User talk:Netscott/Spanish ethnicity

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This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2007)

Contents 1 Languages of Spain 2 What's the point of this infobox? 3 Source citation for population figure replaced with {{fact}} 4 Portraits 5 Questioning supporting source 6 Questioning verifiability of info from cited supporting sources

[edit] Languages of Spain

In the section Languages of this ethnicity box, the link Spanish languages and dialects should direct to Languages of Spain and not to Names given to the Spanish language. I tried to change it, but couldn't (is it protected?). Can someone do it? Thanks! The Ogre 14:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's the point of this infobox?

This infobox just duplicates the version at Template:Infobox Ethnic group, why have a seperate version?--Nydas^(Talk) 21:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source citation for population figure replaced with {{fact}}

I have just removed the supporting cite for the population figure in the infobox. The reason for this is that the reversion cited a Wikipedia article as its supporting source (actually it cited this template — a circular cite).

Wikipidea Articles cannot be cited as supporting sources. This used to be clearer and more visible in the guidelines than it currently is, but it can be seen in the guidelines as they currently stand in WP:RS#Generally_unacceptable_sources.

Since this change leaves the population figure unsupported, I've added a ^{[citation needed]}. -- Boracay Bill 08:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I've moved the tag to the talk page. It destroys the format of the box. It is still a question and a problem, though. Thanks. The Ogre 12:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portraits

Remember that half of all Spaniards live outside of Castile/Andalucia, so at least half the portraits should show none Castilians/Andalucians. The current choice seems good. As there are plenty of potraits on other related people pages no more are needed (the Germans use only four). Six is quite enough Perhaps we should now stabilise it, as in the fashion of Catalan people page.Provocateur 03:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not about proportional representation but notability, I am afraid. At the moment, some of the characters chosen are indeed non-notable enough to be in an infobox. Nonetheless, this is really not the place to discuss these issues. I would say this should be taken up at the Spanish people talk page, in order to get a wider range of opinions. Regards, Asterion^talk 12:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questioning supporting source

My attention was caught by the recent changes to the assertions re Bolivia. The template asserts:

• Bolivia 1.3 mill (c. 4.4 mill²), pointing to note #2, which says: "Including mestizos and/or mulattos.". This assertion references

Bolivia: Ethnic groups as a supporting source. The referenced supporting source says:

• Population: 9,119,152 (July 2007 est.)

and

• Ethnic groups: Quechua 30%, mestizo (mixed white and Amerindian ancestry) 30%, Aymara 25%, white 15%

It's not clear to me where the 1.3mill and 4.4mill figures in the template came from, or how the cited supporting source supports them. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:16, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questioning verifiability of info from cited supporting sources

I've been wondering about the verifiability situation from the supporting sources cited in this template, so I went through the list with the following results:

• Spain 40 million (Spanish descent only), unsupported
•  Argentina 25 mill (>30 mill¹), citing Argentina: Ethnic groups
  Population: 40,301,927 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic Groups: white (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%, mestizo (mixed white and Amerindian ancestry), Amerindian, or other non-white groups 3%
  Unverified
• Brazil 15 mill (>20 mill⁴), citing Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores y de Cooperación.
  population: nearly one hundred eighty million
  Ethnicity: predominantly white (53.8%), constituting mulattos the second group (39.1%), followed by blacks (6.2%), yellow (0 , 5%) and a 1.1% indigenous people in one hundred and eighty different ethnic groups.
  Unverified
•  Mexico 10 mill (c. 75 mill¹) citing Mexico: Ethnic groups
  Population: 108,700,891 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic Groups: mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%
  Unverified
•  Colombia 8.4 mill (c. 42 mill²) citing Colombia: Ethnic groups
  Population: 44,379,598 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic Groups: mestizo 58%, white 20%, mulatto 14%, black 4%, mixed black-Amerindian 3%, Amerindian 1%
  Unverified
• Cuba 7 mill (c. 10 mill²), citing (Spanish) Poblacion Por Color de la Piel y Grupos de Edades, Segun Zona de Residencia y Sexo.
  Population: 11,177,743
  Color and Ethnicity: White 7,271,926, Black 1,126,894 , Mullatos or Mestizos 2,778,923
  Unverified
• Venezuela 5.6 mill (c. 22 mill²), citing "Venezuela", Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved on 2007-08-25. 
  Racial structure: Venezuela is a country of immigrants. About two-thirds of the population is mestizo (of mixed European and Indian ancestry) or mulatto-mestizo (African, European, and Indian); about one-fifth of Venezuelans are of European lineage, and one-tenth have mainly African ancestry. The native Indian population is statistically small.
  Unverified
•  Chile 5.5 mill (>15 mill¹), citing "5.2.6. Estructura racial", La Universidad de Chile. Retrieved on 2007-08-26. 
  Racial structure: The Chilean population has an ethnic structure formed by a 30% white or Caucasian, 5% of Aboriginal mongoloides and 65% of mestizos predominantly white. El aporte blanco proviene fundamentalmente de españoles (castellanos, andaluces y vascos, en su mayoría) y en grado bastante menor de las diversas inmigraciones ocurridas en Chile (italianos, alemanes, israelitas, yugoeslavos, árabes, etc). The contribution comes mainly from white Spanish (Castilian, Andalusians and Basques, mostly) and considerably lower degree of the various immigration occurred in Chile (Italians, Germans, Israelis, yugoeslavos, Arabs, etc.). In fact, foreigners have always been scarce in Chile, reaching only 600 throughout the colonial era, in the census of 1960 were 105,000 (55% of whom were Spaniards, Germans, Italians or Argentine, in this order). [...]
  Unverified
• Peru 4.2 mill (c. 14 mill²), citing Peru: Ethnic groups
  Population: 28,674,757 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: Amerindian 45%, mestizo (mixed Amerindian and white) 37%, white 15%, black, Japanese, Chinese, and other 3%
  Unverified
• Costa Rica 3.2 mill (c. 4 mill²), citing The Costa Rican people (dead link, used internet archive)
  The Costa Rican people, �Ticos,� are culturally diverse with more than 80% of the population being of European descent. [...]
  Unverified
•  Dominican Republic 3.2 mill (c. 9.1 mill²), citing Puerto Rico: Ethnic groups
  probably meant to cite Dominican republic: Ethnic groups
  Population: 9,365,818 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: mixed 73%, white 16%, black 11%
  Unverified
• USA 2,487,092 (>35 mill³), citing Ancestry 2000: Census 2000 brief (pdf) 5. U.S. Census Bureau. Retrieved on 2007-07-17.
  Population (2000): 281,421,906
  Ancestries With 100,000 or More People in 2000: Spaniard 299,948 Spanish: 2,187,144
  Verified 2,187,144 + 299,948 = 2,487,092
• Uruguay 1.8 mill (>3 mill¹), citing Uruguay: Ethnic groups
  population: 3,460,607 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: white 88%, mestizo 8%, black 4%, Amerindian (practically nonexistent)
  Unverified
•  France 1.5 mill, citing 3,7 millions de musulmans en France, Les vrais chiffres. L'Express (4 December 2003). Retrieved on 2007-07-17.
  [...] Spanish-1.5 million[...]
  Verified
• Puerto Rico 1.5 mill (c. 3 mill²), citing Dominican Republic: Ethnic groupsprobably meant to cite Dominican republic: Ethnic groups
  Population: 3,944,259 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic Groups: white (mostly Spanish origin) 80.5%, black 8%, Amerindian 0.4%, Asian 0.2%, mixed and other 10.9%<
  Unverified
• Bolivia 1.3 mill (c. 4.4 mill²), citing Bolivia: Ethnic groups
  Population: 9,119,152 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: Quechua 30%, mestizo (mixed white and Amerindian ancestry) 30%, Aymara 25%, white 15%
  Unverified
• Ecuador 0.9 mill (c. 9.5 mill²), citing Ecuador: Ethnic groups
  Population: 13,755,680 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: mestizo (mixed Amerindian and white) 65%, Amerindian 25%, Spanish and others 7%, black 3%
  Unverified
• Nicaragua 0.9 mill (c. 4.7 mill²), citing Nicaragua: Ethnic groups
  Population: 5,675,356 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: mestizo (mixed Amerindian and white) 69%, white 17%, black 9%, Amerindian 5%
  Unverified
•  El Salvador 0.6 mill (c. 6.7 mill²), citing El Salvador: Ethnic groups
  Population: 6,948,073 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: mestizo 90%, white 9%, Amerindian 1%
  Unverified
• Guatemala 0.5 mill (c. 7.3 mill²), citing Guatemala Introduction
  Population: 10 Million
  The ethnic composition consists of 45 percent Ladina (mestizo, which is Indian and European mixed), 45 percent Indian, 5 percent white, 2 percent black, with the remaining 3 percent to include a substantial Chinese population.
  Unverified
• Panama 0.3 mill (c. 2.5 mill²), citing Panama: Ethnic groups
  population: 3,242,173 (July 2007 est.)
  Ethnic groups: mestizo (mixed Amerindian and white) 70%, Amerindian and mixed (West Indian) 14%, white 10%, Amerindian 6%
  Unverified
• Paraguay 0.3 mill (c. 4.3 mill²), unsupported
• Honduras 0.2 mill (c. 6.7 mill²), unsupported
• Germany 130,000, citing Relations between Spain and Germany
  [...] Approximately 130,000 Spaniards live in Germany today and set an example for integration without loss of cultural identity. However, there has been a steady decline in their number during the last few years (there used to be more than 500,000). [...]
  Unverified
• United Kingdom 90,000-100,000, unsupported
• Switzerland 84,000, unsupported
• Australia 75,237 (c. 50,000¹), citing Ancestry by Birthplace of Parent(s). New South Wales Community Relations Commission. Retrieved on 2007-07-17.(dead link, used internet archive)
  Ancestry by birthplace of parents: Australia 5,313,097, Spanish 9,254 — Relevance?
  Unverified
• Canada 66,545 (213,105¹), citing Population by selected ethnic origins, by province and territory (2001 Census). Statistics Canada, Canada's National Statistics Agency. Retrieved on 2007-07-17.
  Population: Canada 29,639,035, Spanish-only: 66,545, Spanish+other: 213,105
  Verified
• Belgium 43,000, citing Belgium: Stock of foreign population by country of nationality, 2001 to 2004
  Spain 43,802
  Verified
• Philippines 17,000 (c. 3.5 milli⁵), Unsupported

Footnotes:

1. Including those of mixed Spanish and other European ancestry, mestizos and/or mulattos.
2. Including mestizos and/or mulattos.
3. Including other Hispanics of direct Spanish descent, and Spanish-descended mestizos and mulattos.
4. Including Brazilians of mixed Spanish and other European ancestry, and Spanish-descended mestizos and/or mulattos.
5. Including Filipino mestizos.

I was only able to verify 4 of the nearly 30 entries using the cited supporting sources. Am I missing something, or is the verifiability situation from the cited sources actually as bad as it looks to me? -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that any figures quoted need to be referenced. There is no question to the level of mestizaje in Latin America, indeed meaning that many of these people could claim Ethnic Spanish origins. Nonetheless, the issue is similar to Irish people. In the meantime, I suggest to quote census figures for any Spaniard living in these countries (and identified as such). Then giving a separate entry for so-called Spanish Ancestry, using most widely accepted estimates and providing supporting references. Regards, Asterion^talk 13:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)