Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/ archive8

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Neuro-linguistic programming/Working is now the working article, where I will make comprimises or fixes.

However, a few of the criticism sources are a bit questionable, at least the cult ones(7 habits of highly effective people is even criticism there!). On the other hand removing all references to cult behavoir, most of the science section, and the image would seem to be crossing into censorship. Lets agknowledge NLP's faults, and off course, if attributes that are supported scientifically can be found, then add them to the science section. The engram section should be modified to no longer focus on just engrams, as they are rarely used.

And lets not edit war down there either please.Voice of AllT|@|ESP 18:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll. I checked the Loma ref again. Seven habits do not appear on that piece of literature. The NACHF paper focuses on empirically unvalidated (falsified) dubious therapies. So, the link to the webpage is not an accurate attribution, however the view that NLP is a dubious therapy in the same category as Dianetics is a credible source. 203.186.238.166 02:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)HeadleyDown 02:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh I almost forgot, Stephen Covey is often criticised for his claims to scientific support for his 7 habits (although automaticity research refutes this) and he is about as guilty as Deepak Chopra for mixing mysticism with his "remedies". [1]. Regards HeadleyDown 02:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I am unable to find an author named Loma. What is Loma's first name? And what university/organisation is this author attached to? --Comaze 04:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
We still have no evidence that an author named Loma exists. How does this fabricated author keep getting into the article? And by the way NCAHF/Loma ref is not a paper at all, it is a short article that is not published by any reputable publisher. The Loma ref is most likely written by Steven Barrett. --Comaze 03:05, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
This is fine with me. And of course like every method that claims to enact influence NLP and hypnosis are used in the context of cults. I admit i overdid my proposal a little bit because the premature assumption of the self-proclaimed 'proponents of science' about me being an NLP-Fan together with the sloppy methodical work irked me somewhat. Personally i regard most of the methods collected in NLP as unverified regarding their effectiveness in a therapeutic setting, and as far as the scientific background goes: B & G made it clear enough that they aren't very much interested in it. Blauregen 23:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Blauregen. Your excuses make it clear that the pseudoscience section is absolutely necessary for the article. It makes no difference whether BnG say they are priests, pragmatists, or anti-science gurus. The fact is, they make hypotheses and scientists test them. They propose theory to support their assertions, and those theories are odd mixtures of pseudoscientific and/or falsified theory and assumption built on assumption. They choose to create whole glossaries of obscurantism in order to sound scientific. And they make pseudoscientific excuses placing the burden of proof on science and on the consumer to prove the efficacy of their dubious rituals. They (and many other NLPers) also actively associate various other pseudosciences with their pet pseudoscience. (all according to the literature). HeadleyDown 02:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
No HeadleyDown. We don't need to provide an additional explanation what pseudoscience is. I am all for mentioning that

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