Talk:New Age music/Archive 1

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New Age music survived vfd. Per discussion it is now on the cleanup list. See: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/New_Age_music -- Wile E. Heresiarch 21:05, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

moved from User talk:Lexor --Lexor|Talk 16:22, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] New_Age_Music

I see you did some work on New Age Music. This article contains most of the Music sub-section from New_Age, word for word, then a nice little table with other links. Do you think this is right to copy and paste a section from a longstanding article just to make a new one? BF 00:17, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

I did not create New Age music, I merely copyedited (check the history) and haven't looked at the parent New Age article itself. However, it is a good practice to include a two or so paragraph summary of an article in the parent article with a Main article: link to the daughter article which is a longer extension of that summary, which will often include the initial summary from the parent article, e.g. Simulation and Computer simulation. In general that's warranted when it is likely that the daughter article will be expanded with additional information beyond what would be wanted in the parent article, which would probably be the case with New Age music. --Lexor|Talk 03:28, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

You know this article was written without any effort at all. Write a few sentences, grab most of the theme and content from New Age, and add a cute little table at the bottom which doesn't give the reader much to research. Lazy? Yeah! BF 22:32, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"At its beginings, new age music was closely related to the New Age movement of beliefs." I'd like to see some documentation for this. In fact this article is of very poor quality. It suffers from the same problem as the easy listening article: the people who listen to this style of music very rarely describe it as such - and if they do, they usually refer to a much more specific style (e.g meditation CDs), rather than the styles labeled as such by detractors (e.g Enya). People who listen to Enya will only rarely work on the new age article when explaining their kind of music, because they don't listen to new age music. Other people do that. What are we going to do about this? right now this article is not far from being useless.Vintermann 13:24, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested definition

New Age Music is really popular in my country, and by New Age Music people basically understand all those meditation/relaxation CDs that are around. Particularily the label Innovative Communications (1) had its share of artists that were considered notable: Software, Anugama, G.E.N.E., Karunesh. Also artists such as Suzanne Ciani, Kitaro, Cusco, Space, Gandalf (yes, "Software", "Space" and "Gandalf" are actual band names) - those have at least surfaced here or there, in the press, on illegal MP3 compilations - compared to numerous other musicians ("John St. John" for instance..) who are virtually unknown.

All of the bands/musicians I've mentioned make slow, ambient electronic music, which centers on (that is, with album/track names, or album covers, photography, liner notes..) themes like meditation (Anugama, Software), exotic places (G.E.N.E.), dreams, etc. (Especially meditation (and concepts like tantra, mantra, chakra - things from eastern philosophies) is a recurring theme, and I guess this is why a lot of people think that "New Age Music is connected to the New Age movement of beliefs"). And this, well, seems to be the definition of New Age Music.

As for artists like Tangerine Dream, Enya, Vangelis, Klaus Schulze,.. - well, firstly, their music is very different from what I've described, even though they all have some pieces that sound like generic electronic soundscapes (sic!). Seconldy, several of them (Tangerine Dream) have repeatedly stated they hate the term "New Age Music" and do not consider their music that. Thirdly, they have armies of devoted fans who protest against all kinds of labels connected with "New Age".

Tangerine Dream are 100% New Age Music. All ex-members have also released New Age music including Christopher Franke's Enchanting Nature, Steve J's New Age Emotions.
Edgar Froese hates many things. His hatred of the term New Age is his attempt to rewrite history. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dunk meister (talk • contribs) .

So I mean, would it be an acceptable solution to define New Age music by describing it like I did above, or like it is briefly described in the article (The large percentage of music described as New Age music is instrumental, and electronic), and to list several artists from Innovative Communications and similar labels (if someone can actually find those - I don't own any meditation CDs, but I believe at least some of them would have information on record labels) as 'new age musicians'. Other artists (Enya, Vangelis..) could be placed on the same page with a notice saying that they're not widely considered "New Age", and that their music can sometimes be very different from the kind of music described in the article.

I'm not sure if it is NPOV to connect meditation/relaxation CDs and New Age Music, but (a) 'new age/new instrumental' is what at least some of those CDs are labeled and (b) there's no specific term for the kind of music on meditation CDs, which is calm, repetitive and electronic - yet the variying definitions of New Age Music agree that it is calm and electronic.

I don't want to make any edits to the article at the moment, since I have no idea if the definition I offer is going to be accepted. So, could anyone offer opinions on what I'm suggesting? :) -- Jashiin 19:47, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wouldn't NPOV be documenting the use of the term instead of trying to find The New Age Music and trying to categorize that somehow? For that, I think much of what appears on talk here makes sense. I came to look up the word, because it never made any sense to me. I'm walking away with the controversial pointless fake category -definition.

Vangelis, Enya, Enigma, Tangerine Dream, Jean Michel Jarre, Michael Garrison, Kitaro, Klaus Schulze, Yanni and similar artists are all consider to be artists/musicians who create New Age Music. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dunk meister (talk • contribs) .

I definitely agree with explaining the different views held of the term "New Age Music". For example, Groove Unltd. plus much of their customer base strongly disagrees that they'd center on NA. Given that Enya disagrees with the term too, there might be some sort of wider backlash from within various communities against the "secular" usage of the term. I have heard it claimed that the term is used in Europe more specifically than in America, that is, according to the definition in the 2nd paragraph of the original post.
That said, where did that comment about TD being 100% NA suddendly come from? It looks somewhat detached there. OK, yes I am a devoted fan, but not really particularily Anti-New-Age (quite the contrary in fact; I think most of their output could apply.) Still, TD have at least 15-20 albums which have nothing particularily New Ageish on them and dozens more with only nods. IMO this includes just about everything up to 1982 or so - their formative years and initial rise to fame. I've seen this "100%" claim made before numerous times, and I'm wondering whether the people saying this have a definition of "New Age" radically different from mine, or are just ignorant of the enormous scope of variation during TD's career. Even albums from the same year, such as "The Park Is Mine" and "Legend", can be lightyears apart.
Also, I've gotten the impression that EF isn't really attempting to rewrite history, but he rather understands "New Age Music" as music necessarily connected with the religious movement - I quote from the sleeve notes of "The 7 Letters From Tibet": "This recording is not supporting any kind of political party or idea. It is also not the composers' intention to support or criticise any kind of dialectical spiritual movement." Tropylium 18:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Two of the comments, including the one about TD being 100% NA, were added by Dunk meister. He didn't sign his posts so it looked like I said those things. I've edited the page accordingly. Jashiin 22:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

New Age music is not a narrow genre. Just as techno, world music, and other genres contain many different styles of music. Some of the earliest music known as New Age Music was by synthesizer artists such as Tangerine Dream, Jean Michel Jarre and Vangelis. These artists are known worldwide as New Age Music artists. Some of those artists have released albums that some could call "borderline New Age". But as artists within a genre expand or change their sound it also usually affects the genre their in. It caused the genres to expand. It's the same way with most every other genre. Rock, Country, Techno, etc have expanded.

Most New Age Music has nothing do to with the New Age Movement. New Age Music is a collection of many styles of music that many times shares the same fan base. There will be some artists who don't like the genre name their music falls under. Many artists don't like any type of labelling of their music/art.

I know of dozens of "IDM" artists who don't care for that label for their music. But I see them (the artists and their music) listed as IDM all the time. Most "Intelligent Dance Music" isn't for dancing or very "intelligent". IDM is just a term used to describe a collection of styles (genre) of music. I ask if all IDM that isn't for dancing, isn't "intelligent" be not known as "IDM" for now on? Should an artist's music not be "IDM" anymore if they artist doesn't like the term "IDM"? I think not.

Should all "goth" music that has nothing to do with the ancient Germanic Goth tribe not be called Gothic music anymore? What is "industrial" music? Is it music related to "industry" in some way? We are talking about genres or a genre of *music*.

Those who are familar with other styles and genres of music most likely known that an artists and bands usually have little imput in what their music is called or what genre of music it falls into. Their input is the music they make. Throughout music history it's been radio DJs, record labels, fans, magazines, compilations and help put a genre tag on an artist, band or styles of music.

The definition for New Age Music and it's artists should reflect the worldwide view as it being a large genre made up several styles of music. Many of these styles and some of the earliest are synthesizer or electronic-based. Some also refer to as New Age Music as "Music for a New Age" much of which was visionary. by Dunk meister on Jan 20, 2006

[edit] Mike Oldfield

Doesn't classifying Tubular Bells as the first New Age album contradict the definition given in the first place that the beginnings of New Age music were closeley related to the mystical matters of the New Age movement? Oldfield originated from the jazz-related and somewhat humoristic Canterbury Scene. 84.174.254.240 10:59, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Formatted

I have drastically changed the article and "wikified" it with guidelines of Wikipedia style. I have also removed personal opinions and irrelevant information that does not belong in this article. There could be alot more change to this article because it seems loosely organized and misleading. I suppose somebody will come later to edit the article information better and cite references. Remember that Wikipedia is not a message board to spout your beliefs. Save that for the article's talk pages or refrain completely. I hope though the article will improve. --Eeee 03:23, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


I've done some stylistic editing re the Froese qote, but more could be done here. Also, when was this said and in what context? Is the comment on it really necessary? Metamagician3000 09:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lead-in

This article was deperately in need of a lead-in, and I started a somewhat rough one. I blantantly ripped the statement The borders of this genre are not well defined, and the dividing lines between its sub-genres are often fluid from the Science fiction article. As usual, edit mercilessly. --192.112.210.155 15:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC) Darn it, got logged out again. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New version of the article, feedback requested

In an attempt to improve the article, I did a little draft and placed it here: Talk:New Age music/Draft (didn't want to make the actual edit, since apparently the issue about what New Age music is is controversial). There's a general description of the style, a section about different points of view and several lists of artists. I did not include the list of labels because I just don't know much about these labels and I've got no idea whether they're really New Age labels (don't have time or resources to check now). Feedback is greatly appreciated! I hope that enough people are interested now and that we will be able to create a verison of the article that is to everyone's liking. Jashiin 14:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

  • At first glance: excellent work. Defining this subject is like trying to herd cats, but you did a really good job. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
    • indeed. Great job. Maybe some more ideas of the current article can't be integrated (although i can't really say how, at the moment). Another resource might be : allmusic.com to get some idea (although the new age styles section don't all really fit that well in the new age genre, but might be related rock/world music/traditional/... styles. And of course Ishkur's Guide always gives an sataric but informative idea of the genre ;-) --LimoWreck 16:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

"Initially, the main outlets of music were New Age bookshops and music stores, thus the term New Age music became applied."

I have a problem with the above quote. It implies that New Age was applied to music because of (mainly) of bookstores and music stores. Those outlets had some imput but so did radio programs, reviews, printed media, fans, record labels and what have you. Just as most every other genre was shaped and form from various areas so was "New Age Music" User:Dunk Meister 19:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

If there are no other comments in the next day or so, I suggest you post your draft. I had posted a note about this on the Tangerine Dream page on the 1st, so I think there has been a bit of visibility. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Allright, I guess I'll do it on Monday. I've got a feeling that someone will complain though :) Jashiin 16:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
If there were no complaints, this wouldn't be Wikipedia :-). Seriously though, your draft has been advertised on two talk pages for one business week- that's certainly enough time for any major objections. We both know it's going to be edited mercilessly once it's posted: and that's a good thing. --Gadget850 ( Ed)


[edit] NOT JUST A STYLE, OR SUB GENRE!

  • New Age Music is not just a subgenre of Electronic or Ambient music. New Age Music INCLUDES many different styles and influences from Western, Eastern Classical music to Avant-Garde, Jazz, Minimalism, Indigenous, Sacred, Symphonic, Electronic and Solo Acoustic Music. You can't say it is mostly Electronic because a large part of New Age Music includes Solo Piano, Harp, Flutes, Sitar, Drums etc. I would say any instrument and/or almost any musical style you can imagine has been used to create New Age Music. It is not the style or the instrumentation, that makes it New Age! It is a certain feeling and experience that the music evokes in the listener that will give New Age Music it's qualification. That's why it is so confusing to talk about it. What is now called New Age Music is as old as music itself. There was always music to expand consciousness, sacred music, music for healing, relaxation and music for meditation and contemplation. Music created with a certain knowledge of music psychology, or created in an appropriate state of consciousness and with the intend to heal, enchant, spiritualize, or relax and uplift will have a different impact than music created for entertainment or mass-hypnosis. All theses components have to be taken into consideration when talking about New Age Music, labels and artists. I would suggest to make New Age Music a separate article/section. It is definitely not just a sub section of electronic music. There are many artists that also qualify to be included in Electronic Music, and there will be of course a sub genre called "electronic" in New Age Music. Electronic Music and New Age Music can share some of the information in this sub genre. But the same is true for Classical Music, Jazz, World Music, and Pop Instrumental as well as some Pop Vocals. Just to give a few examples, I would consider Donovan's ATLANTIS a New Age Song. Composers such as Ravel and Debussy have certainly written music that could be termed New Age and Paul Horn's "Classic" INSIDE THE TAJ MAHAL or INSIDE THE GREAT PYRAMID could also be listed under Jazz...

We need much more educated comments here. Onam 19:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing New Age and other genres

Perhaps there should be a secion on those genres that are closely related to New Age, and whitch often get miscategorized as new age. If you are going to say that Enya would not technically be classified as New Age, perhaps you should say that her music would technically be classified as Celtic. I have seen a great many celtic artists end up with new age music, despite the glaring differences. If you go to some record stores, you will find artists such as Lorenna McKennett classified in that section. I think that this tendency to classify everything that does no fit easially into any of the other genres as New Age is interesting enough to be commented on. --Zanthra 05:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You mean comments like "If it's over five minutes long and doesn't have any words we can understand then it must be New Age". --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there's enough material for a whole section on the subject; how about tweaking the description of the first point of view in the article so that it mentioned the comments of the kind Gadget850 mentioned? Or making a small paragraph about it in "Definitions". I can't think of many genres to cover, except Ambient and Celtic. Jashiin 18:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Genre-wise, "Berlin School" could also be considered, maybe also "World Music" and "Space Music" in general (I know many people who consider space music to definitely not be synonymous with NA)... But the fact is, there is dispute over whether these genres are completely independant of, overlapping with, or downright subgenres of New Age; that is, there seem to be vastly different conceptions of just what "New Age music" includes. (I still think someone ought to do a research on how exactly these opinions are distributed... not here of course, but it'd be definitely be interesting.)
Currently, the article does mention that "the borders of this genre are not well defined". This seems something of an understatement to me, and could probably be expanded. The "no clear border with ambient" is a good note; next step could be to say that there's also a wide continuum from NA to Celtic (or Krautrock, or trance, or whatever) but most fans consider there to be a definite cutoff point somewhere along the line, and that the opinions on its location can vary. Or does someone object? Tropylium 09:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NEW AGE MUSIC MARKET SHARE

There are thousands of New Age titles and probably over 100 subgenres. New Age is much bigger than most people might imagine. Since sales for the New Age genre are only captured statistically in record retail the numbers put out by the RIAA are only roughly accounting for half of the sales. New Age Music has in reality about 10% of the music market! Onam 19:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy and order of definitions

Definition 3 claims to be "not accurate" while 2 & 1 only "can be questioned" / "is problematic". How so? This could be read to imply that 3 is an "incorrect" definition, which seems like a POV to me. I don't think I can agree with the interpretation "this definition is more vague than the others" either. Can I get some comments on what was meant here?

Also, does anyone think it would it be useful to list the definitions in order of inclusivity / breadth instead, that is 1 > 3 > 2 or 2 < 3 < 1? It would add some NPOV to the order of them. I can imagine people protesting that the order of the list suggests eg. that the first definition(s) would be the most (more) common one(s). Tropylium 09:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music Genres related articles

Before reverting my next contributions to this article, please read

1) Browsing Music Spaces - Categories And The Musical Mind.

2) A Theory of Musical Genres - Two Applications (1980).

Thank you.Brian Wilson 18:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Instrumental music

A former version of this article shows some interesting sentences that could be put in this one.Brian Wilson 20:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)