Talk:Neoclassical Darkwave

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[edit] Neo-classical

Sorry, I don't really know Wikipedia system to understand how to put a comments to one of the versions. I completely don't agree that neo-classical music has ANYTHING to do with darkwave subgenre. Neo-classic much closer to some new age styles, because many new age artists are actually working in neo-classical genre. Such groups as Rondo Veneziano or Secret Garden are most typical representatives of them. Neo-classical or neo-instrumental (what is actually the same, but far away from modern classical or darkwave) music is inspired and even based on classical music. Like JP Reverberi music (Rondo Veneziano) is based on baroque music. Some modern artist has no direct connection to the classical music, but the music composed and performed in such a way when the classical music is the most close from the point of composition and ideas. Take George Winston piano solos as example.

PS Look for example at the first paragraph on the wikipedia page about Secret Garden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Garden_(duo)).


230 google results of "Rondo+Veneziano+neoclassical"
47 google results of "Reverberi+neoclassical" ???


compare it with the other results:
3.920 google results of "dargaard+neoclassical"
20.500 google results of "arcana+neoclassical"
140.000 google results of "dead+can+dance+neoclassical".
It's a fact. The most of these neoclassical music artists came out of the darkwave movement. Maybe Secret Garden are musically influenced by darkwave artists? --~Menorrhea 13:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Rondo Veneziano is in general not so popular. For "Dead can Dance" Google shown 34 400 000 pages, while for RV only 347 000. These results do not reflect stronger association of neo-classic, but more the level of the group popularity. I don't think in Secret Garden music you'll find mush of darkwave. Let's say like this: for me the main features of neo-classical music are first, very delicate and even refined attention to the melody and composition (but never to the rhytm). Second, music should be composed by modern artist (so far that's NEO-classical). And third (as you described in the article) music should be inspired by early or classical music. JP Reverberi is a perfect example, because he is a modern composer who did everything what is possible to recover and even ressurect baroque music. Secret Garden inspired both by norvegian classics and early Ireland music, what put them close to new age music. There are also many other modern artists with great attention to the melody and composition, and they always closer to new age, than to any kind of rock or pop music. I don't know Dead can Dance music very well. I just want to say (1) For me groups like RV or SG are actually the most typical representative of neo-classical music and (2) I don't see a reason why they should be classified to the different group. Ok, new age and neo-classical music are very close - agree. Neo-classical and darkwave music? May be, that's true as well.

And one more question. 14th of October you wrote: "neo-classical is definitely a darkwave subgenre with dark, apocalyptic sounds". Excuse me, but classical music has ever anything to do with "dark and apocalyptic sound"??? Obviously, if main feature of neo-classical music is dark and apocalyptic sound then it also should be the main feature for the classical music and then somehow adopted to the modern way by modern artists. So, is classical music definitely a genre with dark and apocalyptic sound?

Sorry, that's me again :) Start to look for defenitions of neo-classic by Google and went to the http://music.download.com where I found the following text: "What Is Neo-Classical? Before the dawn of the 20th century, a western movement--loosely referred to as New Age--emerged with the idea that modern civilization was entering an age of intellectual and spiritual enlightenment. Based somewhat on eastern philosophies and a sense of optimism, its cultural impact has been slim yet steady. In 1967 the musical Hair introduced many to "the dawning of the age of Aquarius," and suddenly the concept of positivity, mysticism, and idealism seemed more palatable. New Age music emerged a bit later in the wake of groundbreaking works such as Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells and Brian Eno's Ambient 1: Music for Airports. New Age is a broad term, but its aesthetic consists mainly of gentle arrangements that blend into soothing ambient textures. It can be keyboard-driven and electronic-based, or acoustic and organic in origin. Just don't forget to light a candle as you listen. Notable Artists: Enya, George Winston, Robert Julian Horky"

Do you see notable artists? If you go to the New Age group, at the right panel of the page, you'll find there Neo-classical together with Contemporary Instrumental, Enviromental, Meditational and healing etc., so among typical new age styles.

New Age is New Age, Ambient Music is Ambient Music and Neo-classical Music is Neoclassical Music. Don't waste my time with web-based POV definitions. Hear the Dead Can Dance album "Within The Realm Of A Dying Sun". This is dark and apocalyptic... Neoclassical or (german) Neoklassik is in use since the early 90s. The term came into widespread use with Neofolk. --~Menorrhea 13:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It isn't quite that easy. For example, most "darkwave" bands associated with "neo-classical music" are also categorized as Martial music and Military pop, which in my opinion (oh yes, POV) are much better genre names, as they are not implying an relation with Classical music, which neo-classical bands usually has nothing to do with. 80.216.158.220 01:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

From the links I've shown quite obvious that the same word "neo-classical" is often used both for definition of darkwave subgenre as well as for defenition of new age subgenre. Why are you so sure about you rights to judje and be the only right person in the Universe with no possibility to make a mistake? Go and listen Rondo Veneziano or Secret Garden - they have nothing to do with dark and apokalyptic sound and still people describe them as neo-classical music. Why did it happens that's a different question - but right now people are using the same word in two different meanings. I have a suggestion to put this information to the Wikipedia. Let's describe that the same term "neo-classic" is often used to describe darkwave subgenre (with Dead can Dance and other as a typical artists) as well as to define one of the mew age subgenre (with Rondo Veneziano and Secret Garden as a typical artists). That's fair enough. So far people are using the term in different meanings - both of theme should be described.


Fair? Neoclassical is a darkwave genre, that's a fact. The google result speaks for itself. The music became popular with a dark and apocalyptic sound, Dead Can Dance, Arcana and others are the main artists of the genre.
This is the result of google.com: 271 !!! google results of "Rondo+Veneziano+neoclassical"
I cannot find your result of 347 000 pages. --~Menorrhea 21:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, fair. I'm not arguing that neo-classic is not used to define darkwave subgenre, I'm telling you that the same word also applied for new age subgenre. As you already saw neo-classical music is present among new age genres at http://music.download.com. If that's not enough - go to the www.allmusic.com one of the biggest and famous music guides in the Internet, open New age styles (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=73:117) and find "Neo-classical" among new age subgenres. That's a fact as you used to say - new age is a genre and neo-classical is a style within this genre. I'm not going to convince you that music of Dead can dance or Arcana can't be described as neo-classical music, but I'm showing you examples that term "neo-classic" is also used for the designation of other music types as well. So far you like Google so much, type there "Secret Garden and neo-classical" and you will get more then 104 000 pages (http://www.google.com/search?hs=XNO&hl=ru&client=opera&rls=ru&q=Secret+Garden+and+neo-classical&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA&lr=), while Secret garden music doesn't have even traces of "apocalyptical sound". That's correct that Rondo Veneziano usually described themself as just a classical or pop-classical music. On the other hand, they don't performed classical music arrangement since ages. Absolute majority of their music are original melodies composed by GP Reverberi in style and traditions of baroque music, what make them much close to neo-classical music then to classical music itself. Of course, I can write or modify article in wikipedia but what's point to correct one another texts? Let's first discuss the subject properly and then describe the final conclusions.

All the best, Malfet

PS "My result" of 347 000 pages for Rondo Veneziano, which you didn't manage to find, is a TOTAL number of pages Google show for "Rondo Veneziano" query - while TOTAL number of pages for Dead can dance is 34 400 000 pages. Look carefully.


I think we should split the lemma:
~Menorrhea 17:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


Now you can create a New Age article. BTW: There is a third genre called Neo-classical Metal. ~Menorrhea 19:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


Ok. Thank you, neo-classical is spreading like hell among all possible music types :) Only neo-classical pop and neo-classical classical are missing

All the best, Malfet


[edit] Article naming

Well, seeing as the darkwave article has darkwave as a single word, I think it would be more appropriate to call this article Neoclassical (darkwave). Certainly, it shouldn't have the capitals on Darkwave or Dark Wave, as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words in titles. Anyone have any objection to that? J Milburn 22:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you rename the "Darkwave" article to a "Dark Wave" article? This genre is inseparably connected to the New Wave movement and i can't find a Newwave article. Most of the mentions in germany are "Dark Wave" - not "Darkwave". "Darkwave" is mainly a spelling of the Projekt label in USA. They didn't use the term before 1993. --~Menorrhea 17:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
That is interesting, I didn't realise that. I was under the impression that darkwave was the more accurate spelling for a number of reasons- for instance, google asks if I mean 'darkwave' when I type 'dark wave'. Hmmm, looking around a few music sites, the term 'dark wave' does appear to be more prevelent. In either case, this should be moved due to the unneeded capitals anyway. J Milburn 18:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
We can't move it, there seems to be a technical problem. I tried the Dark Wave lemma, maybe we must delete the disambiguation. --~Menorrhea 03:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, that disambiguation page meets a speedy deletion criteria, and so I have am nominating it. After that, presuming you have raised the matter on the Darkwave talk page, and a consensus has been met, you will be able to move it. J Milburn 16:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of life in the darkwave article, the debate should now be moved there. If it is decided to keep it as it is, this article should be renamed as I originally proposed. Help:Moving a page may well be relevent, and the tags at Wikipedia:Cleanup tags#Moving will also be. J Milburn 16:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation link

Wouldn't it be nice to have a disambiguation link (or whatever those couple-of-rows-things in italic are) to neoclassicism (classical)? Or would it be just a starting point of an endless sea of such linkings? I found the page a bit confusing, not aware of the whole genre, while randomly skimmed there. :)

Jaakko Kortesharju, contemporary music student, Finland (note, not my own IP, going to keep adding a real name signature if not registering) 87.162.167.20 19:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Collection d'Arnell-Andrea

Oh-oh, I messed with someone's little sandbox toy: I actually had the audacity to add a band to the sacred list! And God promptly removed it. Of course, Collection d'Arnell-Andrea IS neoclassical darkwave, but that's beside the point. The point is: no one but GOD can play in this sandbox. So, have your little sandbox all to yourself, Mr. GOD. It doesn't make one whit of difference. Another band you did not think fit to include in your sacred little list is Amber Asylum, totally neoclassical darkwave, the very epitome of this genre. I really have to laugh, you put Derniere Volonte in this list, just because you like his music (who doesn't?), but he is clearly NOT neoclassical!

No, I don't think this is his playground. This is just that Ada Ataki has a real problem with civility and observing wikipedia's rules. We already had problems with him with many other articles. I can predict that soon or later he will get blocked. btw, if I were you I wouldn't leave my Email adress in here, unless you want to be spammed by countless bots.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 06:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Frédérick, thanks for setting me straight on Ada. I am very much interested in this type of music, having discovered it after years of listening to traditional classical. By and large, I think the information presented is accurate, though a little too succinct. As for my adding Collection d'Arnell Andréa to the listing, their earlier music clearly fits into this genre, but of course they did veer away into a more pop-oriented sound later on. At any rate, the listing appears to be very flexible, so why not include them? I hope to be able to contribute to this article, since I believe this type of music is among the most sophisticated and beautiful music now being made. I consider myself a responsible contributor! Thanks, Dan Greenfield.
Collection d'Arnell-Andrea is primarily a Coldwave group. They use guitars. Guitars are atypical for Neoclassical. Point and EOD. --Ada Kataki (talk) 13:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Dan, may I ask you to provide sources supporting the claim that this band is primarly a (gothic) neoclassical band ?
Ada, your argument seems to make sense. But for the moment, I have the feeling that once again you argue with your POV. Please could you give sources (not arguments) supporting the claim that their style is primarly coldwave and could you also provide sources concerning (gothic) neoclassical being caracterized by an absence of guitars.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 06:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I will look for independent sources for this claim, but I doubt that even that will be acceptable to Ada. Collection d'Arnell Andréa is an example of a band that has changed over time. They were originally neoclassical as one can get. In particular, Un Automne à Loroy and Au Val des Roses are thoroughly neoclassical releases. Admittedly they evolved a more electro-pop style with the release of Exposition. But from what I know of them, they still play both types of music. --Daniel Greenfield —Preceding comment was added at 01:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


The French darkwave band Collection d'Arnell Andréa has made several albums that are distinctly neoclassical, so they should probably be included in the list. However, other editors have disagreed about this, saying that they make use of electric guitars in their later albums, and as such are more closely related to what is called 'Coldwave'. The albums that are clearly neoclassical darkwave are: Un Automne à Loroy, Au Val des Roses, and Tristesse des Mânes. Several tracks on the albums Les Marronniers and Villers-aux-Vents (Février 1916) also can be considered neoclassical.

The request to provide sources to back up the argument that CdAA is neoclassical darkwave is reasonable but difficult to provide since they are a band largely unknown outside France, and even within France they are a minor band. However, it does not require an IQ above 100 to hear the first three albums listed above and to conclude that this is indeed neoclassical music. It is certainly true that CdAA moved away from the neoclassical genre with the albums Cirses des Champs, The Bower of Despair, and Exposition, eaux fortes et méandres. However, the argument for including them despite this change in style can be made by citing, of all things, a book on Expressionist art: Expressionism: A Revolution in German Art (Taschen 25th Anniversary Series) by Dietmar Elger (2007). Listed among the Expressionist artists we have Kandinsky. Elger defends including Kandinsky among the expressionists even though expressionism was only a transitional style for Kandinsky as he moved away from it toward a much more abstract art. drg3750 (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

All in all, what you seem to suggest is to refer to common sense to legitimate the add of this band here. Sorry I have to disagree, wikipedia doesn't function like this, especially with a controversial case like this. Common sense isn't sufficient since there's controversy. Please provide sources. No personal theories or comparisons with Kandisky. Because these are original research.(On a side note it does not require an IQ above 100 either to use sources) Don't misunderstand me I'm not particularly against the idea of including this band, I have nothing against you including it but we need sources. On a side note I find quite discourteous you deleted our previous exchanges on this issue (I restored them).Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 04:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't really care at this point whether CdAA is included in the listings or not. According to Wikipedia, the discussion page is to be used to include additional material, or material that is controversial. So let's just leave it here. As for using sources, I quite understand your reasoning. I'm all in favor of using sources, but what are the standards for someone's being a source? Just because someone writes an online review and calls CdAA a neoclassical darkwave group, does that make them a source? Many will not accept such sources. So where do you find reputable sources for an obscure French band? Incidentally, I notice that someone has added another obscure band named Deleyaman to the list recently, but nobody has asked for sources on them. Maybe I should. Maybe reputable sources should be provided for every one of the bands that have been listed. Is it because just one user has questioned the inclusion of CdAA that I need to go through this? If so, then I have a number of bands in the listing that I wish to question, and will. As for why I deleted the previous exchange, I merely was trying to clean it up, and summarize what had already been said. You are free to restore them if you wish. Certainly no offense was intended. drg3750 (talk) 18:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The band can not be "obscure". Already in 1990, CdAA was interviewed by a German music magazine. We also listened to the music from Lively Art Records. In those days, CdAA's sound was compared to the music of the Cocteau Twins. Collection d'Arnell Andréa used guitars, bass guitar and drums. --Ada Kataki (talk) 00:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Sources matter one whit to you. Otherwise you would have removed half of the artists on the list in the main article. I am challenging several of them at this time. In my judgment they are not neoclassical darkwave artists, and no sources have been provided to back any claim that they are. If you or anyone else want them returned to the list, please have them sourced! According to Wikipedia Help on sources, "Any material that is challenged, and for which no source is provided within a reasonable time (or immediately if it's about a living person), may be removed by any editor. All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable, published source." Incidentally, a good number of the bands that are listed in the main article have a regular habit of using guitars, bass guitar and drums, and incidentally, according to the main article, heavy use of percussion is a characteristic of this sub-genre.drg3750 (talk) 01:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

@Drg3750, For my part,I have no problem with the fact you removed those bands especially if there really are no sources to justify their place in this list. So if this act was supposed to be some kind of retaliation of yours, then you miss it, because I couldn't care less. Just go on, especially if there are OBJECTIVE reasons to do so. I'm ok with that. But while I find legitimate to do so, I think the reasons why you really delete them are more related to some frustration concerning CdAA's exclusion than to the objective reasons you expose. It really feels like: "Since you don't want to include my band, then I remove yours!". Anyway go on, I really don't care. If those bands don't have sources to legitimate a place, then at least we have an official reason to remove them. So why should I care finally?
Furthermore if you ask me, sources are not only needed for this list but for the entire article. Because it's full of original research Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 14:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm no longer frustrated that CdAA has not been included in the main article, although I was originally. However, my reasons for the removal of several other artists was based on your (and Ada's) criticisms. If we exclude CdAA because of lack of sources and some disagreement about their style, then any other artists that are questionable should also be excluded until sources can be provided. I completely agree with you that sources are needed for this article. Hopefully, I can contribute some.
It seems to me that a secondary list might be created on this discussion page which would contain darkwave artists that are not clearly neoclassical in style, but have some peripheral association with that genre. To that peripheral list, I would add initally, CdAA, as well as Derniere Volonté, Moon Far Away, Elane, Amber Asylum, and All My Faith Lost. Artists can be placed on this list until sources are provided that will justify their inclusion in the main article. I welcome your opinions on this idea. drg3750 (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
@ Ada Kataki, if I remember well you tend to classify CdAA as coldwave, don't you? But now you say they are compared to Cocteau Twin...But Cocteau Twin is generally associated to Dream Pop. Dream pop isn't exactly the same thing as coldwave.
Anyway I don't really have any stance concerning the type of tag to put on CdAA. But the few I've heard of them (thanks to Drg3750 and this issue) makes me think of a coldwave band...but it is possible they evolved I don't know. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 14:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

At any rate, it seems like their label prikosnovenie tends to consider them as coldwave, ethereal wave and neocclassical. http://www.prikosnovenie.com/groupes/collectionk.html.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 20:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


Dreampop is an american term. Until the middle of the 80s, the Cocteau Twins played goth rock/coldwave (french people call early goth, such as Siouxsie, as "cold wave"). Cocteau Twins, Siouxsie, Joy Divison, The Cure... they all used the same guitar sounds. deep bass guitars and moody slide guitars. ;-)
the gothic wave medley
00:00 - Siouxsie & The Banshees
00:34 - Siouxsie & The Banshees
01:21 - The Cult
01:57 - The Cult
02:25 - Sex Gang Children
03:31 - Fields of the Nephilim
04:53 - Fields of the Nephilim
05:38 - Cocteau Twins
06:34 - Calling Dead Red Roses
07:07 - The Sisters of Mercy
07:23 - Clan of Xymox
08:43 - Bauhaus
10:00 - Corpus Delicti
--Ada Kataki (talk) 00:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


Samples from The Danse Society. They used also the same guitars:
the danse society - somewhere
the danse society - the night
--Ada Kataki (talk) 01:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)