User talk:Nemonoman/Taj Mahal workarea

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(De)listing: Archive at GA/R, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

In-line referencing is spotty at best. Some sections are referenced well, some not at all. Appropriate WikiProjects and chief editors have been notified. Drewcifer 02:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Before commenting on this discussion, please ensure that the article’s talk page has been notified, with a link to this discussion. Use [[WP:GA/R#Taj Mahal|Good article review]] as the section heading.

I fail to see any single aspect of the "Good Article" criteria that this article doesn't meet and exceed. The article's FA status merits may be argued, and have been. Its GA status is more than obvious. I fail to understand even why this new review has even been requested, except to generate controversy and to give the requester, who apparently makes a habit of this, some sort of bizarre satisfaction. Such antics are the reason I have ceased to be an active WP editor. --Nemonoman 11:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought I made myself somewhat clear in the nomination: many sections of the article lack in-line citations. And yes, I suppose I have made a habit of bringing questionable articles under review: that's the whole point of the ongoing GA sweeps. Many GAs were passed before GA criteria existed, so now myself and a few other editors are checking every single GA article. I just finished sweeping the architecture GAs and found 5 (I think) articles which were worthy of further discussion. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way. Drewcifer 15:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
But once again, you assert "many section of the article lacks citations" and yet fail to say what it is in those sections that you challenge. If you want people to respond intelligently and productively to your activities here, then you're going to do more work than just "I've judged your article and found it wanting" - personally I think everyone's time would be better spent fixing the articles than arguing here. And frankly, wouldn't architecture articles be better reviewed by someone who at least knows something about, well y'know, architecture. --Joopercoopers 16:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not that I'm challenging any of the assertions made in the article or that I think someone made it up. I'm merely going by the simple premise that every paragraph (at least every section) should cite the source of its information. I could give you a list of the sections, but it would probably be easier for you to go and see for yourself. And I completely agree with you, I'd rather see an article improved rather than delisted. Hence, I posted on the Taj Mahal's talk page a few days ago bringing up my concerns. I also posted the article here while posting notices on the Architecture and India WikiProjects, as well as on the talk pages of 3 (4?) of the article's chief editors. If I truly wanted to see the article delisted I would've nominated it here without any warning. To the contrary, I've done everything in my power (outside of doing it all myself, and I admit to knowing very little about the Taj Mahal or architecture) to see the article improved and make the appropriate people aware of my concerns. Drewcifer 16:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Could you tell me where it says in policy that "every paragraph (at least every section) should cite the source of its information". You've got the wrong grip on policy if you think this is the case. WP:CITE, and WP:V says that material that is challenged should be cited with inline citations - otherwise a references section will be sufficient. The article has both a footnotes section and a references section (albeit misnamed - I've just correct it). You act imperiously here towards editors who have worked hard on articles and are rude enough to give nemonoman above a Non-apology apology in saying "Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way". What you mean is "sorry if that rubs you up the wrong way but I don't really give a toss - it's clearly your problem for being over-sensitive." 1. You admit to having no architectural knowledge. 2. You don't have any challenges to the information and so can't tell us what you think needs inline citations. 3. you misunderstand policy and the GA criteria (nowhere does it say references have to comply with MOS as you have asserted below). 4. you appear to be interested in some facile and infantile "drive" (with lollipops for reviewers who can upset enough good editors who might actually know what they are talking about)[1][2] and 5. When you're questioned about it you respond with a shrug of the shoulders and a faint insult. Furthermore it's absolutely disingenuous to say that "you've done everything in your power" and then in parenthesis say "apart from actually doing any work to the article" - how do you think that makes editors feel? Your response to criticism, is to remind us you are capable of even more crass insensitivity and imperiousness "I would've nominated it here without any warning". You're activities are starting to look like disruption. I make a modest request here - If you want to challenge material in the article - spend a little time to read it. make notes about the bits which you think might need inline citations and then post them here. ie. a bit of work on your behalf, rather than making me feel someone is lauding it over me, might just persuade me to do something about it. --Joopercoopers 17:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's drop the personal attacks and focus on the article. Either it fits the criteria or it doesn't. End of story. That's what this page is for deciding. Wrad 17:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm commenting on the behavious, not the person and there's nothing there that is a personal attack. To characterise it as such is again, disingenous and simply an attempt to shut down the debate. Again, where is it policy that every sentence/paragraph/section needs an in-line reference? It isn't policy, so he needs to provide good faith challenges, rather than parachuting in from on high pontificating about matters of style.--Joopercoopers 17:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for summarizing the problem to its relevant points. Talking about how he hands out lollipops isn't getting Taj Mahal anywhere and makes it hard to understand your position. Wrad 17:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Well, where should I start? There really isn't any need for name-calling, personal attacks, or even harsh words here. I thought the article was worthy of discussion, so I brought it up here. Please don't feel like I'm targeting you or any articles, I'm simply trying to keep up the GA standard. To reiterate my position: I'd rather see an article improved rather than delisted. But having found 5 architecture articles which I have concerns with, I can't possibly do all the work myself. You can dismiss the GA sweeps if you want, but keep in mind that many GA class articles were given that status before criteria even existed, including Taj Mahal. So, speaking of criteria, you are correct: nowhere does it say "every sentence/paragraph/section needs an in-line reference". That is merely my interpretation of (somewhat vague) GA criteria. To quote the criteria directly: "WP:WIAGA 2b: "cites reliable sources for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, preferably using inline citations for longer articles." Ok, but then there's two footnotes, one of which says "Unambiguous citation is best done through footnotes or Harvard references at the end of a sentence (see the inline citations essay). It is highly recommended that the article have a consistent style of footnoting. Articles one page or shorter can be unambiguously referenced without inline citations. General statements, mathematical equations, logical deductives, common knowledge, or other material that does not contain disputable statements need not be referenced." The way that is worded, it is highly up to interpretation. My interpretation of it is this: any complete thought that is not common knowledge must come from some source. If a fact comes from a source, you should reference that source. Every sentence/paragraph/section presents a new fact or set of facts that is not common knowledge, and should therefore reference the source of that information. Pretty simple really. That is my own interpretation of the criteria, but I don't think I am alone. I admit to being a stickler about citations, and perhaps a bit to harsh in reviewing GAs, but that's the beauty of this page: we can discuss these things in a calm logical manner. So far very little of this discussion has been calm, logical, or even about the Taj Mahal article. Drewcifer 20:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, where should I start? In a less patronising vein I think. If my tone was unpalatable please see my previous, measured attempts to direct you to policy which appeared to go unheeded.[3][4] I welcome your quest for enlightenment at the criteria page, listening is important on wiki, particularly as 40%[citation needed] of the emotionally communicative information we normally receive in face to face discourse is absent on-wiki. But you'll note the 'yawn oppose' and comments about repeating history. That popular misconceptions of policy abound on wikipedia is a breathing reality to me, but apparently news to you. Another reality is the way authors, who strive to do their best on wikipedia either get treated as vandals or trolls who need to be reminded of WP:NPA, when ARBCOM have frequently upheld the need for frank and robust debate. There are harsh words above but no personal attacks. If I sounded angry and annoyed above, then I'm glad, clearly my prose is improving, being ignored and spending inordinate time dealing with ignorance of both policy and subject is wearing and particularly irritating when policy such as WP:NPA is used to justify action with no debate. Lollipops (ie for haste) are not a good incentive for a considered encylopaedia.
To substance - I too lament the lack of discussion. The point at issue, (ie. the nomination) concerned solely the issue that In-line referencing is spotty at best. I have asked repeatedly for a challenges of what statements are challenged and would be more than welcome to discuss such in the calm and logical manner requested. Issues of one sentence paragraphs aren't part of the original nomination, but given that WP:GVF suggests A good article must be reasonably well written and Faulkner'S My mother's a fish is perhaps the best one sentence chapter I can think of; perhaps we can agree that such rules need to be discussed in the context of the article rather than blindly enforced throughout wikipedia? What is specifically wrong with the one sentence paragraphs in this article?--Joopercoopers 22:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad to see we are on the same page here: let's discuss the article. My actions (debatable or not) are only marginally important to the discussion at hand. Since the very nature of my concerns with the article are under debate here, I hesitate to expand upon them, especially since I have for all intents and purposes done so already, but here it goes anways: any section or paragraph without an in-line citation. I could give you a list, but like I've already said, it would be easier for you to just go to the article and see for yourself.
But, my interpretation is under debate; a debate which I freely initiated. The rationale behind that discussion is not to have policy explained to me, but to point out and fix a flaw in its language. As it stands, the language leaves much up to interpretation, which is what got us in this mess in the first place. My main concern is the GA standard, and that any vagueness in criteria/policy/guidelines be cleared up. I don't mind being wrong - really I don't. I am more than happy to find my interpretation unpoopular if it results in the strengthening of the GA criteria. My point in all this being: I nominated this article for review based on my own interpretation of vague criteria, criteria which I hope to improve. I would hope that two things result from my nomination of this article: 1) the article be improved in some way (whether it be in-line citations or the prose issues also mentioned), and 2) the GA criteria is strengthened in some way. My goal is not to win a debate, but to improve the encyclopedia. Drewcifer 22:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
No doubt any article, even FA class, could be subject to criticisms of "not enough in-line citations" or open to questions whether part or all was "well written". My second novel comes out Tuesday. I worked on it for more than 20 years, had 3 different editors work on it, and I still know that many parts might be better written. It's a Good book. Probably not a Great or FA class book.
So you can find things to criticize. Does that suggest that the overall nature of the article is that it can't cross the bar of Good Article. Or is it that you hope to make a point of Raising the Good Article Bar? That's how I read your comments. Not that the article isn't Good, but that you want to change the Good Article criteria -- and it involves bouncing a couple of Good Articles to prove a point. Excuse me for feeling gamed.--Nemonoman 23:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
PS You brought this action with only vague allegations that the article lacked sufficient inline citations. Yet you yourself recognized (finally) that the GA criteria doesn't require this, and only belatedly point to a Wikipedia-talk page -- not even a Policy page! -- in support of the action. Yikes.
You furthermore have taken a single criticism -- that some sentences may not be well-written -- and now attempt to use THAT as a justifcation for your action.[1]