Talk:New York City Fire Department

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New York City Fire Department is part of WikiProject Fire Service, which collaborates on fire service-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

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[edit] Fighting 6019 NPOV

I removed the duplication of the Fighting 6019 section. This also appears to not be NPOV. NB-NB 18:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bronx Firefighters?

I'm wondering if this section really makes sense. Is there anything in particular about Bronx firefighters that makes them significantly different from those in any other borough? RoySmith 17:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

There are no significant differences between Bronx firefighters and any other NYC borough. Also, FDNY firefighters do not work 72 shifts as mentioned in this section, but two 16 hour and two 8 hour tours a week. In practice, firefighters arrange with a partner to swap shifts, then working a "twenty-four". Department policy would prohibit a firefighter from working anywhere near 72 consecutive hours.John mcgivney 23:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Added...

I added a bit about EMS operations run by the Fire Department. The original article maded it seem like EMS is primarily run by hospitals, with Fire Department units filling in here and there, when in actuality it is more the other way around. I also added a little trivia about call volume and Hazmat. Comments?

[edit] Structure...?

I don't know anywhere near enough to add anything, but a description of how everything works (eg. alarms assingments) and where everybody is etc might be helpful in expanding this article. the FDNY is the biggest Fire Dept. in the world, there must be a load more info out there that can be added, so if you do know anything about the FDNY at all, please add it to help expand this article.

[edit] Maybe I can help

I'm a firefighter with FDNY, however I'm a little new to wikipedia. I'll be glad to help but may need a hand with actually writing. Let me know.

[edit] Help is Here

I'm not a member of the NYFD, but I am a NYC Civil Servant, and have access to resources on the NYFD History. I've already added a structure for the FDNY Table of Organization, and I have information on the Fire Houses, and the unit Histories. This is a LONG term project which will not be completed in a few days or seeks. The more hands, the better.

BTW, as to the issue of separate borough coverage, there is the problem of the fact that the NYFD dates back to the consolidation of five former County Fire Departments, each with a long history. Some of that will be addressed in the Unit Numbers, which - to a limited degree - reflect the Borough of Assignment. Most of that limitation is due to the facts of the existiance of the separate Brooklyn Fire Department when Brooklyn was the fourth largest city in the USA, and the consolidation of former Volunteer Fire Companies into the County Fire Departments and/or the NYFD over the years. This is NOT a simple issue. For example, Bronx units that pre-exist the consolidation were part of the Westchester County system, NOT the NYFD system. Likewise, the same situation was extant when Queens County included all of today's Nassau County. Again, this is NOT a simple issue. We will have to take it one Company at a time.

CORNELIUSSEON 23:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I've started adding informatio9ns on the operating Divisions, and Quarters.

CORNELIUSSEON 20:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No mention of the funding they gave to IRA terrorists?

hmm, could do with being in there

I presume you're referring to some sort of involvement with NORAID, but you might want to acutally contribute or cite something.

[edit] FDNY Necrology

That article has been tagged for some time now with no responses, so I figured I would try to get some input from here. The info in that other article is not nearly enough to stand on its own; I can't even make heads or tails of it. As far as I can tell, it's a building that was abandoned a hundred years ago and is now a rec center.

My first instinct was to nominate it for deletion, but it links from here so maybe someone here can salvage it. Since I can't tell what it's supposed to be, I can't tell how to merge it into the FDNY article. But as it is, it's almost patent nonsense. Kafziel 18:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I nominate Necrology for deletion. There are entire websites devoted to this level of detail and even those aren't complete. You can't create pages for each FDNY unit. It is nuts... Daysleeper47 14:07, 29 March 2006

All right. It's been tagged for long enough with no other replies, and there are only 15 Google hits for "FDNY Necrology", all of which are mirrors of Wikipedia. Kafziel 19:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I have merged what content I could and made the page into a redirect. Kafziel 19:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Updates

Is there any opposition to removing all the headers to bureaus that no one is really that interested in...not to mention are blank. I'm a firefighter with the city and would love to help add worthwile content.Funkylb 21:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, not hearing any discussion i'm going to proceed. If we want to add some of this stuff back in we can but it's empty space right now. I'll try to get a good outline created so we can start adding worthwile content.Funkylb 18:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who's this page aimed at?

It looks very much like this page is written by firefighters for firefighters, or buffs. It's full of unexplained jargon, and isn't as informative as it could be to someone who doesn't live in NYC. It could benefit from some up to date stats, (I appreciate the comments above that this is an ongoing project) but:

How big is the FDNY, is it the biggest in the world? Would that be measured by geographic area?
How many calls does it receive compared to say the London Fire Brigade?
Heading s such as 'Company Assignments' and CIDS are pure jargon and aren't properly explained to the non-firefighting reader
Even I as a non-New Yorker know about the Bureau of Fire Investigation - where is this on the page? There is no link to Fire Marshal, even though such a page exists on Wikipedia.
What is a 'group' referring to? Again this page is completely meaningless to an outsider.
There have been several good books written about the FDNY including Braving the Flames, and Marshals - surely references to these could help put the story in context. I've added the line about the 1972 BBC documentary.--Escaper7 14:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let me know

Yes I am a firefighter...thus it may be hard for me to see that a term may not be understood. If add something and it's not fully understood please let me know as opposed to just pulling it off. That Escaper7 is the first to post any requests for information. I'm not sure what people want to know about. I would rather focus my limited time to those items that people are interested in. One very common question I get is about the work schedule, that's why I added the section. Admittedly there is a lot that I don't know about. The Marshalls are one of them. I can find some basic info that will be nothing more then a statement of info found in other places. I will start work on that when I get a chance. I will also try to clearify the work schedule section when I get a chance.

Again please let me know if terms are not explained well enough or if there is something specific you would like to see.--Funkylb 18:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is looking better, but what I'd like to know is how big is the FDNY compared to other fire services in terms of geography and number of calls/runs. I added the 2005 fire stats but wouldn't know if (I was completely ignorant as some readers might be) whether calls have gone up or down. What's changed/is changing about the FDNY (ie closure of fire marshal bases), what developments are there in firefighting techniques and equipment? and I've listed for example the stats on an 'all hands' incident, but how would the non-specialist know what this jargon means? As I said above, terms like 'company assignment' are meaningless to the non-specialist - if it's worthy of a sub-section, it's surely worth more than one line of text??? But the article is looking a lot better, it simply needs to be expanded. Escaper7 00:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bit of a mess

The addition on several random images splashed all over this article hasn't really done much to help an article that was already lacking in fact (see comments above). I propose that the unintelligible images be removed. I appreciate that the events of 9/11 are a sensitive subject, so I also propose that a new article is started that deals with the FDNY's handling of those incidents. Any thoughts, otherwise I think it should be reverted as soon as. Escaper7 11:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's odd compared to formatting for other articles. Give me a bit of time and I will try to clean it up but I don't think it needs to be removed just yet. --Paul E. Ester 14:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with the idea of the creation of a new article, since there appears to be enough material for that. Alternatively the material can be folded in to Rescue and recovery effort after the September 11, 2001 attacks. --Oden 14:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I've created a new page at the Wikimedia Commons: Commons:New York City Fire Department which contains links to all the free images on this page. --Oden 23:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks much better, Thanks! --Paul E. Ester 01:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what purpose the images of the deceased ffs serves, especially for an encyclopedia. When the image is clicked to enlarge, it's impossible to see the ffs names, and why should we highlight ffs killed in one (albeit major) incident, when the article is generally about the FDNY? There are still some woefully inadequate sections in this article: Company assignments for example that are more worthy of the attention. Escaper7 09:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see if it is possible to bring this article up to the standard of a featured article, although that would require alot of work. As for the fire fighters killed on 9/11, maybe they deserve their own list (such as a List of FDNY fire fighters killed on September 11, 2001)? --Oden 20:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you using firefox? Firefox will not display the full size image unless you zoom it, It annoyingly resizes it to the window size, these are huge high res images (2484x2854, 806 KB)) very viewable. Give it another look. This could become an FA it's headed in the right direction. --Paul E. Ester 21:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Companies

Interesting new section, but it still assumes that the reader has some sense of what the various units do in terms of function. How about tabulating the details, and giving a brief description on the role of an engine, ladder, squad and so on - it's still a bit vague for an encyclopedia. Escaper7 04:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't Rescue 6/Collapse 6 disbanded? --Long live Hank 21:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes and the article has been changed to reflect that. Nice catch. --Daysleeper47 21:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tables

Lots of new information and comprehensive lists, but can someone have a go at building some tables so the text is spread across the page? There is also a way of putting lists into columns side by side - but I can't remember how to do it. Escaper7 15:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested improvements

Suggested improvements

Create a separate article for the FDNY EMS. There appears to be enough information for a separate article on the subject, which would also free up space in this article.
Create a List of FDNY fire houses. Same reasons as above, see for instance here for links to home pages.

Feel free to comment or suggest additional improvements! --Oden 17:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Good points - I agree Escaper7 10:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AOL FDNY EMS website

Could those users who are engaging in a slow edit war over this link please stop adding and deleting and discuss it here instead. Thanks. --Siobhan Hansa 16:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I originally removed the link a few days ago, and looks like there has been some back and forth movement since then from anon AOL users. My rationale for originally removing the link:

It is not notable (it's on members.aol.com)
It doesn't add anything to the article except useless ranting from disgruntled employees.
Per WP:EL, it is a link to be avoided since it:

Provides factually incorrect or uncited information in violation of WP:RS.
It is likely being added by the website owner, bringing up a npov conflict of interest, as well as link-spamming.

I'd be interested to hear what the consensus about the inclusion of this link is though. Leuko 04:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about FDNY EMS so it was interesting to see that there appears to be some controversy, stemming (it seems) from the issues mentioned in the section on EMS. As a reader of Wikipedia, I don't find the link itself to be a useful one. As Lueko says, it does seem to be a forum for rants from disgruntled employees. So I'm currently in favor of leaving it off. I'd much rather see any (significant) controversy better summarized in the EMS section and well sourced. I think that would be more informative to someone reading the article. --Siobhan Hansa 13:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not a reliable source and neither the website or the individual(s) or organisation running it are mentioned in the article. However, the website does raise some interesting issues regarding the FDNY EMS, their relationship to the FDNY fire fighters and pre-hospital care in New York City in general. Perhaps a separate article on the FDNY EMS or Pre-hospital care in New York City could be created to expand on the subject, provided reliable sources are used in a neutral fashion? --Oden 13:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fire Department Volunteers

This statement here appears incorrect: Westchester County (which would later become the Bronx) was annexed by New York in 1874 and the volunteers there were phased out and replaced by the paid department. The borough of Queens became a part of New York in 1887, and here also the volunteers began to be replaced by the paid department. (The last volunteer unit in the Bronx disbanded in 1928 and the last volunteer units in Queens disbanded in 1929.) There are several volunteer companies in NYC although they are not part of FDNY. Can someone clarify this statement? Thanks! --Daysleeper47 12:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commissioners of the New York City Fire Department

Any historical information and/or background about past Commissioners of the New York City Fire Department would be greatly appreciated! It seems that the official FDNY website is sorely lacking in historical information about the men who have been Fire Commissioner since the Consolidation of the City of New York in 1898. Thanks! --Bababooey 05:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FDNY: Brothers In Battle

I dont really know how to use Wikipedia. Hopefully some of you guys might consider adding this as a new section following the "Bronx is Burning" section of the article.

FDNY: Brothers In Battle In 1991, brothers Brian and Raymond Hickey [6] produced a flattering documentary about the FDNY. Narrated by Ed Seere, Firefighters: Brothers in Battle[7] is widely regarded as the most popular and inclusive documentary about the department. The fim features footage of fires and rescues throughout the five boroughs of New York City, including the infamous "Happy Land Social Club" fire which killed 87 persons, dramatic rescues from a crashed airplane off of La Guardia Airport, and footage and interviews at Medal Day 1991. Unfortunately, Raymond died of cancer in 1993 and Brian was tragically killed on September 11 while operating at the World Trade Center. [8]Brian last served as Captain of Rescue Company 4 in Queens. Their work has captured the traditions, history and meaning of the Fire Department of the City of New York and will live on in their honor and memory. Synopsis [9]: The Fire Department of New York City is the busiest in the nation. From battles against arson to daring rescue attempts, follow these real-life heroes into the flames and witness the incredible danger they face every day. BROTHERS IN BATTLE shows what it means to be a firefighter in today's world. From the nightmarish daily battles with arson, including startling footage of the infamous Happy Land Social Club mass-murder, to a desperate rescue attempt after a terrifying plane crash in the freezing waters of the Atlantic, the only constant in their work is danger. Witness the selfless heroism, the split-second decisions, and the supreme sacrifices made by these real-life heroes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.165.42.13 (talk) 08:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Boro of Queens

"The borough of Queens became a part of New York in 1887"

As far as I see, this isn't so. The old Queens County was only split into its current parts (Queens Borough and Nassau County), and the western part joined the City of Greater New York, a dozen years later. I hesitate to delete the clause because it may perhaps refer to some other significant event. Jim.henderson 05:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Jim, it isn't cited so feel free to replace that information with cited info. Thanks for the catch. --Daysleeper47 12:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed section

I removed the following:

=== Air Support Controversy=== At present the FDNY, although it is the largest fire department in the world, does not have its own helicopters. Instead it must rely on using one of the seven (7) helicopters operated by the New York Police Department. Under a widely criticized protocol, when a major fire or incident occurs, the Fire Department dispatches one of four (4) specially trained battalion chiefs in Brooklyn to Floyd Bennett Field where they have to wait for a police helicopter to take them (and a firefighter aide) over the scene. This Air Reconnaissance program has been in effect since 2002, but still displays a very poor response time, averaging more than a half-hour. This is in contrast to a city like Chicago, where its Fire Department's own Air-Sea rescue helicopter can be over any part of the city in eight (8) minutes or less. On November 26, 2007, on WABC-TV (NY), the flagship station of ABC-TV (a Disney company), Lead Investigative Correspondent Jim Hoffer did a special report called "Eye in the Sky", on the 11PM Newscast anchored by Bill Ritter and Liz Cho. In his piece the last two former FDNY Chiefs of Department --- Peter E. Hayden and Daniel Nigro --- were highly critical of the use of police helicopters, while the present Chief, Salvatore Cassano, a policy supporter, in an on-camera interview appeared out of touch with the realities of the response delays as proved by the records of his own agency. Although both Chief Cassano and the NYPD claimed that the program worked very well, when Mr. Hoffer asked Chief Cassano if he thought that a one hour time frame for the arrival of the FDNY air reconnaissance officer was too long, the Chief replied "Yes". When advised that was exactly what happened in the summer of 2007 when a Con Edison steampipe exploded in Midtown Manhattan, the Chief seemed at a loss for words. And while the NYPD's spokesman, Deputy Commissioner Paul Browne, claimed that their Aviation Unit logs showed the air recon chief arrived sooner, this was wholly inconsistent with the fire department's computer records and radio tapes of the six-alarm incident. This controversy is ongoing and in large part involves a century-old turf battle between the police and fire departments, and the unwillingness of the last three (3) mayors of NYC to challenge the police department's "air supremacy" reign over fire and other emergency incidents in the five boroughs. As more evidence comes out that the New York Fire Department in the 21st Century needs its own air support wing (the Uniformed Firefighters Association has already taken that as a formal position), change seems inevitable, although the current Fire Commissioner, Nicholas Scopetta, and Mayor Bloomberg, are publicly opposed to such a modernization of fire department capabilities.

It is very much in violation of WP NPOV policy and uncited. If someone wants to cite it, clean it, and re-add it, feel free. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 12:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is a link to the article where this news story came from. [1] rhvanwinkle 17:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:New York City Fire Department Emblem.svg

Image:New York City Fire Department Emblem.svg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I took care of this. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 13:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)