Talk:New Wave of British Heavy Metal

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Article merged: See old talk-page here —Preceding unsigned comment added by VirtualSteve (talk • contribs) 23:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


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[edit] NWOBHM history

Does the whole second paragraph of the history section look like drivel to anyone else? It's the same sort of weasel words and uncited ranting that you'd find in an 8th grade report. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.149.134 (talk) 06:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Connection between Traditional Heavy Metal and Power Metal? I fail to see much connection between Motörhead and Blind Guardian. Admittedly, Motörhead's not the best representative of "Traditional Heavy Metal," if there is such a thing, but I still don't see it. Maybe power metal is descended with Judas Priest and Iron Maiden, but so is... well, almost all of metal. --leigh

No German metal bands on the list? Why? While not acctually from Britain they were in the same timeline, shared the same musical influences, played largely the same kind of music, used the English language and interacted with the British scene a great deal.

I agree, Scorpions should be on here, even though they were German they still played heavy metal and NWOBHM.

Scorpions? What the hell? Let me explain what the NWOBHM was; it lasted from roughly 1979-83/4, and was made up of British metal bands, many of whom were very young and using the punk-stlye "Do It Yourself" aesthetic, ie pressing thier own singles and occasionally albums or arranging their own gigs. Judas Priest, Motorhead, AC/DC and Scorpions have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, and it's something that really does irritate me, being a fan of the genre. Motorhead were formed in 1975, which happens to be the same year as some real NWOBHM bands such as Witchfynde or Iron Maiden, but Motorhead were already established players, and pretty much had a record deal within a few months. Judas Priest had been around as a band since 1969, which obviously means they are not part of the movement - they're mistaken as part of it by Americans, who seem to think that thier breakthrough album, 1980's British Steel, qualifies them to be part of it, not the fact that they were already one of the most established metal bands on the planet, already successful in the UK, Europe and Japan, and been recording albums since 1974. As for Scorpions and AC/DC... What the hell? Scorpions are German, and had been together in one way or another since 1965, though going down a heavier route with Michael Schenker joining in 1972, a year before their debut album - no way! Same goes for AC/DC; wrong country, been around since the early 70s, though it should be noted a lot of the band (4 of the 5 current members) were born in the UK, and were at their most successful at the time; still, this is no reason for them to be part of it. Anyone idiotic enough to think that (Compared to actual NWOBHM bands) would probably consider Bonnett-era Rainbow, Dio-era Black Sabbath, or even Ozzy's early solo work as NWOBHM! Similar story with Budgie: One of Black Sabbath's rivals in the early 70s (Ok, not so much a rival, but a similar sound, and 2 UK Top 40 albums), but becoming popular again in the late 1970s and early 1980s with John Thomas replacing Tony Bourge on Guitar, introducing a more modern style than their previous mixture of Funk, Metal, Hard Rock and Prog-Rock.

The only old guys (As compared to, say, Diamond Head, who formed the band at ages 16-17 in the late 70s) who can be considered part of it could be Quartz; debut album 1977, formed in 1974 as Bandy Legs, changing their name after becoming a full-on metal band having supported Black Sabbath. Thier record label went bust, and relaunched themselves with a slightly harder-edged style with a series of independent releases, culminating in the "Stand Up and Fight" album in 1980, thorugh Neat/MCA (Yeah, NWOBHM indie label with major label affiliation!). As for foreign guys... I guess Nightmare (of France) and Swedish metallers EF Band and Syron Vanes could be called part of the movement, coming over here and becoming part of it (Nightmare and Syron Vanes being signed to Ebony, the NWOBHM label which was also home to Grim Reaper). German bands part of it? Yeah, right... I admite Mad Max have a rather NWOBHM-ish sound, but were never actually involved in it at all, solely came about making similar music at a similar time... this was all a British phenomenon, as Geoff Barton wrote recently in Classic Rock Magazine, one of the "Most Fertile" periods in British Rock.

Link between NWOBHM and power metal? Cloven Hoof, Elixir and Satan (Blind Guardian covering Satan's "Trial By Fire) fit that perfectly, as do Holocaust to an extent. Ever heard of the "Death Metal" EP featuring a few noted German power metal bands? That was released in the same way as a NWOBHM one (ie cheaply and independently to get attention), so as well as the music, the spirit went with it.

Now, having released this anger and proving how sad I am, I shall leave. Want to see a bigger, better list of NWOBHM bands, with occasionally patchy discographies? www.nwobhm.com, which also includes a fair few post-NWOBHM bands. That big chunk of text [No] thanks to: AdmiralvonAxehaufen.

I believe that Motorhead, Judas Priest, and Iron Maiden get called NWOBHM because they rose to popularity in the USA in the earky 1980s. AC/DC and Scorpions often get classified, and possibly Dokken occasionally, because they sound a lot some NWOBHM bands. And who classifies Def Leppard as HAIR METAL anyways. They are one of the true NWOBHM bands, just like Saxon, even though get classified as Hair Metal, which is stupid as they sound nothing like Warrant and Winger. And, also, couldn't Whitesnake be considered NWOBHM as they did come out of Britain in the late 70's, or were there some memebers from other countries?

I have reinstated the list of bands. Why it was deleted ? Racklever 07:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Whitesnake as NWOBHM? Can't see that myself, seeing as the earlier versions of the band were already established players (David Coverdale, Jon Lord, Mickey Moody, Bernie Marsden etc) who had been on the UK scene since the late 60s/early 70s... and their earlier stuff's more blues rock/hard rock than anything else... it's the right era and country, just the wrong style, and these guys were't exactly new to the music scene, I think Jon Lord was almost 40 when he joined the band! Def Leppard's earlier stuff is NWOBHM, but once you get to Hysteria... blatant hair/pop metal, compare it to High 'N' Dry and it just doesn't rock anywhere near as hard! - AdmiralvonAxehaufen

[edit] Scorpions

Scorpions can't really be considered NWOBHM but anybody who thinks that they weren't a big part of this simply wasn't there. I was. First saw Iron Maiden (aka The Plastic Cockneys ) supporting Scorpions in Sheffield. The style of Scorpions is far more NWOBHM than say Judas Priest - who although also big at the time were decidedly old school metal - in a similar crowd to UFO. Whitesnake - just a Deep Purple spin off, a la Rainbow - but again a big part of the metal scene at the time - not mutually exclusive

Def Leppard were considered Sheffield's finest - first saw them Manchester Free Trade supporting Sammy Hagar. This was definitely a NWOBHM gig - Hagar rescued from obscurity in Montrose by the DJ at the Bandwagon Soundhouse, and played likewise by DJs at northern clubs such as the Newcastle Mayfair, and the Dewsbury Turks Heads. But Hagar was neither British nor NWOBHM and Leppard seemed to bite the dust as far as metal fans were concerned when they did the picture disc with the spangly high heeled boot on the front. Sold out as they say

At the end of the day it doesn't matter - they were good times

81.178.209.180 (talk) 16:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Oi?

i think that oi! has alot less to do with heavy metal being influenced by punk than say D-beat, if we're gonna choose one subgenre of punk to highlight as the largest influence on the NWOBHM. SO, i deleted the note saying that the NWOBHM was related most closely to oi! in punk rock because thats completely unfounded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.112.215.229 (talk) 04:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Zodiac/Vardis

No one has produced a reputable source for these Vardis/Steve Zodiac claims after quite awhile, I think it's time we deleted this information as it's not reputable/verifiable and hence is likely original research/random claims. --predatorfreak 04:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing

I've made some changes to the article by rewriting the introduction, scrapping unreferenced material, adding a reference, and a reference section. Thoughts? --Broadbandmink 20:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Reference was OK but did not require the "introduction" section heading as it rm'd the lead. Articles require a lead-in. It has been restored. 142.167.93.132 20:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry 'bout that. I'm still quite green when it comes to standard procedures here on wikipedia. I'll try not to mess up too much. However, I've made some further changes to the genrebox and would very much like some opinions about them. --Broadbandmink 15:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Well, that was stupid..

The article gets locked.. why? Because I reverted 2 damn edits. And there's people who revert more than three, and they don't get warned, banned and the article doesn't get locked. If buddy would actually just explain his changes/how Motorhead are NWOBHM, then I would have stopped making my changes. Go ahead.. revert this without any explanation, too.

142.162.192.29 (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I protected the article because of a content dispute. The article needed protection because of the edit war and I took appropriate action. Feel free to work out the problems you are having here though, friend. ScarianCall me Pat 18:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I changed an major....... to a major......... 156 reverted it, I'm guessing that was an accident. Please fix, as we all know it's an. As for edit war, 156 wasn't explaining his changes in the edit summary. That's why I kept reverting. So, please explain how Motorhead are NWOBHM. They started in 75', released an album in '77 and had one in ready in '75. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.192.29 (talk) 18:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Iron Maiden, Def Leppard and Saxon all started prior to the NWOBHM era... but, like Motorhead they are still included in the list of NWOBHM bands. In All Music Guide's article about the era they include Motorhead along with the other bands mentioned (as well as Diamond Head) as NWOBHM bands. In All Music Guide's List of key albums from the NWOBHM era... Motorhead place 4 albums in their top 20 listing. And, just to note, in AMG's Top Songs of the NWOBHM era... Ace of Spades in Number 1. All Music Guide is a considered a reliable source... and the single opinion of an unemployed Newfoundlander is not a reliable source. 156.34.142.110 (talk) 19:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Also note: Chris Ingham's "Book of Metal", Deena Weinstein's "Heavy Metal;The Music and it's Culture", David Konow's "Rise and Fall of...", Garry Sharpe-Young's "Definitive Guide" and Robert Walser's "Runnin' With the Devil"... all books that have been cited on many Wikipedia heavy metal related articles... include Motorhead in their sections dealing with the era. And all are viewed as valid sources. 156.34.142.110 (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll stay with my own theory of them not being NWOBHM. But, "reliable sources" is all that matters here, so I'll let it stay. You could have just said that on the edit summary instead of continuously reverting until the article was locked. It can be unlocked, now.

142.162.206.206 (talk) 21:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and to clarify: Iron Maiden, Def Leppard and Saxon didn't start prior to the NWOBHM era. They all released their respective debuts in 79/80. But, this is probally irrelevant as we've agreed to leave Motorhead there.

142.162.206.206 (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

??? Iron Maiden formed in 1975 - same year as Mo_head. Saxon formed in 1976 and Def Leppard formed in 1977... all at least 2-4 years ahead of the NWOBHM era. All were releasing singles from the outset of their careers... to no success. Yes, Motorhead recorded an album in 1976... but the record complany rejected the album and it didn't get released until after their successful Overkill and Bomber albums began to spearhead, what would eventually be known as, the NWOBHM movement. Once they released the Ace of Spades album... Iron Maiden, Def Leppard and Saxon just rode their coattails into the North American market. 156.34.226.160 (talk) 22:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

They all released their first albums in 79/80. 142.162.206.206 (talk) 22:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Including Motorhead. Their first "unrejected" release was in 1979. Once it was successful their first recorded work was released following the release of the Bomber album. 156.34.226.160 (talk) 23:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You said Saxon, Iron Maiden and Def Leppard started prior to the NWOBHM era. They released their respective debuts in 79 and 80. So, how'd they start prior to that era? And I'm pretty sure Motorhead's first was in '77, it was rejected in '75, then released in '77. 142.162.206.206 (talk) 02:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Saxon and Iron Maiden started in '75 and '76, though. It doesn't matter when they released their debuts. I do agree that they are NWoBHM for sure, though. Iron Maiden is the NWoBHM, lol. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 21:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It's late 70's-early 80's. If it doesnt matter when they debuted, then Saxon and Iron Maiden arent NWOBHM. :S

142.162.194.79 (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm too confused. NWOBHM = British metal bands that PEAKED in the late seventies-early eighties. Is this how Motorhead is one? Does the make Judas Priest one?

Not peak. Just initial success/acclaim beyond England. Judas Priest aren't NWOBHM. They found their initial success and were an international touring act around the same time as Wishbone Ash and Thin Lizzy. Many NWOBHM bands got their first chance at touring in North America as an opening act for Judas Priest. 156.34.231.56 (talk) 19:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

So, it's success in the late 70s-early 80s. Judas Priest were really popular in the late seventies-early eighties, so this makes them NWOBHM.

142.162.193.115 (talk) 19:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't success... its when each band beyond their region. For Motorhead, Iron Maiden, Def Leppard, Saxon and other bands associated with the NWOBHM movement this all snowballed for them starting in mid 1979 and continued through 1981. Many of the bands that found their 15 minutes during this era also folded shop before the era ended. Judas Priest released their first album in 1974... they were playing the Reading Festival by 1975 and by 1976 had a major label recording contract with global distribution and were an international touring act.(I saw them in 1977 on tour with REO Speedwagon!?!?) A full 3 years before the NWOBHM era they had several gold discs and were already well established recording/touring veterans even in the U.S. JP are not even close to being NWOBHM. 156.34.231.56 (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Motorhead didn't start in 1979.

142.162.193.115 (talk) 22:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

No they didn't. And neither did Iron Maiden or Saxon or Def Leppard who all atarted between 1975 and 1977. But no one beyond their home counties had heard of them until they all emerged at once. The NWOBHM era. Have a few more pints and ponder it a bit... you'll get it. No wait... you're in Corner Brook... you won't. 156.34.231.56 (talk) 22:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I meant they didn't release their first album in 1979. It was in 1975, if you don't count that as an official album, then their next was 77, which isn't 79.

142.162.193.115 (talk) 23:06, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

lol @ reverting all my edits to "initial" pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.193.115 (talk) 23:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Just so ya know, you screwed up when reverting my edits to "HW." You erased something I didn't do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.193.115 (talk) 23:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Motorhead is often mistaken as a NWOBHM band. They are, in fact, not. Thank you, thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.201.196 (talk) 20:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

On Wikipedia... for a single editor's incorrect POV vs many reliable sources... the reliable sources win and the single editor... in this case, you... loses because their personal POV is wrong. You must be getting used to that. 156.34.239.151 (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I know that reliable sources win. Even if I'm correct and they're wrong, like right now. Reliable sources will win even if what they're saying doesn't make sense..

142.162.163.112 (talk) 15:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC) This strikes me as a strange argument, in that a "reliable source" may be no such thing! As a NWoBHM fan at the time(1980-83 in my opinion) it seemed obvious which bands were "us" and which were "them". Rainbow Whitesnake AC/DC Motorhead Gillan etc were them, but Gillan UFO Priest and Motorhead were like cool uncles-they gave a damn. Saxon Maiden Leppard were NWoBHM but eventually transcended the genre marking the end of it (Pyromania/Worl Piece tour etc). Everyone seems to forget the close association with "new prog" ie Marillion Twelfth Night and iQ, and no-one remembers No Quarter (sob). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.115.171 (talk) 23:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Proper usage of the comma, paragraphing, and indenting would be nice. I still don't understand how Motorhead are NWOBHM. If it's bands that got popular in 78-82, but already started prior, then how is Judas Priest not one? Basically, what I'm saying is Motorhead and Judas Priest either both are, or they both aren't.

RandySavageFTW (talk) 19:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The reason Motorhead are an odd one is that during they grew in scale hanging with punk crowds and had punk fans. NWOBHM came along just when they started to get noticed by metal fans so they got sucked into it. Lemmy's argued Motorhead are punk, rhythm & blues and rock 'n' roll at various times (all basically the same thing in very different guises anyway). The band never asked for metal crowds, metal crowds came to them. Personally I would say they were a British band who became big IN PARALLEL with the NWOBHM (just like, say, Guns N' Roses came from the same place as all the hair metal bands from the mid 80s and are in many ways linked to that sound due to coming from LA and having similar influences but are also, definitely, NOT hair metal and grew in their own way despite fighting for the same audience at times).

If you are to say that they got big in parallel with the movement, the question is then: What makes bands NWOBHM? Being a metal band that followed a similar career path to a NWOBHM band? Motorhead did in a lot of ways, though they just about survived when most others did not. Or is it having the same kind of sound as NWOBHM? With Motorhead being one of the biggest metal bands of 79, I would imagine lots of bands were influenced BY them, hence the connection.

Motorhead lack most NWOBHM influences, spent time with different crowds (at first), and played speed metal (which is not the same as NWOBHM, they're just both faster/more intense than 'regular' metal). Their career co-incided with NWOBHM though, and there are a lot of NWOBHM bands that probably aped them in some form at the time (I wouldn't know).

Not saying they are or are not NWOBHM since it depends on your definition of the term. But thrown some useful lines in I think. (The Elfoid (talk) 01:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Request To Make a Savage article

The NWOBHM band Savage was a very important band that came out during the movement and they had a very big influence on Metallica and other early thrash bands. Just look at some of Metallica's demo pages and look for the track "Let It Loose" which is from them. We should also add them to the list of NWOBHM bands once the article is created.Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.12.165 (talk) 19:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mainstream popularity?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_of_American_Heavy_Metal :

Mainstream popularity: Rise in worldwide popularity since mid 2000s

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_of_British_Heavy_Metal :

Mainstream popularity: Popular in Europe, gained popularity during the 1980s in the United States

Really? NWoBHM was a lot more popular in other countries (such as the in the Indian sub-continent) compared to NWoAHM.

Nareshov (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)