Talk:Nebuchadrezzar II

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This article fawns over Nebu-kudurri-utsur, and seems biased.

This discussion grew too long. Older material is archived here

/Archive 1

Contents 1 About the clay tablet 2 Archiving, concluding discussion 3 Daniel paragraph 4 Pronounce 5 "Nebuchadrezzar" 6 Kudurri 7 Defender of Donkeys? 8 Citation 9 Reference 10 Son of God 11 "Villification in...the Bible..." 12 Attack on Egypt 13 A coin of Nebuchadnezzar ? 14 Introduction 15 His names meaning

[edit] About the clay tablet

The article says, "A clay tablet in the British Museum (BM34113) describes Nebuchadnezzar's behaviour during his insanity". As it sounds extremely doubtful (to put it mildly), I would like to check whether this bit of information is correct or not. Does anybody here have any knowledge about the current tablet or the whole claim I've quoted above should be considered a bright and quite believable sample of apologetic agitation? Asharidu (talk) 15:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving, concluding discussion

Alright, since the discussion descended into petty insults, I've archived it. I don't think that anything is going to come of it, anyway - 172.etc does not seem to be interested in actually creating an encyclopedia article, just about arguing his nonsense at length on talk pages. Wikipedia is not a discussion board, and all discussion here should revolve around the issue of improving the article, not expounding on untenable fringe theories on the talk page. john k 15:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Accuracy with his relationship to the Jews? I remember reading in several sources that this man almost annhilated(sp?) the entire nation of the Jews with his extreme cruelty. If this is correct, there is almost no mention of the annhilation or the method by which he conquered them.

IF YOU WANT THIS TO BE A SERIOUS ENCYCLOPEDIA YOU CAN'T SAY JERUSALEM WAS CAPTURED IN 607. 587-586 ARE THE SECULAR DATES. PTOLEMY'S CANON IS NOT THE ONLY ASTRONOMICAL EVIDENCE FOR THIS DATE. READ "THE GENTILE TIMES RECONSIDERED" 4TH ED. 607 IS A DATE FOR A RELIGIOUS ENCYCLOPEDIA SUCH AS THE JEHOVA'S WITNESS "INSIGHT".

[edit] Daniel paragraph

I started inserting some fact into that Daniel paragraph, but by the time I was done the entire change had been reverted. Since there's no sense in wasting completed work, here's the text of the paragraph as I was going to save it, should it end up being of some use to someone somehow:

"Some secular and religious scholars believe that the Book of Daniel was written long after the events described, during the second century BC, and thus are skeptical of the details of Nebuchadrezzar's portrayal by Daniel. There are people who are skeptical of the book of Daniel because of the incredibly accurate prophecies that it contains. Ptolemy Philadelphus (308-246 BC) commissioned the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into the Septuagint (a.k.a. the LXX) from Hebrew into Greek in the 3rd century BC, and Daniel is included in the LXX. However, the Septuagint contains various books that were openly written well after it was commissioned, such as 1 Maccabees through 4 Maccabees, so Daniel's inclusion means nothing of itself."66.158.232.37 00:03, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

This is not an article about the Book of Daniel, so there's no need for this level of detail. I've never heard sources outside wikipedia mention Daniel's inclusion in the Septuagint as an argument for its date being before the Maccabean period. If this is not an argument people actually make, we shouldn't talk about it anywhere, and it certainly doesn't belong in the Nebuchadrezzar article. john k 01:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, since that whole Septuagint thing was a non sequitur.66.158.232.37 15:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Good info, but you're right that it's an unnecessary aside. -- uberpenguin 22:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounce

Does anyone know /exactly/ how to pronounce Nebuchadnezzar? Many people say it different ways, but what is the /correct/ way?

It depends what language. The name is originally Akkadian, so his friends would have pronounced it Nabu-kudurri-utsur. ፈቃደ 00:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

There's a t in there?Tommstein 05:01, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I think so... though actually it's a ts, not a t... a slightly different sound but there is no one letter for it in English, so we use 2 letters - like in Tsunami... ፈቃደ 14:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I've never seen it written with the t, but who knows. That ts sound is like a German z (which might have some historical reason to do with the two z's in Nebuchadrezzar).Tommstein 07:43, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Use the IPA pronunciation key please. Xlegiofalco 13:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Nebuchadrezzar"

Nebuchadnezzar is simply an Anglicization of the Biblical Hebrew form. Nabu-kudurri-usur is the original Akkadian form. I have no idea what "Nebuchadrezzar" is supposed to be, apparently some sort of cross between the two. dab (ᛏ) 18:05, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Nebuchadrezzar is another form of his name also found in the Bible. It is more accurate, so it is used.Tommstein 03:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

(see also Talk:Babylon#Nebuchadrezzar) -- I'm afraid I dispute this. Nebuchad[nr]ezzar is an anglicization of the Hebrew, the actual Akkadian doesn't enter into it. Yes, the Hebrew variant Nebuchadnrezzar is rendered in some translations, but Nebuchadnezzar is clearly more common. This isn't about what "his mummy called him" at all: we seem to agree that a move to Nabû-kudurri-uṣur would be overkill, so the most common anglicization of the Hebrew it is, which is Nebuchadnezzar (57:31 in KJV, and 100:0 in other translations). dab (ᛏ) 15:13, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

We should probably move the conversation from the Babylon Talk page to here if we're going to discuss this much more. In any case, I just posted a reply there.Tommstein 17:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Here it is:Hiberniantears 19:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC) Nebuchadrezzar --- What is this "Nebuchadrezzar" business? Nebuchadrezzar II even has "sometimes incorrectly called Nebuchadnezzar") -- that's ridiculous. It's a clear case of "use the form most current in English". According to Google, the form with -n- is more than ten times more frequently used. It is either Nebuchadnezzar, the familiar spelling in English, based on Biblical Hebrew, or the correct Akkadian transliteration, Nabû-kudurri-uṣur. I don't see where there is any room for calling the king "Nebuchadrezzar" between these two options. dab (ᛏ) 18:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Because the Bible uses Nebuchadrezzar too. Talking about Nebuchadnezzar in an article entitled Nebuchadrezzar would just be retarded. And given that Nebuchadrezzar is closer to the man's name, the article should be named such (or, if anything, moved to Nabu-kudurri-usur, although that would probably be overkill, considering that pretty much all foreign names are referred to in the English Wikipedia under an English form). Both are used in English, but one is more correct than the other. The Bible isn't the only place where one can read about Nebuchadrezzar, in any case. This isn't the only instance of the Bible fudging people's names either. Look at the Bible calling Pharaoh Apries Hophra. Should we all just start calling him Hophra, because the Bible says so, screw all of the rest of the ancient world? Your dichotomy of having to call Nebuchadrezzar either Nebuchadnezzar or Nabu-kudurri-usur is a false one. The name Nebuchadrezzar stands on good middle ground, not quite the raw Akkadian, and not nearly as completely wrong as Nebuchadnezzar with its invented letter in there replacing a missing one.Tommstein 03:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I should note, I wrote this thinking it was the Nebuchadrezzar Talk page. But you get the hint.Tommstein 03:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

we may be splitting hairs a little bit; the article title is irrelevant, it was moved to Nebuchadrezzar, and can just as easily be moved back. It being "middle ground" is irrelevant, as long as it is not in common use. "Nabukudnusar" would be "middle ground", but it is out of the question because nobody uses it. It does seem to see some use in English, about one tenth of Nebuchadnezzar, if we're to believe google. But then point is that the name is in use in the KJV:

• Nebuchadnezzar: 57 occurrences:
  • 2Ki24:1 2Ki24:10 2Ki24:11 2Ki25:1 2Ki25:8 2Ki25:22 1Ch6:15 2Ch36:6 2Ch36:7 2Ch36:10 2Ch36:13 Ezr1:7 Ezr2:1 Ezr5:12 Ezr5:14 Ezr6:5 Ne7:6 Es2:6 Je27:6 Je27:8 Je27:20 Je28:3 Je28:11 Je28:14 Je29:1 Je29:3 Je34:1 Je39:5 Da1:1 Da1:18 Da2:1 Da2:28 Da2:46 Da3:1 Da3:2 Da3:3 Da3:5 Da3:7 Da3:9 Da3:13 Da3:14 Da3:16 Da3:19 Da3:24 Da3:26 Da3:28 Da4:1 Da4:4 Da4:18 Da4:28 Da4:31 Da4:33 Da4:34 Da4:37 Da5:2 Da5:11 Da5:18
• Nebuchadrezzar: 31 occurrences:
  • Je21:2 Je21:7 Je22:25 Je24:1 Je25:1 Je25:9 Je29:21 Je32:1 Je32:28 Je35:11 Je37:1 Je39:1 Je39:11 Je43:10 Je44:30 Je46:2 Je46:13 Je46:26 Je49:28 Je49:30 Je50:17 Je51:34 Je52:4 Je52:12 Je52:28 Je52:29 Je52:30 Ezk26:7 Ezk29:18 Ezk29:19 Ezk30:10

So, the -n- form in KJV is in Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemia, Jeremiah, Daniel while the -r- form is in Jeremiah and Ezekhiel. The Vulgate, interestingly, has -n- exclusively, Nabuchodonosor. The -r- form seems to be a variant in Hebrew (nbwkdr'zr vs. nbwkdn'zr, maybe even a scribal error, the whole difference is one little stroke). Some modern translations amend this to Nebukadnezzar throughout, take for example Je21:2:[1]. I think this shows that Nebukadnezzar is the more current variant, and should be used as article title (but I don't care enough to insist, this is simlply my detached judgement). In the article text, both variants should be given, together with Vulgate's Nabuchodonosor and LXX's Naboukhodonosor. The article certainly shouldn't claim that Nebuchandezzar is a "mistaken" spelling. dab (ᛏ) 14:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I mentioned the middle ground thing because you only presented two options, Nebuchadnezzar and Nabu-kudurri-usur, the latter of which isn't exactly in common use either. Nabukudnusar would still suffer the same problem as Nebuchadnezzar. Regarding those King James Version stats, being used over 54% as often as Nebuchadnezzar doesn't exactly make Nebuchadrezzar the forgotten orphan, even within the Bible.

What you forget, though, is that the man and his name are known from outside the Bible. I'm not even sure why we keep talking about what the Bible does or doesn't do, because his name stands without the Bible. The only thing we can get from the Bible is that maybe we should refer to his name in English as Nebuchadrezzar instead of, say, Nabukudrusar. But what someone was actually called and what they're called in the Bible are completely orthogonal issues. There are tons of cuneiform tablets from the Neo-Babylonian period, and as far as I know, not a single one of them refers to him as anything that could be converted into Nebuchadnezzar. That the Bible calls him something else in some places doesn't change what his actual name is known to have been from contemporary writings in his own language (and probably even from Greek writings, although I don't remember for sure at the moment). It's the same thing with the Pharaoh I mentioned above. Should we all start calling him something else because the Bible has a different name for him than what his name is actually known to have really been? That's my point: Nebuchadrezzar's name can be completely established from contemporary cuneiform. What anyone else referred to him as in their own religious books doesn't change what the man's name actually was. In lieu of going around referring to Nabu-kudurri-usur, we should take the standard English version that is as close to his actual name as possible. Now, if the name Nebuchadrezzar didn't exist, the options would truly be either Nebuchadnezzar or Nabu-kudurri-usur, and I would probably agree with using Nebuchadnezzar. Or even if the name Nebuchadrezzar existed in the Bible, but we didn't know from external sources what his real name actually was. But neither of those is the case, we actually have a standard English version that can be established to be somewhat close, at least closer than the other standard English version.Tommstein 17:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Wiki policy is to go with the form used most often in English, no matter what it is in his own language or any other language; and that is demonstrably "Nebuchadnezzar". Of course neither one matters to me a whole lot anyway. (I could be way off, but I vaguely seem to recall seeing somewhere the form with -n-, instead of -r-, incorporates some sort of "under-the-breath"-like resemblance to an insult in Hebrew, since he was particularly hated by Jews for destroying Jerusalem and leading them to the Babylonian captivity.) ፈቃደ 18:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Even when there are two perfectly-good accepted versions, and one is demonstrably more correct than the other? This is probably why some people criticize Wikipedia for being more concerned about being a democracy than being right.Tommstein 19:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not forgetting that he is known from outside the bible at all. However, that has nothing to do with "Nebuchadrezzar" at all, which is a Hebrew variant, as anglicized in English Bible translations (mind that Jerome has Nabuchodonosor, so Nebuchad[rn]ezzar is already Anglo-centric, and not generically "biblical"). If you want to argue that we should take an "outside the Bible" approach, we really have no option but the (undisputedly correct) Nabû-kudurri-uṣur. I wouldn't object to a move there, and an intro

Nabû-kudurri-uṣur II (also known as Nebuchadnezzar or Nebuchadrezzar)...

Compare, for example Amenophis who used to be referred to in the Greek form in English, but now the Egyptian Amenhotep has gained enough currency for us to have his article there. dab (ᛏ) 09:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm kinda seeing what you mean. I still prefer Nebuchadrezzar, but I'm getting you. The thing is, I'm not advocating going strictly outside the Bible, as I've mentioned, because then we would have to call him Nabu-kudurri-usur (not that I would necessarily object to that either). I'm more advocating taking a 'choose a preexisting accepted English version based on knowledge of what the name actually was' path. It's not always one way or the other, it's allowable in life to combine two different sets of knowledge. But as I said, I'm seeing your point more, even if I do still prefer Nebuchadrezzar myself, as it is an accepted English version and it is also more correct. I think that an encyclopedia is a formal and academic enough of a place to go with a more-correct standard version even if it is less-used. Mainly since the difference is so minor, relatively widespread, and comes from the same book, since it occurs to me that I wouldn't advocate Nergal-shar-ezer over Neriglissar or Nabuna'id over Nabonidus, even if those forms are more correct.Tommstein 16:49, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

yes, but with "named after Nebuchadrezzar" you have definitely crossed a line now. Because, every single thing "named after Nebuchadrezzar" is actually called Nebuchadnezzar. Maybe this is a hint that the most commonly used form in English is, after all, by a long way, Nebuchadnezzar. Of course this is due to the Bible, but that doesn't change the fact. I think I get your point, too (that's why I'm not in an edit war with you), but in my view, we have three options:

1. Nebuchadnezzar, by virtue of being the most common form in English (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English))
2. Nabu-kudurri-usur, the hardcore academic Assyriological way. I would actually endorse this, but I am sure that if you and me agree on this, there will be no end of other people calling for a return to the biblical form.
3. Nabuchodonosor (as in the Catholic Encyclopedia), the actual Biblical form

Nebuchadrezzar is, you will note, not on my list. dab (ᛏ) 18:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I myself said that changing the name in that section didn't seem to fit, and was solely for uniformity reasons. Imagine what it would be like if we changed the article to Nabu-kudurri-usur. But regardless of whether the names have Nebuchadnezzar or Nebuchadrezzar, the section title is still referring to the man they were named after, not any specific version of his name; obviously, the people doing the namings chose the Nebuchadnezzar form of the man's name. But if the article were changed to, say, Nabu-kudurri-usur, I would imagine that the section title would also have Nabu-kudurri-usur.

Is Nabuchodonosor the actual Biblical form? That doesn't really look like Hebrew to me. Actually, the article says the Hebrew form is, uh, something that I can't seem to paste here, but which is clearly not that. The same thing has occurred to me about changing the article to Nabu-kudurri-usur: even if we decided to do so, it wouldn't last there very long. I would probably prefer Nebuchadnezzar before Nabu-kudurri-usur anyway. I know you don't like Nebuchadrezzar, but that wasn't really breaking news.Tommstein 18:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

no, no, Nabuchodonosor is the form of the Vulgate (and of LXX, modulo transliteration) -- which is why it is the lemma's title in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Hell, we can leave it at Nebuchadrezzar -- I think we agree on all particulars, and it's a matter of taste anyhoo. Maybe ask for other opinions or do a straw poll. No big deal, either way. dab (ᛏ) 19:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think it's a big deal either way any more either. Suffice it to say that if the article was moved by someone to Nebuchadnezzar I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care, even if it's not my personal preference (not that no one else that watches the page would object; kind of the same reason we couldn't move it to Nabu-kudurri-usur even if we wanted to). You got me thinking about these issues more than I had previously, for which I thank you.Tommstein 20:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I prefer Nebuchadrezzar as a compromise between the more familiar (but inaccurate) Nebuchadnezzar, and the more accurate (but less familiar) Nabu-kudurri-usur. "Nebuchadrezzar" is a name which is found in the Bible, which is used by some modern scholars, which is a reasonably accurate phonetic facsimile of the Akkadian, and which is similar enough to the familiar "Nebuchadnezzar" as not to cause any real confusion. Note that our articles on certain Aztec emperors are at Moctezuma I and Moctezuma II, rather than the more familiar Montezuma or the more accurate Motecuhzoma. This seems an analogous case. john k 20:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, coincidentally, I once looked up Montezuma here for no specific reason, and encountered this that you speak of, although, not knowing squat about him, I just assumed I had misspelled it. But yes, your argument is basically mine, verbatim. I can see the other side better now, but that's still my personal story too.Tommstein 20:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I just visited this page, and I'm going to create a short section for the discussion of his name. It seems a bit in depth and it may not be important enough for casual readers to have it placed in the introduction. Carl.bunderson 03:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kudurri

The page seems to have lost the translation of kudurri as boundary-stone. That is what I have usually seen this translated as, as well as "heir" (as in, "Nebo, protect the heir"), which is also not in the article. Was this on purpose, or should it be reinserted?Tommstein 16:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

boundary-stone was replaced by CE's "landmark" which means precisely the same thing. CE is hopelessly outdated, of course, and I don't know if "crown" is still considered an option. Maybe we should leave the subtleties to the kudurru article, since we have it. dab (ᛏ) 18:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Leaving it to the Kudurru article seems to make the most sense, since there's no reason in having whatever work is done there in two places, considering the ease of clicking on a link and reading all about the word. Maybe we could change this article to say it means something like "Nebo, protect the kudurru," while making kudurru a link to the Kudurru article.Tommstein 19:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Defender of Donkeys?

"The Hebrew Nebuchadnezzar may reflect an Akkadian Nabû-kidin-uṣur, or "O Nebo, defend the donkey"."

Can we have a citation on this? Thanks, Kel-nage 19:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

sheesh, this is just vandalism, simply revert it. dab (ᛏ) 07:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

or maybe it was serious? Hard to tell, just remove it until sources are cited. dab (ᛏ) 08:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

I didn't know how to put a citation in so maybe someone will want to touch that up.

[edit] Reference

I was thinking the Black Crows song, Nebakanezer, should be added to the references section. I would add it myself, but this article seems to be restricted.

[edit] Son of God

The statement "They are protected by an angel or "the Son of God" [Daniel 3:25, KJV] (interpreted to be the second member of the Godhead which is God the Son, later known as Jesus Christ)," specifically the parenthetic portion, does not belong in this article. It is theologically and exegetically biased; it might, in a qualified form, belong in an article on the book of Daniel, or on Jesus Christ. It undoubtedly goes without saying that the interpretation mentioned is a Christian one; what is not clear is that the view is by no means unanimous among Christians. One need look no further than the Revised Standard Version (RSV), a widely regarded and distinctly Christian translation. In the text in question, the RSV reads, ". . . the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods." (Incidentally, "second person of the Godhead," as in the main article, is a prejudicially Christian and theologically inaccurate expression; the more accurste form is "second person of the Trinity." "Godhead" is a 1611 way of saying "God-hood"--the quality of being God.Opaanderson 14:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Villification in...the Bible..."

Actually, he is referred to by Daniel as "this head of gold," and "greatest of kingdoms," in a dream of statedly Divine origin (rather than flattering him, which according to the book The God never does), and implies that, far from the villain, he was in the eyes of such Divinity the greatest of all mortal kings of human history (despite references to Alexander in nearby passages). Likewise, it is stated by Yirma'yahu (Jeremiah) that The God had given the entirety of Mesopotamian civilization (most of the known civilized world, therefore) over to the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, and that Babylon would rule as long as he remained alive, words which, if the account to be taken as historically accurate, the Jews threatened to scourge Jeremiah for saying, before it turned out to be right. The line about villification in the Bible is therefore an extreme disreading of the text. --Chr.K. 02:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attack on Egypt

Did Nebuchadrezzar attack Egypt by the sea? There was some information about this that I heared. Does anyone know something more about this?

[edit] A coin of Nebuchadnezzar ?

In the article there is a picture of a coin with the caption "A coin that might depict Nebuchadrezzar II.

To date no Babylonian coins were found, which suggests that Babylon didn't mint any coins. No such an ancient coin as depicted exists. At the best this might be a modern coin or a token, depicting someone’s imagination on how he might have looked, inscribed with Nebuchadnezzar’s name in cuneiform script. Whoever posted it or knows more about it, please correct the caption accordingly. Itzse 18:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I also noted this mistake. It is in fact a very small stone relief found on an ancient statue of god Marduk in the Italian museum of Florence. Egyptzo 18:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying and correcting it. Now is there anybody who can read for us the cuneiform script around the portrait? What does the museum say it says? Itzse 21:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone please volunteer to check it out in the museum? Or can anyone call them and find out? Thanks. Itzse (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The opening section says he is "not famous for...", surely this should be "famous for..."? Popher 22:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His names meaning

Stancer: "Name" I added that his name translates as "Oh Nabu, preserve/defend my firstborn son." rather than "preserve my border stone". I read about this in two books yet, as far as i could make it out the German wikipedia entry also agrees. Could someone verify or falsify it please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.210.173.132 (talk) 20:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)