Talk:Neoconservatism

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[edit] Some Stray comments from 2007 are in the 2006 archive

A few comments from 2007 were plopped in the midst of much earlier threads, and not indented as part of the thread. Most occurred on 10 November 2007 by anonymous editors. I put them in the 2006 archive, with indents. But on this page are still 2006 threads which had later comments coherently added. -Colfer2 (talk) 22:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Defining the Subjective

I think I figured out the problem with this article. It's trying to define "Neoconservative" as a small well-defined political movement. But the term is used much more expansively than that. When leftist, liberal, progressive (and sometimes classically conservative) pundits say "Neocon" they usually aren't talking about some small group of Jewish, former liberals. The term "Neoconservative" is used to differentiate between modern conservatives and classic conservatives in order to emphasize the differences. The people these critics describe do not usually consider themselves to be neoconservative, but identify as simply conservative in order to claim the heritage of classic conservative ideology. Naturally, the defining characteristics of Conservatism have changed over time (like Liberalism). But since the criticism of modern Conservatives comes mostly from the Left, the more liberal or progressive changes in Conservatism are less recognized when differentiating the "Neocons" from the "Cons". Therefore Neoconservatives are usually characterized as being more radically right than previous conservative movements. The liberal/progressive/leftists pundits describe classic Conservatives as being conservationist, pro-military but cautious of use of force, and for limited government. Whereas Neoconservatives are described as putting profit above the environment, being aggressively militaristic, and wanting to radically dismantle government infrastructure and protections. This article exclusively describes the term in a way that is now archaic to current political discourse. The more contemporary use of the term is subjective and contested. So it isn't surprising that there's so much disagreement here.Garbled Reverie (talk) 19:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Euston Manifesto

A link to the Euston Manifesto was readded to this page. Nowhere in the link is neoconservatism mentioned, the opening line of the page clearly refers to them as left-wing. Without greater justification, I will remove the link again. -William Quill (talk) 12:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Euston manifesto signatories support Iraq War. Euston manifesto was promoted by the Henry Jackson society. And see Oliver Kamm's book "A left-wing case for a neoconservative foriegn policy".99.244.181.114 (talk) 05:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't make them neo-conservative, I suppose the best definition of them would be Liberal Hawks, which I'll add as a link instead. William Quill (talk) 10:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
What's the difference between liberal hawks and neoconservative anyway?99.244.181.114 (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

To return to this. I think it's a POV to include the Euston Manifesto. I've asked at the Euston Manifesto talk page, and for those interested, it might be worth looking at their website, [1]. They are very much left-leaning or liberal, in the New Labour tradition. New Labour was a departure from what Labour was once, but they didn't become neocon. There might be a left-wing case for a neocon foreign policy, but that simply means that Kamm thinks that left-wingers should support their foreign policy, not that they now are neocons. Take the first paragraph of this article, mentioning "he rejection of the social liberalism, moral relativism, and New Left counterculture of the 1960s". This description does not fit the Euston Manifesto. The bigger point, I think, is that neoconservatism is very much an American movement, associated with the GOP, and so does not fit a British group of this sort. William Quill (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Explain this paragraph?

"Some observers believe furthermore that there is a fundamental continuity of ideas from Trotsky to the present neoconservative movement. They point in particular to the French Turn, by which Trotsky advocated the belief in social democracy as a Leninist vanguard. This was indeed essentially the position for which Shachtman broke with Trotsky, and that position has remained throughout the essence of neoconservatism. Indeed, this view has only been embraced by neocon thinkers such as Paul Berman, Christopher Hitchens, and Stephen Schwartz."

Let's make a note of the fact that Shachtman's split had nothing to do with the French Turn, which likewise had nothing to do with viewing social democrats as a Leninist vanguard. Shachtman split from Trotsky because Trotsky insisted on manintaining that the Soviet Union was what he called "a bureaucratically degenerated workers state." Shachtman chose to characterize the USSR was "bureaucratic collectivism" but rejected the Marxist view which asserts that a social class such as either the bourgeoisie or the proletariat must be the owning class. Trotsky used this Marxist perspective to argue that the Soviet Union, which was clearly not owned by a capitalist class, was a workers state, albeit a bureaucratically degenerated one. Shachtman rejected this perspective. The argument was not over the French Turn at all. It was an argument about how to view the Soviet Union as a social phenomenon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.137.241 (talk) 15:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean that Paul Berman, Christopher Hitchens, and Stephen Schwartz point to the "French Turn?" The meaning of this paragraphis unclear. What position did Shachtman take? Really muddy.--Cberlet 21:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know exactly what that means. Although there is a wikipedia article for French Turn and another for Max Shachtman. The Shachtman article mentions his influence on neoconservatives fairly concisely (although it isn't properly referenced, which is problematic.) I agree with you that the above paragraph is just muddy. I would need to do some research though to understand the area much better than I do before attempting to rewrite it, unfortunately, I don't have the time right now. --Ben Houston 19:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's wait a bit and see if anyone else can make sense of it. I just do not understand what it is trying to say. Thanks for the edits.--Cberlet 04:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Man, I totally miss the point of that paragraph too. Jacrosse, I'm sure you have something in mind, but could you explain on this page what you are trying to say with the paragraph quoted above? (And if possible, please do the explaining without jargon—e.g., "French Turn," etc.) Also, there are some terms without clear antecedents in the paragraph: "the position" (which position?) and "this view" (which view?). Thanks for your help on this. Respectfully, Hydriotaphia 03:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph in question is clearly false since we know that the Trotskyists were prosecuted by the Roosevelt administration for opposing World War II as an imperialist war. You could make a partial comparison between the way Earl Browder and other Stalinists supported World War II and the way that various former Leftists of many types shifted to the Right and became neo-conservatives in the 1970s. But certainly there is no rational comparison to draw between the Trotskyists insistently maintaining that a bourgeois war against fascism is an imperialist war and the practice of neo-conservatives justifying wars to spread democracy. The latter has more in common with Rudyard Kipling's notion of the white man's burden that it does with anything ever suggested by Trotsky as to how to react to a war by the imperialist capitalist state. People who throw such claims obviously know nothing about what Leon Trotsky did and did not teach to his followers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.137.241 (talk) 15:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Wilsonian Liberals of the past

So basically Neo Cons are a bunch of Alden Pyles in the Quiet American. They are no different than the Wilsonian liberals of the 20s and 30s.

This statement is definitely far off the beam. Under Woodrow Wilson the IRS was created with a clear prerogative for taxing the wealthiest interests. Under Ronald Reagan and his successors taxation on the rich has been undone very steadily. What is the comparison.

It should also be kept in mind that paleo-cons during the Cold War had a long record of advocating global interventionism to a degree that would make the Iraq invasion appear sane by contrast. Most paleo-cons used to curse at Truman for firing MacArthur when he tried to start World War III. No honest person can say that neo-cons invented the idea of global intervention, or that they ever had to bother looking at Wilson for examples of such interventionist sentiments. There have been differences of emphasis in the way that many neo-cons versus paleo-cons have advocated sweeping military interventions, and neo-cons in particular are attached to Israel, but there is no reason for looking outisde of the conservative box when seeking precedents for the advocacy of strong-arm interventionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.134.95 (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] ... used as a pejorative by anti-Semites [quote needed]

Sorry, still haven't devoted the necessary time to the editing rules. BUT I just noticed that under the header below a quote is needed. This I can provide. Maybe somebody can help me add the link, so interested people find their way there. The original link does not work anymore. But the document was forwarded to the H-Antisemitism discussion group. Unfortunately I do not know the rules for adding notes. Maybe I manage to figure it out. If not, I would be pleased about help.

Context: Shortcomings and criticism of the term "Neoconservative"

.... or is used as a pejorative by anti-Semites. [citation needed]"

I add the citation. I take it from here:

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-antisemitism&month=0304&week=&msg=4zdiWX1EuCVzeRLDdQySKA&user=&pw=

Maybe someone can clean up after me??? I hate to leave a nitwit mess. Thanks ...???

LeaNder 20:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I love when some people attack conservatives by using the term "neoconservative" with relation to Iraq or other foreign policy issues. This opens them wide to attack by me in calling them "anti-Semites". It's my favorite opening attack and puts them instantly on the defensive. However, the problem with using GLORIA as a reference is that they are a very biased source and would wreck any attack by me on anti-neoconservatives. It's like using a Neo-Nazi source to back up arguments that Hitler was a nice guy. I would rather see some mainstream source to defend this argument, otherwise the comment should be removed until such a source can be found.
The statement that, "Some claim that as antisemites did with big business moguls in the nineteenth century and Communist leaders in the twentieth, the trick here is to take all those involved in some aspect of public life and single out those who are Jewish. The implication made is that this is a Jewish-led movement conducted not in the interests of all the, in this case, American people, but to the benefit of Jews, and in this case Israel." is not supported by your sole reference to GLORIA.
I would like to get some feedback on this topic before I make an edit of that section. Thank you. Jtpaladin 17:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Weasel Words

"There is a widespread impression", "Some of those identified" lends to Weasel Words. Especially without a Citation! Can these be re-worded, or citaiton provided (which would lead to re-wording anyways I susppose). Hackajar 09:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. The vast acreage of uncited material makes this an opinion piece, not a factual article. --Dsutton24 19:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] it looks like the neo-cons are doing all they can to make sure that this article becomes as meaningless as possible

I talk to ne-cons all the time. One thing most neo-cons will say is 'what is a neo-con". They hate the term, and try to pretend it does not exist. It is interesting to see the difficulty it is taking to write this article. It does not surprise me. I would imagine that neo-cons would be organizing to make sure that this article is as unclear and difficult to read as possible. Cheers! Webulite 01:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

  • So what are you proposing? Rtrev 02:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is interesting... It seem from the few references I've seen that the word neo-con is used primarily by liberals with a negative connotation, if not simply being used as some remote synonym to neo-nazism. I think the connotation and usage of this word deserves attention. (QUINTIX 14:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC))


[edit] American Jews vs. Jewish Neocons

I added the following statement to the section on Neoconservatism, American Jews, and "Dual Loyalty"

"However, political commentators like those in the AdBusters article stress that their criticism is not aimed towards the political views of American Jewry as a whole, but rather that the commentary is specifically about neoconservative Jews and their apparent success in steering American Mideast policy in a pro-Israeli direction (at times to the detriment of American interests)."

This is to emphasize the distinction between criticism of Neoconservative Jews, versus criticism of all Jews. Without this distinction, this section would have you believe that critics of Neoconservative Jews are automatically anti-Jewish (and lumped with "white nationalists" like David Duke).WashCali 01:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

If it's relevant to an argument against neoconservatism that many neocons are Jewish, the argument is anti-semitic. The Adbusters article is a particularly egregious example of leftist anti-semitism. Argyriou (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Your first statement does not make sense to me - please elaborate (my initial reaction is that it smacks of many an irrational smear campaign, although I sincerely hope that I am wrong). Your second statement is your personal opinion and is not relevant to the discussion.WashCali 02:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

How is it an irrational smear campaign to allege anti-semitism on the basis of a seemingly irrelevant inclusion of the demographics of an ideological movement? Could you tell me off-hand how many Irish-Americans are neo-cons, how many Mexican-Americans, how many Samoan-Americans? Your implication that a legitimate question is a smear campaign is itself a highly hostile charge. I shudder to think what the imputation of such a charge is.

[edit] UN involved in leaving Hussein in power?

From the section titled "Neoconservativism under George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton" This paragraph appears - "Particularly galvanizing to the movement was the decision of George H. W. Bush and then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Colin Powell to leave Saddam Hussein in power after the first Gulf War in 1991. Some neoconservatives viewed this policy, and the decision not to support indigenous dissident groups such as the Kurds and Shiites in their 1991-1992 resistance to Hussein, as a betrayal of democratic principles."

Wasn't that in fact the result of an agreement with the U.N.? Sorry I haven't got the data available, but I seem to remember that as being the U.N.'s wishes rather than the President's.

No. The US called all the shots in the Gulf War, and Bush Snr, Powell and General Schwarzkopf (the head of the Allied forces in the war) have all given extensive interviews since 1991 about why it would have been wrong to try and occupy the rest of Iraq. Their position, that the risk of a civil war and Vietnam-style quagmire was too great, seems to have been completely justified by events in Iraq since 2003.
Because America chose to fight the war through a UN mandate in order to build a strong international coalition for their actions, it was technically the UN that Iraq surrendered to, but in practice it was the Americans who decided to go to war in the first place and it was the Americans who decided what should happen to Saddam.
The only involvement of the UN was to approve the action proposed and carried out by the US and its allies. The Gulf War, unlike the Iraq War, was fought with broad international approval which was expressed through a UN resolution. The range of countries sending troops was also much broader in the Gulf War, for example France sent forces as part of the coalition (there's a famous bit of footage from the war where a damaged French fighter jet lands on its carrier). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk) 11:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Reagan is not a Neoconservative

This article discusses how neoconservativism was a big part of Reagan's Presidency. That is dead wrong. The neocons of the Ford era undermined Reagan's campaign. Neoconservatism is a philosophy of big government and interventionalist foreign policy. Neither of these characterize Reagan's presidency. Total spending increased in response to the Cold War. If Reagan had invaded the Soviet Union you might be able to pin him as a neoconservative, but he didn't. Iran-Contra was led by the neocons within his administration, but he took no part in it. Lasker 19:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It's been over 24 hours with this glaring error. If there is no discussion on this point in another 24 I will make some changes.

Reagan was not a neoconservative. Some members of his administration were, but the same is true of Clinton and others. I support this edit, subject to substantive argument here. Arker 02:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The big stick

The following was removed from the article some time in the last month; I think it was essentially accurate, but because it was uncited, I won't restore it at the present time. Someone might do well to back this with citations and restore it:

Neoconservative writers have frequently expressed admiration for the "big stick" interventionist foreign policy of Theodore Roosevelt. In foreign policy, critics argue that neoconservatives tend to view the world in 1939 terms [citation needed], comparing the threat from adversaries as diverse as the Soviet Union, Osama bin Laden (and, more broadly, Islamic extremism, dubbed Islamofascism by many neoconservatives), and China to the threat then-posed by Nazi Germany and Japan, while American leaders "stand in" for Winston Churchill. In this analogy, leftists and others who oppose them are cast either as Neville Chamberlain-style appeasers or as an Anti-American fifth column.

Also, the following seems on the mark, but was also deleted (apologies if this was well accounted for in an edit summary, there have been about 100 edits since I last looked at this article).

According to Peter Steinfels, a historian of the movement, the neoconservatives' "emphasis on foreign affairs emerged after the New Left and the counterculture had dissolved as convincing foils for neoconservatism . . . The essential source of their anxiety is not military or geopolitical or to be found overseas at all; it is domestic and cultural and ideological."

This appears to have been appropriately cited (Steinfels, 69); someone may want to restore. - Jmabel | Talk 06:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Page protection

I've protected because of the reverting. Please discuss here and let me know when you've reached an agreement. 142.151.175.39, as you're adding contentious material, please use your regular account. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 05:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have much of an interest in this particular article or topic, but I do notice that the same type of censorship, bullying, and irrational mass-deletion of valid information that is happening with this article in regards to the "Neoconservatism, American Jews, and 'Dual Loyalty' " section is also happening over at the Israel lobby in the United States article, along with the List of Jewish American businesspeople list (among MANY others). I'd simply like to let people know that this is not an isolated phenomenon in any way and that it has been occuring for a very long while. Sadly, the only solution seems to be 'monitor' the edits of these people closely in the hopes of preserving some semblance of NPOV in the articles that they edit/mangle. That being said, not everyone has the time and energy to constantly monitor and subsequently expose all of these biased and POV edits/deletions; thus, much valuable information has been lost and will continue to be lost due to the fascistic editing habits of these particular editors. --Wassermann 14:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's unprotect this page, I want to do some editing... Scifiintel 18:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Lead section uninformative

When it was founded and who it's associated with is unimportant. How is it different from other forms of conservatism? This information should be in the lead. –MT 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] New comment

There are two articles now, so there must be two talk files. See Talk:Neoconservatism (United States) for some issues that really belong here.

Mild update. It would be quite useful to review http://disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=neo-conservative which contains many international linkages not mentioned here, which should be.

There are also US-Israel, US-Canada, US-UK, US-Australia commonalities, each of which needs its own mentions, along with the Israel-Canada-UK cross-linkages. For instance, Conrad Black, a Canadian who hates Canada and lives in London, owns the Jerusalem Post, which calls for assassination of Yasser Arafat. And Izzy Asper, a Canadian who supports Israel unconditionally, owns Global TV which was the only Canadian TV network to send an "embedded reporter" to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Australians and US cooperate almost automatically in the War on Terrorism (just like the Vietnam War) and now seem to share an interventionist foreign policy, which Canada and the UK do not seem to share to the same degree (despite Anthony Blair, who is taking major heat for it that Bush and Howard aren't taking).

Its extremely good practice to disambig articles like this one where the words have tottaly different meanings in different areas.

{{subst: TheHypnotist}}

[edit] Making this the disambiguation page

Would it be reasonable to make this into a disambiguation page of some sort, due to the fact that there are other articles for neoconservatism in other countries, yet the main article describes the United States? TheHypnotist 03:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Since the concept is quite different in different countries it would be presumptuous to assume that the U.S. flavor is the primary meaning. However in a review of the term's usage on Wikipedia I see there is a strong tendency to use the U.S version. Upon checking the "what links here" page it looks like the overwhelming number of them intend the U.S. meaning. Someone would have to go through and relink hundreds of articles. Future editors would need to know to link to "Neoconservatism in the United States" when they write "neo-con". On the other hand, Neoconservatism (disambiguation) deserves its own page, perhaps with a short summary of the U.S. material. Let's see what other editors think. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disagreement with business lobby and fiscal conservatives section

The entire section should be deleted:

"There has been considerable conflict between neoconservatives and business conservatives in some areas.[citation needed] Neoconservatives tend to see China as a looming threat to the United States and argue for harsh policies to contain that threat.[citation needed] Business conservatives see China as a business opportunity and see a tough policy against China as opposed to their desires for trade. Business conservatives also appear much less distrustful of international institutions.[citation needed] In fact, where China is concerned neoconservatives tend to find themselves more often in agreement with liberal Democrats than with business conservatives.[citation needed] Indeed, Americans for Democratic Action - widely regarded as an "authority" of sorts on liberalism by both the American left and right alike[citation needed] - credit Senators and members of the House of Representatives with casting a "liberal" vote if they oppose legislation that would treat China favourably in the realm of foreign trade and many other matters.[citation needed]"

This is an entirely incoherent and a completely unsupported section that has no basis in fact. In fact, it is neoconservatives who support doing business with communist China. True conservatives do not support doing business with China. Nothing in this section has any citation. It is not only POV but it is a POV which does not mesh with reality. I support deletion of the whole section. Jtpaladin 14:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. If there is something to what was written in that section (and I think there is, somewhat), it can be cited. Three months without citation is enough. Αργυριου (talk) 15:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I appreciate your time and support. Jtpaladin 15:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tagged with templates due to problems

This article has long-standing and continuing problems of contentious edit-warring and contains many undocumented or insufficiently-documented statements. Please see the previous discussions by other editors, users, and the editing history summaries. The problems are not simply mechanical, format-related, or cosmetic; they are more significant than that and are related to problems of adhering to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:POV, WP:BLP, including guidelines and policies pertaining to Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Attribution, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources, as well as Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. I've tagged it with a couple of templates for those reasons. --NYScholar 00:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the tags. Much of the article is questionable in terms of reliability, POV, relevance and needs to be checked and rewritten with citations. The machine512 00:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical usage

The most recent version of this article, may 25 2007, says that Carl Schmitt and other Germans were referred to as neo-conservative in the 1930s, and cites a recent English-language book in support of the assertion. One wonders when and in what language they were described with this term ... in the English language in the 1930s? Then better to cite the original source rather than this later book. In some other language? Then the example has no point; the point is to trace the evolution of the phrase.

[edit] Deleted section

[edit] Neoconservatism, American Jews, and "Dual Loyalty"

- Some opponents of neoconservatives have sought to emphasize their interest in Israel and the relatively large proportion of Jewish neoconservatives, and have raised the question of "dual loyalty". A number of critics, such as Pat Buchanan, Juan Cole, and Kathleen and Bill Christison have accused them of putting Israeli interests above those of America.[1] In turn these critics have been labeled as anti-Semites by prominent Jewish organizations.[2]

- Former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke and some other white supremacists attack neoconservatism as advancing Jewish interests. They say a "Jewish supremacist" movement exists in the United States.[3] Similarly, during the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, the politically left-wing magazine AdBusters published a list of the "50 most influential neocons in the United States", noting that half of these were Jewish,[4] - and insinuating that the preponderance of Jews in neoconservatism leads them to "not distinguish enough between American and Israeli interests". The article asks "For example, whose interests were they protecting in pushing for war in Iraq?", and ends with the statement "And half of the them are Jewish." - - Political commentators like those in the AdBusters article state that their criticism is not aimed towards the political views of American Jewry as a whole, but rather that the commentary is specifically about neoconservative Jews and their apparent success in steering American Mideast policy in a pro-Israeli direction (at times to the detriment of American interests).[5][6] - - Neoconservatives say that they were much less interested in Israel before the June 1967 Six Day War. It was only after this conflict, which raised the specter of unopposed Soviet influence in the Middle East, that the neoconservatives became interested in Israel's security interests. They promote the view that Israel is the United States' strongest ally in the Middle East as the sole Western-style democracy in the region, aside from Turkey. - - Commenting on the alleged overtones of this view in more mainstream discourse, David Brooks, in his January 6, 2004 New York Times column wrote, "To hear these people describe it, PNAC is sort of a Yiddish Trilateral Commission, the nexus of the sprawling neocon tentacles". In a similar vein, Michael Lind, a self-described 'former neoconservative,' wrote in 2004, "It is true, and unfortunate, that some journalists tend to use 'neoconservative' to refer only to Jewish neoconservatives, a practice that forces them to invent categories like nationalist conservative or Western conservative for Rumsfeld and Cheney. But neoconservatism is an ideology, like paleoconservatism and libertarianism, and Rumsfeld and Dick and Lynne Cheney are full-fledged neocons, as distinct from paleocons or libertarians, even though they are not Jewish and were never liberals or leftists."[7] - - Lind argues that, while "there were, and are, very few Northeastern WASP mandarins in the neoconservative movement", its origins are not specifically Jewish. "...[N]eoconservatism recruited from diverse 'farm teams' including Roman Catholics (William Bennett and Michael Novak) and populists, socialists and New Deal liberals in the South and Southwest (the pool from which Jeane Kirkpatrick, James Woolsey and I [that is, Lind himself] were drawn)".[7]—Preceding unsigned comment added by Looper5920 (talk • contribs) 21:51, April 4, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-write

I'm sorry to say this, but this article has become an overlong article with accuracy and neutrality issues. I suggest that we start this article all over again, this time paying closer attention to what's inserted in the article. Who's with me? —Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 02:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I don;t think that "starting again" is the best solution. Perhaps this talk page is the place to highlight where the neutrality issues are and which sections could be trimmed. My nomination for trimming would be the "Three pillars" section: three big quotes from an online-available source that could easily be succintly paraphrased. BobFromBrockley 15:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Is it really worth our time going through such a gigantic article and picking out each individual error? (messedrocker • talk) 20:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conservative Criticism of Neoconservatism

I don't know if it should be rewritten, but I just added a section on Conservative Criticism of Neoconservatives. Conservatives, especially paleoconservatives, have been the biggest critics of neocons, even greater than liberals. Below are some seminal conservative articles criticizing the neocons.

Articles I added:

--HowardJ87 13:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing 'Administration of George W. Bush' section from article

This entire section is a synthesis and constitutes original research. It is also not reliably sourced, but providing references probably will not correct the problem. The section has been tagged for some time now, and no one has taken the initiative to fix it. Therefore, I am removing it to the talk page. I realize this is a controversial article, but this section is not entitled to stay in the article in its current form simply on the basis that the article is disputed. I would like to remind all editors that the burden of evidence is on the editor who restores controversial content to the article. By no means is it mandatory for any editor to place a {{fact}} tag on any disputed content, nor is it my obligation to fix it or improve it, contrary to some editors' beliefs. So please, if you want to salvage any of this content, correct the problems, source it properly, and restore it to the article. MoodyGroove 19:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

==Administration of George W. Bush==

This appears to be original research and needs to be sourced:

Thus, neoconservative thinkers were eager to implement a new foreign policy with the change in Administrations from Clinton to George W. Bush. Despite this, the Bush campaign and then the early Bush Administration did not appear to exhibit strong support for neoconservative principles, as candidate Bush stated his opposition to the idea of "nation-building" and an early foreign policy confrontation with China was handled without the vociferous confrontation suggested by some neoconservative thinkers. Also early in the Administration, some neoconservatives criticized Bush's Administration as insufficiently supportive of the State of Israel, and suggested Bush's foreign policies were not substantially different from those of President Clinton.

===China spy plane incident===

This contains weasel phrases and appears to be original research. This article isn't about the Bush presidency or the spy plane incident. So it needs to be linked to neoconservatism, with reliable sources.

The Bush Administration was criticized by some neoconservatives for their non-confrontational reaction during the U.S.-China spy plane incident. On April 1, 2001, a Chinese J-8 fighter collided with a U.S. Navy EP-3E spy plane over the South China Sea, killing the Chinese pilot and forcing the EP-3E to make an emergency landing on the Chinese island of Hainan, where the twenty-four members of the American crew were held and interrogated for eleven days while their plane was searched and photographed by the Chinese. The Bush Administration conducted diplomacy and then issued a statement of regret to the Chinese Foreign Ministry.[8] President Reagan's former Assistant Secretary of Defense, Frank Gaffney, wrote in an article in National Review Online that President Bush "should use this occasion to make clear to the American people that the PRC is acting in an increasingly belligerent manner. Mr. Bush needs to talk about these threats as well as his commitment to defend the American people, their forces overseas and their allies."[9]

===September 11, 2001===

This appears to be original research and needs to be referenced with reliable sources.

The influence of neoconservatism in the Bush administration appeared to have found its purpose in the shift from the threat of Communism to the threat of Islamic terrorism. The administration undertook an invasion of Afghanistan shortly after the September 11 attacks, to remove the al-Qaeda-supporting Taliban from power. The administration also began planning and obtaining political and diplomatic support for an invasion of Iraq, citing Iraq's dictatorial government, support for terrorism, purported links to al-Qaeda, work on chemical and nuclear weapons, and refusal to abide by U.N. resolutions regarding inspection of weapons programs.

This appears to be original research and needs to be referenced with reliable sources.

Neoconservative identification with the State of Israel was furthered by the September 11 attacks, which served to create a perceived parallel between the United States and Israel as democratic nations under the threat of terrorist attack. Moreover, some neoconservatives have long advocated that the United States should emulate Israel's tactics of pre-emptive attacks, especially Israel's strikes in the 1980s on nuclear facilities in Libya and Osirak, Iraq.

==="Bush Doctrine"===

This is original research and contains a synthesis. How is the Bush Doctrine related to neoconservatism? If that's the argument it needs to be sourced.

lol. The Bush doctrine is also commonly called 'the Wolfowitz doctrine' for a reason. There's a gap between 'unsourced' and original research a mile wide and mile deep.WolfKeeper 22:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
It's the synthesis that bothers me. First, going after terrorists (or the nations that harbor them) after September 11, 2001 is not pre-emptive. Second, the quote "will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries..." needs to be sourced (who said it, when, and to whom?) and the comment "This doctrine can be seen as the abandonment of a focus on the doctrine of deterrence [...] through mutual assured destruction..." seems bizarre to me, because it implies that "mutual assured destruction" (usually understood to mean nuclear war) is a viable alternative to the Bush Doctrine in the global war on terrorism. That seems like an odd chain of reasoning to me. MoodyGroove 00:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove
The Bush Doctrine, promulgated after September 11, incorporates the concept that nations harboring terrorists are themselves enemies of the United States. It also embraces the Clinton Doctrine, which is the view that pre-emptive military action is justified to protect the United States from the threat of terrorism or attack. Both doctrines state that the United States "will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries from pursuing a military build-up in hopes of surpassing, or equaling, the power of the United States." This doctrine can be seen as the abandonment of a focus on the doctrine of deterrence (in the Cold War through Mutual Assured Destruction) as the primary means of self-defense. While there have been occasional preemptive strikes by American forces, until recently preemptive strikes have not been an official American foreign and military policy.

This is a synthesis and shows only that the AEI agreed with the fundamental premise of the Bush doctrine.

Neoconservatives won a landmark victory with the Bush Doctrine after September 11. Thomas Donnelly, a resident fellow at the influential conservative think-tank, American Enterprise Institute (AEI), argued in "The Underpinnings of the Bush doctrine" that "the fundamental premise of the Bush Doctrine is true: The United States possesses the means—economic, military, diplomatic—to realize its expansive geopolitical purposes. Further, and especially in light of the domestic political reaction to the attacks of September 11, the victory in Afghanistan and the remarkable skill demonstrated by President Bush in focusing national attention, it is equally true that Americans possess the requisite political willpower to pursue an expansive strategy."

This paragraph shows that Max Boot favors an aggressive U.S. foreign policy. How is it related to the Bush presidency? The implied argument is a synthesis.

In his well-publicized piece "The Case for American Empire" in the conservative Weekly Standard, Max Boot argued that "The most realistic response to terrorism is for America to embrace its imperial role." He countered sentiments that the "United States must become a kinder, gentler nation, must eschew quixotic missions abroad, must become, in Pat Buchanan's phrase, 'a republic, not an empire'," arguing that "In fact this analysis is exactly backward: The September 11 attack was a result of insufficient American involvement and ambition; the solution is to be more expansive in our goals and more assertive in their implementation."

Nearly identical to neoconservatism? Original research and synthesis. The fact that Bush praised a book that is 'similar to neoconservatism' means what exactly?

President Bush has expressed praise for Natan Sharansky's book, The Case For Democracy, which promotes a foreign policy philosophy nearly identical to neoconservatives'. President Bush has effusively praised this book, calling it a "glimpse of how I think".[10]

Original research and unsourced speculation:

At the same time, there have been limits in the power of neoconservatives in the Bush administration. The former Secretary of State Colin Powell (as well as the State department as a whole) was largely seen as being an opponent of neoconservative ideas. However, with the resignation of Colin Powell and the promotion of Condoleezza Rice, along with widespread resignations within the State department, the neoconservative point of view within the Bush administration has been solidified. While the neoconservative notion of tough and decisive action has been apparent in U.S. policy toward the Middle East, it has not been seen in U.S. policy toward China and Russia or in the handling of the North Korean nuclear crisis.

===Impact of 2003 Iraq War===

====Charges of appeasement====

This is unsourced and the cited reference is to a photo of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam Hussein's hand. Need I go on?

Neoconservative proponents of the 2003 Iraq War likened the conflict to Winston Churchill stand against Adolf Hitler. Former United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld[11] likened Hussein to Joseph Stalin and Hitler. President George W. Bush singled out Iraq's dictator as the "great evil" who "by his search for terrible weapons, by his ties to terrorist groups, threatens the security of every free nation, including the free nations of Europe."

This is unsourced.

In the writings of Paul Wolfowitz, Norman Podhoretz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Max Boot, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, William Bennett, Peter Rodman, and others influential in forging the foreign policy doctrines of the Bush administration, there are frequent references to the appeasement of Hitler at Munich in 1938, to which are compared the Cold War's policies of détente and containment (rather than rollback) with the Soviet Union and the PRC.

What is a conventional foreign policy expert? That's a weasel phrase and shows a POV issue. The general concept is true but needs to be sourced.

While more conventional foreign policy experts argued that Iraq could be restrained by enforcing No-Fly Zones and by a policy of inspection by United Nations inspectors to restrict its ability to possess chemical or nuclear weapons, neoconservatives considered this policy direction ineffectual and labeled it appeasement of Saddam Hussein.

Also removing this unsourced addition to the History and origins section by 76.215.208.144 (talk · contribs) 02:36, 2 July 2007

"Neocons" belive that the United States should not be ashamed to use its unrivaled power- forcefully if necessary- to promote its values around the wolrd. Some even speak of the need to cultivate a U.S. empire. Neoconservatives believe modern threats facing the US can no longer be reliably contained and therefore must be prevented, through preemptive military action.

[edit] List of Neoconservatives

I looked through this lengthy talk page and did not see anything about this, though I may have missed it. Why is there not a list page of Neoconservatives? I think that would be useful as there are list pages for socialists, libertarians, etc. --CommonSense101 20:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of the Neoconservative movement

Leo Strauss is considered the mind behind the movement. Granted he did not start the movement, he was the influence that created the movement. On Fukuyama's own wikipage it says he is indebted to Strauss. (This unsigned comment left by Aptitude (talk · contribs) 21:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Hillary Clinton

Today's Cato Daily Podcast highlighted the similarities of Hillary Clinton and the neoconservatives.

Here is the link: Cato Daily Podcast July, 30 2007—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayson Virissimo (talk • contribs)

[edit] Popular culture criticisms

I think the "Criticism in popular culture" section[2] of the article is not worthy of being in an encyclopedia article. Only some of the bullet points really pass the notability criterion - it's an arbitrary list of trivial factoids. Can we cut it? BobFromBrockley 09:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hate Speech

"Some would argue that the term neoconservative is hate speech." Do we have a citation for the "some" who would make this claim? Otherwise, I think it is POV.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.25.238 (talk • contribs)

[edit] What is Neoconservatism?

The first five paragraphs of introduction do not answer this question. They do say a little bit about what it is not. Perhaps this inadequate intro can be amended with some broad definitions.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.52.16 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Barry Goldwater

I reverted this edit that removed the following comment: [Neoconservatism] achieved its first victory in the nomination of Barry Goldwater as the Republican Presidential candidate in 1964 The edit summary said: The Neoconservatives did not come from the Goldwater campaign, most Neoconservatives opposed the Goldwater movement - See pg 38 of "Where the Right went Wrong" by Pat Buchanan

The comment in question was well referenced:

  1. ^ Rick Perlstein, Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus (New York: Hill and Wang, 2001)
  2. ^ William F. Buckley, Jr., Up From Liberalism (Stein and Day, 1984)

So Icon1776 (talk · contribs) threw out the above captioned references by Perlstein and Buckley in favor of a reference from a book written by Pat Buchanan. I don't think that's a sufficient reason to remove the comment, especially considering that Harry Jaffa is credited with writing Goldwater's famous quote "Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." If you want to add (in an appropriate place) that Buchanan disagrees, I don't have a problem with that. MoodyGroove 23:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

My thought is that we really need to consider whether this discussion of Goldwater's nomination as "the first victory" for neoconservatives belongs at the top of the page. I've made no edits, but someone should really rethink this. Perlstein is a pop-politics author, not a scholar. His academic credentials are a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science and an unfinished graduate degree. I think we can safely say that William F. Buckley, Jr. is not a neutral academic authority. Frankly, neither of these comments qualifies as academically suitable. Harry Jaffa's involvement in Goldwater's campaign as a speech writer is hardly evidence of Goldwater's political views. Further, Goldwater stood for libertarian policies, something completely at odds with the modern definition of the term "neoconservative". 21:34 GMT, 11 Nov. 2007, BriceTimmons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.163.191 (talk) 21:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger of article "Roots of neoconservativism" into "Neoconservatism"

It has been suggested that Roots of neoconservativism be merged into Neoconservatism by NYScholar with this edit
Comment and critique invited. -- Yellowdesk 00:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Support: I don't see why that fairly short article has any content that should not be in this article. BobFromBrockley 08:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Merge. There is no apparent reason why these two articles should be separated. --m3taphysical 23:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Merge. Neoconservative is straw-man term and, as this article demonstrates, can only be explained in the context in which it was used and the character of the political views of those who used it. The other article provides a better foundation. Rogerfgay 20:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Support The articles support each other and are both small, we should merge them.71.57.186.45 (talk) 21:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge or delete. This article isn't notable enough to stand on it's own, and I don't see why it shouldn't be included in the "Neoconservatism" page.Reinoe (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Team B

Several people closely associated with or identified as neoconservatives were involved with Team B. The Power of Nightmares states that Rumsfeld lobbied Ford to set the team up. IMO Team B needs to be mentioned, as it shows how the Neoconservatives have historically operated against both USSR and against Saddam Hussein in Iraq by grossly exaggerating the evidence and hyping up unrealistic threats.WolfKeeper 02:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Support: I think the article should be merged with the "Roots of Neoconservatism". this information would give a "big picture" application of the movement, especially if it focuses on real-life policies. Eviemhm (talk) 22:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)eviemhm

[edit] Neocons vs. Academia

To combat the one-sided views of neoconservativism generally presented in academia, I'm looking for a pro-neoconservative book to have my students read. Most of the texts in my left-wing discipline present neoconservatism in a harsh, biased light. Can anyone recommend a good starter text for an upper-level class on World Politics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by M. Frederick (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

None???? Seriously?

There's no starter text that pro-neocon because neoconservatives are Platonic political theorists. Straussian political theory views the education of "the masses" in politics as a bad idea. Leo Strauss published enough material for any professor. Francis Fukuyama is extensively published, and William Kristol has written plenty. Further, while the Straussians see themselves as a group (or possibly two groups, West Coast and East Coast), they do not typically identify under a sub-party banner like Libertarians or Progressives. Thus, no one who is actually a legitimate, academic neoconservative would write a "pro-neoconservative book". The most common neoconservative text which comes to mind is Frum and Perle's An End to Evil. It is, in my opinion, intentionally trite hogwash. In true Platonist fashion it condenses the authors' ideas into a mass-consumable "noble lie". 23:40 GMT, 11 Nov. 2007 BriceTimmons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.163.191 (talk) 21:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iraq War

Was wondering how there could be an article on neoconservatives without any mention of their role in the Bush II administration, the origins of the war in Iraq and the ramifications of that intervention. Wanted to put something in about that.Mysteryquest 20:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Would it also be appropriate to talk about Kennedy? It seems like if we started adding things like that it would never stop. --24.251.155.132 05:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2000?

I guess this is related to the previous post, but why is there no 2000 in tracing the development/history of neoconservatism? This would seem to be its most important period inasmuch as its the application of one of its most basic tenants, the war in Iraq and the imposition of American ideals, etc.Mysteryquest 21:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neoconservatism/Israel/Evangelism/Islam/Bush Administration/Iraq/Iran/Nuclear Power/Preemptive War

i agree with several other posters that the article currently revels in historically situating neoconservatism as a philosophical legacy while ignoring the reality of actions taken by people like scooter libby, paul wolfowitz, feith, wurmser, cheney, rice, bush, pat roberts, bolton, and others who have become de facto neoconservatives in the eyes of the world, if not in the eyes of their defenders, by adhering themselves to that which neoconservatism has become.

semantics, citations, arguments aside; as lao tzu once wrote, the eternal truth cannot be told, so it is at best self-deluded and at worst deliberately propagandistic to claim that one set of facts is "POV" while another set is not.

the reality of neoconservatism is that it is allied in history with the bush administration and its destructive invasion of iraq. a continued failure by the wikipedia article to put that into proper context simply spotlights the limitations of the wikipedia format. the article needs improvement imho.

this writer must let more pedantic souls argue wording, since i so strongly miss the taste of truth in this article (that neoconservatism is the illegitimate father of usa imperialism) that i cannot bother to contribute more than this reaction, hoping that truly fair-minded people who are interested in providing accuracy in the wikipedia format will recognize that the article is faulty until it puts the neoconservative manifestation in bush's administration into appropriate context.

there might be no neoconservatism worth writing an article about, were it not for the election of 2000 and the bush administration and its invasion of iraq. the article does not convey that truth adequately to me. it pretends that neoconservatism is a bunch of old, jaded hippies. it is not. neoconservatism is the club name of a bunch of self-righteous, violent, paranoid, religiously fanatical, american imperialists. that truth should be known to readers who wish to learn about neoconservatism. citations would certainly be available were it worth the bother to provide them. do your own due diligence.

The standard of the Wikipedia is not truth, it is verifiability with reliable sources. It has nothing to do with fairness. It has everything to do with the fact that the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox for anti-Americanism or anti-neoconservatism. The comments you provide here (which do not assume good faith on the part of editors who do not share your point of view) do nothing to help this article or the Wikipedia. If you want to read an article that outlines your version of the "reality of neoconservatism" I would recommend The Power of Nightmares. It's right up your alley. MoodyGroove 14:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove
Good advice, particularly since The Power of Nightmares meets the definition of Reliable Source in the Wikipedia. :-)WolfKeeper 19:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neocon Policies

Added a section of Neocon Policies that describes what distinguishes neocons from other movements. Incredibly, there was no description of this. I used an in-depth article written by Kristol, who cheerfully refers to himself as a neocon, and who is considered by many to be the founder of neoconservatism. Thank you, Jgui 08:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits have consideerably improved the article. However, the Kristol article is summarized in a section near the end[3], so there is now repetitiion - one of the two section needs to go, and the material merged. Meanwhile, I think there is also repetition between the lede, which talks about etymology, the section on usage[4] and the section on the term as a pejorative[5]. Anyone feel like dealing with this? BobFromBrockley 16:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Bobfrombrockley, thanks, I had missed the alternate Kristol section since it was so paraphrased and pared down. As you suggested, I incorporated bits of it into the section I had added, and the remaining sentence into the Usage and general views section, which I then renamed (since usage was gone). I also incorporated the pejorative section into criticism. I agree with you that there is still a lot of repetive and unnecessary history: I think the history and evolution of views sections are both long and could be combined, but that is too much work for me now. I will revisit though. Thank you, Jgui 22:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bush administration

Added a section on Bush Administration. Apparently all current history (from election of Bush to today) was removed by MoodyGroove in June. His reason was that the text he removed was OR or at least uncited. I have therefore been careful to write a new section using cited text from Reliable Sources. Thank you, Jgui 06:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Here's the thing

As I read the article, I don't think it emphasizes enough that this is about political labeling more than political philosophy. It has to do with political rhetoric and party line campaigning more than actual political philosophy. Reagan slapped a "conservative" label on a very left-wing political agenda that really had nothing to do with the philosophical rhetoric used to sell his positions. He was so effective at it that his far left domestic agenda is alive and kicking today - with bipartisan support. Republican "neocons" (so to speak) are still today fighting to take credit for policy initiatives that completely eliminated application of the Bill of Rights in major areas such as family law. Rogerfgay 10:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where is honest proof that

...from the first paragraph

"In summary, Neo-Conservatism is the belief of the elite, that they should take all liberties away in order to profit maximally from them. In order to do this, events are staged as a contribution to cultivating fear and panic which, through the media principally, is manipulated into voting through such acts as will take away civil liberties - as has recently been seen in the USA."

No credibility form Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by William Wallace Lives (talk • contribs) 00:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

I removed "By the 1980s, being considered a conservative was no longer a cultural insult.[12]" as it is unsourced and nonsensical for an encyclopedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.178.94.104 (talk) 23:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

Jgui has done some good work in tidying up this unruly article. I think it needs more work, but am unsure how to proceed. The main problem is the way issues around etymology and issues around the neoconservative movement work together. I think it would be helpful to remove all the material to do with the usage of the term to one specific section. There is also a lot of repetition around relationships with other forms of conservatism, and material under "criticisms" on crits by other conservatives needs to be placed in closer relationship with "distinctions from other conservatives". What do people think? BobFromBrockley 12:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC) To be more specific, I think that the article should be reworked like this:

  • "Evolution of neocon views" [6] should be taken apart and its sections distributed elsewhere.
    • The first 2 paras of "Usage & general views" [7] (on usage) should form the start of a new section on the usage of the term neoconservatism. The 2nd 2 paras (on general views) should be merged into "Drift away from New Left" [8], which it partly repeats.
    • "Neocon views on foreign policy" [9] should either become its own section, or move into historical section, perhaps jsut before "1980s" [10].
    • "Distinctions from other conservatives" [11] should form section of its own.
    • "Criticism of the term" [12] should form subsection of new section on usage (see above)
  • Criticisms section should likewise be split up, with the bits on libertarian and paleo-cons going into new "Distinctions from other conservatives" section (see above).

How does that sound? BobFromBrockley 12:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] what is neo conservatism?

i read the article. i still don't understand what is the term. will someone please explain what is neo-cons? please do it in simple words in the top of the artice. 217.194.205.230 (talk) 16:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-con

Neoconservatives are often dubbed neocons by critics. i think this is very misleading, as i understand it the full term neoconservative was originally a criticism. There no really evidence that neo-con is anything more than shorthand for the full term. The sources for that statement are being misused. --Neon white (talk) 17:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of Neoconservative

The use of the term "neoconservative" appears to have changed over time. It once was used to describe conservatives who rejected the post-war consensus on economic and social policies in the US, UK and Canada, and wanted to return the Republican and Conservative Parties to their perceived roots. Sometimes they were called "neoliberals", since they espoused classical liberalism rather than Toryism. So Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher and Brian Mulroney were described as neo-conservatives and sometimes as neo-liberals, in contrast to previous leaders like Jerry Ford, Ted Heath and Joe Clark.

However in recent years, usage has changed to refer to supporters of George W. Bush's foreign policy, and the term is sometimes a proper noun in upper case. Also, while the earlier neoconservatives were influenced by Hayek, the current group are influenced by Strauss.

Today, Reagan and Thatcher are more often described as simply conservative.

While the article acknowledges different usages, I think it might acknowlege how it has changed.

--The Four Deuces (talk) 09:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What does a present neoconservative look like?

The current picture is like showing what a chicken looks like, by showing a dinasaur.

See Paul Wolfowitz. 142.150.204.167 (talk) 18:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weight and OR in relation to Eoghan Harris

While it is a fact that Eoghan Harris supports many of the Bush administrations actions I don't know of a source that is calling him a "neo-conservative". First off there is a huge undue weight issue here. Secondly its completely unsourced. Thirdly connecting a supporter of the Bush administartion with being a support of neo-conservativism in general (without sources) is OR. I'm tagging the section as unsourced and as OR - if sources can't be found for it soon it will have to go--Cailil talk 23:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I moved all details about Ireland and U.K. to Neoconservatism (disambiguation), because Neoconservatism is about the U.S. Affect on US. neocons was not supported. I created a new section in this article, Neoconservatism#Usage outside the United States and linked to and summarized the text of Neoconservatism (disambiguation). You can make new articles for Ireland and UK if they warrant it, following the example of:
- Colfer2 (talk) 22:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism, New Left, Origin of the term, Realism

Today I cleaned up the refs and took out a lot of wordiness. A lot! I adjusted for some WP:MOS stuff like straight quotes and italics. The refs still need work. As for substantive content, here are the changes I made:

  • Antisemitism: I found a few more refs to the "neocon is a codeword for Jewish" type stuff, better than the GLORIA email. I added a new section, and dragged out related existing content from the Criticism of the term neoconservative section. It's a bit long maybe, though I trimmed the quotes pretty severely. The NeoCon Reader book has a good article by Max Boot, addressing the stereotyping issue, which I did not use. The same book has the David Brooks article I quoted. Much of it is available to read on Google books.
  • New Left: I commented out a confusing phrase about the New Left coming out of the Soviet denunciation of Stalin. A bunch of clauses were stuffed into one sentence and it was not clear to me what it meant. The article New Left asserts that Khrushchev's 1956 speech and Hungary 1956 were important to the development of the U.K. left, but that the U.S. left was more tied to domestic developments. In any case, you'd have to get into Maoism & China to round it out, and it is pretty murky. I think maybe just leaving it as a wikilink to New Left suffices for that. I kept in the wikilink to the "anti-Stalinist left", which had been munged to read "anti-Soviet", which was weird. And not correct except historically. Also, Détente was thrown in at the beginning of the sentence, but that was 10-15 years later, so it was a mess, and I think I fixed it pretty well. New version:
“ The neoconservatives, arising from the anti-Stalinist left of the 1950s, opposed the anti-capitalism of the New Left of the 1960s. They broke from the liberal consensus of the early post-World War II years in foreign policy as well, opposing Détente with the Soviet Union in the late 1960s and 1970s. ”
  • Origin of the term. I added more detailed sources for Michael Harrington's coining of the term in 1973. All sides seem to agree on this. I merged two different paragraphs discussing the history of the term, one towards the beginning and one at the end of the section! This allowed an easy way to introduce Irving Kristol & Podhoretz: by mentioning when they first embraced the term: 1979 and 1982 (or earlier, I left it open), and what they did leading up to that. Very brief of course.
    • Actually there is one small issue of Harrington, probably not important. The book I cited says he first broached the subject at a Commentary symposium in 1973 before he published the Dissent article of the same year. If I get a hold of the Commentary article, I'll see what words he used there. But I left that open anyway.
  • Realism. Realism (international relations) was wikilinked with the visible text "pragmatic" approach to foreign policy. But the wikilink now redirects to Political realism. So I used that wording, appending in foreign relations.

I tried to make the diff easy to read, but I missed a couple of line breaks, and the wiki machine does not tolerate those well. -Colfer2 (talk) 23:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ack, I'm going to tweak that paragraph above, to:
“ The neoconservatives, arising from the anti-Stalinist left of the 1950s, opposed the anti-capitalism of the New Left of the 1960s. They broke from the liberal consensus of the early post-World War II years in foreign policy, and opposed Détente with the Soviet Union in the late 1960s and 1970s. ”
-Colfer2 (talk) 00:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heritage Foundation

"Prominent neoconservative periodicals are Commentary and The Weekly Standard. Neoconservatives are associated with foreign policy initiatives of think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), The Heritage Foundation, and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)." While it's true that there are many neoconservatives associated with the Heritage Foundation, it is certainly not a specifically neoconservative institution. (I suspect the same may be true of AEI, which I don't know as well). Perhaps some rewording is in order here to distinguish it from the archetypically neoconservative PNAC and the solidly neoconservative JINSA? - Jmabel | Talk 22:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

I removed the following sentence from the intro to this section:

It can violate the freedoms of not only that government's citizens, but other governments' citizens for establishing global order.

for being both unclear in meaning and unsourced. Ms. Clo (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)