair use criteria were observed. Daniel Case (talk) 16:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
It's only a derivative work if we incorporate some of the copyrightable elements, such as style. --NE2 15:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Or if some of the information thereon were proprietary, which is usually difficult if not impossible when making maps. However, remember that mapmakers do put copyright traps in their maps, usually not in the rumored form of paper-only streets but often by the extent to which they show the headwaters of streams. That element can also be considered copyright-eligible. However, it won't be a problem here. Daniel Case (talk) 02:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Assessment

Here is my assessment. GA review (see here for criteria)

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

Further examination of my findings:

  • No evidence of original research. YesY
  • The prose was readable, and could address a wide-range of audiences. YesY
  • References were provided, and were reliable making all claims verifiable. YesY
  • All images were appropriately captioned. YesY
  • No images are/were flagged as having no source, no licensing information or were used with no-fair use rationale where appropriate. YesY
    • A very well written article in my opinion, and I'd suggest asking for an A-class assessment. It's definite that it would meet that criteria. Well done to all those involved, I am passing this article. Rt. 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)