Talk:New Game Plus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Famicom style controller This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the assessment scale.
Low This article is on a subject of Low priority within gaming for inclusion in Wikipedia 1.0.
VG To-do:
This article is part of WikiProject Square Enix, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Square Enix-related merchandise and video games on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the assessment scale.
Low This article is on a subject of Low priority within Square Enix-related articles for inclusion in Wikipedia 1.0.

Contents

[edit] Clean-up

Good lord, someone please clean up this article. It's poorly formatted and spelled, and the begging at the end is unneccessary. 63.3.0.1 23:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking at it now, I agree this article needs a cleanup, although I'm more concerned with the long list of games at the end. I'm going to remove most of them, keeping only the iconic NG+ games, which will generally only be classic SNES and NES games. If every last NG+ game is allowed to be listed, the list would grow to a ridiculous length. Here's the list as it stands prior to my cropping. Ong elvin 10:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

==List of games with a New Game Plus mode== ===[[NES]]=== *[[The Legend of Zelda]] *[[Zelda II: The Adventure of Link]] *[[Super Mario Bros. 3]] ===[[Game Boy Advance]]=== *[[Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow]] *[[Golden Sun: The Lost Age]] *[[Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban]] *[[Mega Man Battle Network 4]] *[[Mega Man Zero series]] *[[Shining Soul]] and [[Shining Soul II]] *[[Sigma Star Saga]] *[[Super Robot Taisen: Original Generation]] and its [[Super Robot Taisen: Original Generation 2|sequel]]. ===[[SNES]]=== * [[Bahamut Lagoon]] * [[Chrono Trigger]] * [[Lufia II]] ===[[Playstation]]=== * [[Chrono Cross]] * [[Chrono Trigger]] * [[Front Mission 3]] * [[Jumping Flash]] * [[Legend of Mana]] * [[Parasite Eve]] * [[Parasite Eve 2]] * [[SaGa Frontier 2]] * [[Silent Hill]] * [[Tales of Eternia]] * [[Vagrant Story]] ===[[Playstation 2]]=== * [[Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits]] * [[Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter]] * [[Disgaea: Hour of Darkness]] * [[Disgaea 2: Cursed Memories]] * [[Final Fantasy X-2]] * [[Final Fantasy XII|Final Fantasy XII International Zodiac Job System]] * [[Front Mission 4]] * [[God of War (video game)|God of War]] * [[God of War II]] * [[Jak II]] * [[Jak 3]] * [[Jak X: Combat Racing]] * [[Mega Man X7]] * [[Mega Man X8]] * [[Ōkami]] * [[Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams]] * [[Radiata Stories]] * [[Ratchet & Clank]] * [[Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando]] * [[Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal]] * [[Ratchet: Deadlocked]] * [[Rogue Galaxy]] * [[Shadow Hearts]] * [[Shadow Hearts: Covenant]] * [[Shadow Hearts: From the New World]] * [[Shadow of the Colossus]] * [[Shining Tears]] * [[Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army|Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. the Soulless Army]] * [[Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga]] * [[Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga 2]] * [[Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne]] * [[Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3]] * [[Silent Hill 2]] * [[Silent Hill 3]] * [[Silent Hill 4: The Room]] * [[Suikoden IV]] * [[Suikoden V]] * [[Suikoden Tactics]] * [[Tales of Legendia]] * [[Tales of the Abyss]] * [[Wild Arms Alter Code: F]] * [[Wild Arms 3]] * [[Wild Arms 4]] * [[Wild Arms 5]] ===[[Gamecube]]=== * [[Baten Kaitos Origins]] * [[The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker]] * [[Tales of Symphonia]] ===[[Nintendo DS]]=== *[[Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow]] *[[Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin]] *[[Front Mission]] *[[Hotel Dusk: Room 215]] *[[Lunar Knights]] *[[LostMagic]] ===Multi-Platform=== * [[Marvel: Ultimate Alliance]] * [[Resident Evil 4]] * [[X-Men Legends II: Rise of Apocalypse]] * [[Justice League Heroes]] ===Xbox 360=== * [[Blue Dragon]]<ref>{{Cite web | url=http://majornelson.com/archive/2007/09/28/marketplace-roundup-for-september-28-2007.aspx | author=Major Nelson | date=[[2007-09-28]] | publisher=majornelson.com | title=Marketplace Roundup for September 28, 2007 | accessdate=2007-09-30}}</ref> * [[Eternal Sonata]] ===[[Wii]]=== * [[Metroid Prime 3: Corruption]] * [[Resident Evil 4]] Wii Edition

Actually, looking through the article as a whole, I think it would be better to remove that section altogether, and use iconic NG+ games in the Examples section. So that means replacing some of the games used with earlier examples. Ong elvin —Preceding comment was added at 10:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've done the changes... I'd like to replace most of the games with 16-bit or 8-bit examples if possible, and I know most of them can be replaced with such equivalents... but I forget the games. :/ Ong elvin 01:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon Quarter

somebody should write something about Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter's SOL system.

[edit] Role Playing Games

The article claims this is mainly an RPG convention, but I don't think that's the case. It is also present in action-adventure games, such as several Zelda titles. In fact, I think this is where the phenomenon started. It is also used very frequently in survival horror, such all games in the Resident Evil and Silent Hill series and Eternal Darkness, platformers like the Ratchet and Clank series, etc. Ace of Sevens 15:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The earliest example I can think of is in the 1985 platform game Super Mario Bros.; when the player defeated Bowser in the final level, the Princess would "present you with a new quest" - namely, one would be able to play through the game again, only with more difficult enemies and other minor gameplay changes. A more recent example is The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker; after completing the game, the player would be able to start a new file which, whilst not altering the gameplay, allows the player to use the Deluxe Picto Box item from the outset, and gives the main character a different change of clothes. Ppk01 12:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R&C

What about R&C? This is also a New Game + game.--Homei 17:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ratchet & Clank

I remember that I could start a new game in Ratchet & Clank with the weapons I acquired in the last game. Could that be considered New Game+? --Mika1h 15:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

If you have items before they would otherwise be available, I think it does. 82.152.36.189 15:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Final Fantasy X-2

I used to own FFX-2 and the BradyGames strategy guide. In the guide there was a section that gave you a step-by-step run-through on the exact actions you could take to get 100% on the very first playthrough. So either the BradyGames guide was incorrect (which has happened on certain things from time to time), OR, the editor on the article made a rather innocent but incorrect assumption. Any other notes would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jahudgins1983 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

items don't count towards that total. the game only keeps track of how much of the story you've completed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.30.110.37 (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Devil May Cry

Devil May Cry should be added to the list of PlayStation 2 games featuring a "New Game +" mode: You can start a new game with all abilities acquired in previous game.
However, I don't know about Devil May Cry 2 and Devil May Cry 3, I don't played them yet.
Od1n 12:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resistance Fall of Man

What about Resistance? There are no ps3 games listed so far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.49.41 (talk) 05:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

This article is basically a definition of a gameplay feature, it will never reach Featured Article or even Good Article status. Moreover, a lot of the examples of games mentioned are original research and superficial similarities; I'm pretty sure only Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross and Final Fantasy X-2 have a feature explicitely named "New Game+". Consequently, it would be best to purge this article from its original research and merge what remains into the most relevant parent article, Chrono (series). Kariteh (talk) 13:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I would have to disagree with you, yes the article is a fary cry from GA status, but as the above list shows this feature far from unique to the Chrono series and so I feel merging it into that series' article would make little sense. The name of this feature may be differ from game to game but it serves more or less the same purpose and this article needs a universal name so "New Game Plus" does nicely. Just my two cents.

S. Luke 17:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

No, you can't assimile everything that looks like New Game Plus to the actual New Game Plus: that's Wikipedia:Original research and it's not allowed unless you cite a source to back up the statements. This current article is basically an essay, it's not factual. Kariteh (talk) 18:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The Chrono Trigger did not create the NG+ concept. It existed long before then - The Legend of Zelda. Chrono Trigger only coined the term. Also, Wikipedia acknowledges that some articles will simply never be in a position to reach FA status due to their nature, even if they are notable enough to merit a separate article. (I know I saw this somewhere, but I can't remember where. If someone else knows about it, please insert link.) Ong elvin (talk) 05:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but this article is titled "New Game Plus" and is supposed to be about the feature called "New Game Plus". Comparing this feature and other concepts is original research if no reliable source that compares them is cited. In its current state, this article shouldn't be a separate article, because it's not properly cited and does not establish notability. Besides, there's a difference between articles that can't reach FA due to their nature (for instance, articles about rare species of dinosaurs that even scientists don't know much about), and articles that can't reach FA due to them being essays based on original research. Kariteh (talk) 11:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, the only reliable source use of New Game plus occurs in the Chrono Trigger game series, and we have to work with reliable sources. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I remember somewhere in a sqare-enix interview about Crisis Core they mentioned that when you finish the game you get a newgame+. On a nother note isn't newgame+ just a phrase people use to describe when you start a newgame with alot of the stuff you had? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.139.192.253 (talk) 23:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If New Game Plus is used in Crisis Core then it can be mentioned in the Chrono series article (and in the Crisis Core article of course). It's just one sentence. As for your question, it's precisely what Wikipedia calls original research. Kariteh (talk) 07:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

My stance on this is that either NG+ is a separate short article, or doesn't get a mention anywhere. Realistically, there are no "sources" because while NG+ is used a lot, and has been used before Chrono Trigger came along, it's rarely formally called NG+. Ong elvin (talk) 10:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I share your reasoning but not your conclusion. I think NG+ should either be mentioned in the Chrono series article or not have a separate article at all. It would definitely be at home in Chrono (series) (with FFX-2 and Crisis Core mentioned briefly), since it's a main, almost-defining feature of the games of the series. See also Kingdom Hearts (series) for how common features of a series can be implemented in a series article. Kariteh (talk) 10:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The problem with your example is that those are features specific to Kingdom Hearts. NG+ is not unique to any series. I keep saying that Chrono Trigger didn't invent the NG+ concept, although saying that it gave it the name is certainly a fair argument. If it's mentioned as part of another article, then the only articles that I think can lay a reasonable claim are Chrono Trigger for naming it, Chrono (series) because Trigger is part of it, and The Legend of Zelda because it's the earliest game I can think of to have a NG+ feature. I use the Zelda article because it's the earliest example of NG+ in a well known game that I know of. Implementations in each of the articles would be something like this:
Chrono Trigger - although NG+ had been used in games long before Chrono Trigger, such as Zelda, this game was the first to call it NG+.
Chrono (series) - Chrono games use the NG+ feature as a part of their design, although this feature had also been used before in other titles such as Zelda.
The Legend of Zelda - Zelda was perhaps the earliest game to use NG+, although it would not be named that until Chrono Trigger came along.
So, that I think would be the best way to do it, if y'all are really adamant about this. Ong elvin (talk) 02:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a source for Zelda? I don't consider that a new game +, as nothing from the first quest affects the second. If that's a NG+, then so is Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels. On a side note, did Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals have a NG+? I seem to remember something like it with increased experience rewards, and I think they even used the "+" designation for it. Pagrashtak 04:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge - the article is about a generic feature of certain video games. It is not solely about Chrono Trigger's New Game+ mode. There may be merit in merging it with something else, there may be merit in deleting it but there is no merit whatsoever in merging it with Chrono Trigger. Additionally, if my memory of Wikipedia policy is correct, the fact that an article will never make Good or Featured article status doesn't mean it should be merged or deleted, it's just a sad fact that there aren't enough sources on certain topics to bring them up to those quality standards. EvilRedEye (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion - What if we made this article "Playthrough" (to describe completing a game, start to finish) and then to expand it to include other features that some games offer through multiple playthroughs, including, but not limited, to "New Game Plus". This makes this more generic, but a core gaming term that we should talk about, and avoids some of the issues listed above. --MASEM 15:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not a bad idea... I was going to say it 'Playthrough' sounds like a bit of a nothing topic, a bit like eating or something, but then I discovered eating has its own article so... If you did an article for playthrough I suppose you could include stuff about how people tend not to finish most games, I've been several articles about that over the years. EvilRedEye (talk) 15:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's a great idea. It would definitely allow for a broader scope and would eliminate the OR-ish aspect of the current article. Kariteh (talk) 15:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge to an article about common RPG elements. New Game Plus is also a feature in Disgaea and Disgaea 2, possibly other NiS games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

NG+ is not unique to RPGs. There are action games that use it, such as the MMZ games. And then some of the examples listed in the Clean-up section higher up on this page. Gradius, Contra, SMB3, Smash TV, Kid Icarus all used NG+ in their own ways as well. Ong elvin (talk) 06:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Since everyone agrees on the renaming, which name shall we choose for the new article? Astro Boy: Omega Factor isn't an RPG, so perhaps Playthrough (currently a redirect) is the most appropriate name? The article could even include information about the games that unlock an additional difficulty level after a first playthrough (for instance F-Zero, and I think Contra, etc.). Kariteh (talk) 07:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Being used at several different articles doesn't make it deserving of an article, especially just because it doesn't have a proper merge target. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so after some discussion, I think this is the consensus regarding NG+ as a topic:

  • NG+ is notable in that it is used in many games; however, it is impossible for it to satisfy the guidelines set out in WP:N for 3rd-party sources.
  • NG+ should be mentioned specifically in an article somewhere. Chrono Trigger possibly for giving it the term we know it as, but the actual concept should be in an article about video gaming concepts.
  • Playthrough looks like a viable candidate for moving this article, although it seems that we also think it's not the best article name possible.

I think it'd be a good idea to take this to WP:CVG/GL and ask for help on this issue. Any objections? Ong elvin (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You can go ahead I guess. Kariteh (talk) 08:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No mention of Super Mario Bros.?

One of the original games to do this was Super Mario Brothers. All the Gombas became Buzzy Beetles after you win the game and it starts from the beginning. This is really one of the most historic examples and it's not even mentioned. 65.102.40.110 (talk) 23:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Can you cite a reliable source that says that Super Mario Bros. used something called or similar to New Game Plus? Kariteh (talk) 08:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)