Talk:Neapolitan language

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Classification of central italy dialects as "Neapolitan"

I don't think the phrase:

as well as throughout most of southern Italy including the Gaeta and Sora districts of southern Lazio, the southern part of Ascoli province in Marche, most of Abruzzo, Molise, Basilicata, northern Calabria, and northern and central Apulia.

is completely correct.

I'm not a linguist, but i'm italian, and i live in central italy; some parts of above cathegorisation seem to me not completely correct.

In Gaeta and Sora, although spoken language being different from "Napoli's neapolitan", i can agree that "Neapolitan" is an enough good classification. I guess the same holds, at least to some extent, looking at Molise and Basilicata. Situation of Calabria is well explained below so i won't spend more words upon.

What i really do not understand is classifying as "Neapolitan" the italian dialects spoken in Apulia, Abruzzo and most of all Marche. Believe me, dialect of Marche has very little in common with Neapolitan... i guess also that most people from that region would "jump on their chairs" reading such a thing. The same holds about Abruzzo, where we should distinguish among at least 3 different families of dialects - see for reference http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IT , looking at "Italian" section. About Apulia, i honestly don't know whether to classify it as a Neapolitan derivative or a dialect of his own, but i think this deserves at least some serious discussion.


LINGUISTIC DEMARCATIONS

which forum? if it is the yahoo one run by carmine then yes, if not then no. so then how do we classify these languages? do we make a separate classification for northern calabrese? I am not a linguist so i don't know. The problem is there is no official language standard. there are differences between napulitano and n. calbrese too, just as there are differences in salerno napulitano, amalfi napulitano.....

you make good points and comparisons though. --espo111 05:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


Hi Frank,

Are you the same Frank I've spoken to in the 'O Nnapolitano forum? Ciao cumpà! The problem with Calabria is that it is a region. The dialects of Calabria are so different from each other (in a direction from north to south) that you cannot group all of the dialects of Calabria as a single language. Cultural differences cannot be used to group languages, because you can look at Canada and the United States, as an example. For the most part, both countries speak the English language, although both countries are very different culturally, and even widening this idea, add in the U.K., Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand. Yes, subtle differences exist between these countries, but they are for the most part based on accents, or idiomatic. Even the cultural differences among the English speaking nations do not result in each country having a 'different' language.

Comparing Spanish and Catalan can be another example of cultural differences. However, the two languages are different because of historical reasons, and above all else, they are separated because of the lexicon, syntax, vocabulary, sentence structure, and so many other reasons.

Which leads me to my last argument about the Calabrian dialects. Again, clearly, if you look at the Sicilian or Neapolitan language groups, you can take a look at the lexicon, syntax, look at the personal pronouns, the adverbs, the prepositions, the intonation, and notice the stark contrasts. Then take the Calabrian dialects, and notice they cannot be grouped together as one. The southern ones belong to the Sicilian group, the northern ones belong to the Neapolitan group. These are not ideas of fantasy, I have provided many documents to support this already widely held theory on the linguistic classifications of Italo-Romance.

But in closing, just by analyzing the information on this main page of the Neapolitan language, you will see how the Calabrian dialects are not related to each other, and cannot be grouped linguistically or even culturally. Like Sicily, Southern Calabria has had a far different history than northern Calabria or Naples, especially when it comes to influence by the Arab and Middle Eastern peoples.

N.C. Northern Calabrian (Neapolitan) ------------------- S.C. Southern Calabrian (Sicilian)

Patre nuorru chi sta ntru cielu ------------------- Tata nostru chi' sini nt'o celu,

    *contrast N.C. patre with S.C. tata (Sicilianesque word)
    *notice the grammatical difference N.C. sta (stare) versus S.C> sini (essere, sei, Italian)
    *notice the pure use of S.C. celu (as one sees in Sicilian, from celum) versus the dipthongized form of N.C. cielu

chi sia santificatu u nume tuoio ------------------- ù si tena pe' santu u noma toi

    *now look at the possessive adjectives... N.C. tuoio (with the dipthong like Italian tuo)
    *S.C. toi, no dipthong like the standard Sicilian vowel system

venisse u riegnu tuoio ------------------- ù vena u rregnu toi,

    *again, the dipthongization - N.C. riegnu  versus S.C. rregnu (Latin regnum), also tuoio/toi

se facisse a vuluntà tuoia ------------------- ù si facia a voluntà

sia ntru cielu ca nterra. ------------------- com'esta nt'o celu, u stessa sup'a terra.

Ranne oje u pane nuorro e tutti i juorni ------------------- Dùnandi ped oja u pana nostru e tutti i juorna

     *N.C. danne (dare + ne = Italian dacci "give us") vs. dùnandi (dunari + ndi)
     *the use of nni (ndi) is customary use of Sicilian, in contrast to Italian ci 'us'
     *while both N.C. and S.C. use the forms nne/ndi here, the verb forms of dare/dunari are totally different
     *N.C. i juorni vs. S.C. i juorna (in Sicilian many masculine plural verbs end with a, lu libbru, li libbra)
     *typical of Latin neuter declensions, something you don't find in Italian or Neapolitan/N. Calabrian

perdunacce i rebita nuorri ------------------- e' pardùnandi i debiti

     *as in my previous point, I question the fluctuating uses of cce/ndi for 'us'
     *prior, there is danne/dùnandi, but now here perdunacce/pardùnandi
     *this fluctuating use shows that N.C. is on the edge linguistically
     *or the on-line transcriber to this prayer made a mistake in the usage
     *regardless, again, this shows the huge differencs, between Northern and Southern Calabrese

cumu nue perdunammu i rebituri nuorri ------------------- comu nù nc'i perdunamu ad i debituri nostri

Un ce mannare ntra tentazione ------------------- On nci dassara nt'a tentazioni

ma liberacce e ru male ------------------- ma liberandi d'o mala

     *again, here N.C. uses the Italian/Neapolitan form "liberacce" while S.C. uses the Sicilian form of "liberandi"

In closing, it is very clear to see that there are several differences between the northern and southern Calabrese dialects, differences so large that all published linguists combines the two different dialects into either the Neapolitan or Sicilian language groups. To say that there would be a single Calabrian language because of cultural similarities would be like saying New England should have their own separate language as well as southern Californian, as the histories, ethnicities, and cultural characteristics are totally different in those two regions. And comparing Catalan and Spanish is the same as comparing French and Spanish, they are all different languages regardless of culture! It is the historical development of the language, the philology, the evolution, the syntax, the grammar, the lexicon, and so forth. It is like comparing apples and oranges when one tries to analyze Spanish/Catalan, as being in the same linguistic position as Calabrese/Italian. Again, I have no problems with the Calabrese dialects, but they are what they are. One cannot dispute the fact that they share enough different grammatical and vocabular characteristics that they do not constitute a single language, but rather two different dialects of the same region. I urge you to investigate these classifications, either via Ethnologue, in printed material, or through the weblinks I have posted below. Linguistics is a science, and the dialectologists in Italy have analyzed and studied these issues for well over a century, and the consistent conclusion is that the 'southern' Calabrian dialect is part of the Sicilian/Extreme Southern language group, while the 'northern' Calabrian dialect is part of the Neapolitan/Intermediate Southern language group. While you raised an excellent point based on a cultural aspect, one has to accept these findings based on the scientific research. Calabria has always been bifurcated north-south not only in terms of language, but also history, hence the south is an extension of Sicily, and the north an extension of Naples. Even culturally-historically, Calabria can be divided, and this strenghtens the idea that as a result of different invaders and influences, the dialects are so divergent, and classified into separate language groups. --VingenzoTM 19:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)


---The point of the differentiating Neapolitan from Calabrese is to demonstrate that although linguistically similar, both languages have cultural and literary differences. This article should not be based solely on Philological and Linguistic similarities, but rather a distinction of particulars, that is what makes them different. Would one classify Spanish and Catalan as the same? My answer would be no, and I believe the same classification distinction should be applied here.

sign posts like this --->--espo111 23:08, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC) (second from last button ^^^)


To the site administrator,

I disagree with the references toward Calabrese being considered a distinct language. As a student of Romance Philology and Linguistics, there is no significant proof that Calabrese is a unified language. One only has to look at the examples provided on this page that southern Calabrese (resembling Sicilian) is far different than northern Calabrese (closer to Neapolitan).


Instead, Calabria is a region in southern Italy, yes, but it does not necessarily equate being a language as well. The historical information shows that much of southern Calabria was influenced in the same ways as Sicily, while northern Calabria has more in common with greater Naples. Calabria was part of the Two Sicilies, with Sicily (the island), and greater Naples the bifurcated hubs of the former kingdom.

Linguistically speaking, the region of Calabria can be divided north to south in terms of its various dialects. Even the northernmost province of Cosenza is divided between Sicilian and Neapolitan. The other four southern provinces all contribute to the Sicilian dialect group. It is no surprise, that the southern Calabrian dialects are virtually identical to the Messinese dialect of Sicily, and the Salentine dialect in peninsular Puglia. The northern Calabrian dialect is very similar to those of Lucano, Campania, and greater Naples.

For these reasons, the dialects of the region of Calabria cannot be grouped together as contributors to a single, consistent language. Instead, southern dialects make up the language of what some call "Extreme Meredional" (or simply "Sicilian"), while the northern dialects make up the language of what some call "Intermediate Meredional" (or simply "Neapolitan"). Again, these reasons are geographical, historical, and aboveall, linguistic.

If one visits Ethnologue, they will at times see a bifurcated grouping of "Neapolitan-Calabrian" but this is not exactly correct. This is done because northern Calabrian is very similar to (and joins) the many dialects of the Neapolitan group, BUT some argue that Calabrian should retain its own identity, at least in name sake. Unfortunately, linguistics is a science, and Calabria is a region with very different dialects. One cannot simply speak of a "Calabrian" language when the region's dialects are so different. Again, region does not always equal dialect.

I leave you with the following links on the various languages of Italy, including maps and the official Ethnologue linguistic classifications:

http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/mappe/mappe/f_dialetti.htm Interactive map of Italy with the linguistic classifications, researched in the 1920s and most recently revisited in 1977 with the publication of the "Carta dei dialetti." See here that southern Calabrian is classified in the group of extreme southern dialects, referred to as 'Sicilian', while northern Calabrese is classified in the intermediate southern group of dialects, referred to as 'Neapolitan.'

http://www.calabriadna.com Compare the above map of linguistic/dialectal boundaries to that of the provinces of Calabria.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nap Neapolitan-Calabrese group of dialects - which again is not accurate. There is no hybrid Calabrese dialect, instead the 'region' of Calabria is made up of several 'dialects' which pertain to two different language groups, "Neapolitan" and "Sicilian."

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=scn The Sicilian group of dialects. Pay attention that this group is sometimes called "Sicilian-Calabrese" but this, like the "Neapolitan-Calabrese" category is inaccurate. Unfortunately, the region of Calabria is geographically between two larger linguistic groups, and because the Calabrese dialects are so divergent from each other, there is no universial Calabrese language, and therefore it is bifurcated into the other two larger groups of Sicilian and Neapolitan. Even in the peninsular portion of the region of Puglia, that dialect "Salentine" is also part of the Sicilian group, while northern Pugliese is considered a dialect of Italian, according to Ethnologue. But linguistically speaking, this is also incorrect, as you saw with the first weblink (map) above. The reasons for considering northern Pugliese as Italian instead of Neapolitan are of political reasons, and ignorance.

http://www.linguasiciliana.org/articuli_file/puglisi.HTM Finally, here is an essay on the Italian 'languages' or 'dialects.' This essay was written by a Calabrese linguist who regularly participates in a Sicilian language organization. Written in Sicilian, this Calabrese discusses how and why the languages of Italy are classified as such, and also includes much information on his home region of Calabria and why for many different reasons is divided into two different linguistic classifications, none of which are centered around the region of Calabria. He also writes of the different Pugliese dialects, the southern being part of Sicilian, and the northern being part of the Neapolitan group, and not the Italian group as erroneously printed in Ethnologue.

I have no qualms against the people or region of Calabria. Its various dialects are enchanting and bold, but as a researcher, I cannot help but argue against the classification of Calabrese as a single Romance language. All of the evidence points against this idea. I hope that I may have enlightened some of you, and cleared up any previous misconceptions about this topic. I would ask that the administrators remove any information pertaining to a "Calabrian" language. Rather to reiterate, northern Calabrese is a Neapolitan dialect, while southern Calabrese is a Sicilian dialect. Also, the example of the "Lord's Prayer" in southern Calabro should either be removed, or highlighted only for comparison purposes, as the Ethnologue organization clearly states that this dialect is part of the Sicilian linguistic group.

I Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

I may be reached at VingenzoTM@yahoo.com for further questions

User:VingenzoTM

Contents

[edit] Refinement of stats needed

The number of speakers cited in the article is for the Napoletano-Calabrese group as a whole. What is the number of speakers for straight up Neapolitan? There are around 1,100,000 inhabitants of the city proper with another million in the immediately girding communities (2001 census). In terms of number of speakers, at what point does the dialectical continuum flow so far out as to lose its Neapolitan-ness as such? E. abu Filumena


[edit] Addition of Latin and Greek "Our Father"s

So, I can see why the Latin might be illustrative, but the untransliterated Greek? Admittedly, Naples was a Greek-speaking city up to the 800's (or so) but... I also changed the headings back from the Latin(?), that seemed like a particularly peculiar choice. There is also no need to wikify things multiple times (those terms had been linked earlier in the page). E. abu Filumena 06:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] addition of southern Calabrian and removal of ancient Greek (the Lord's Prayer)

Since most discussions here involve the big differences between the regional languages of southern Italy (and that one cannot speak of "one" Calabrian variant), it seems useful to include the southern Calabrian variant of the Lord's Prayer too. Thus I've readded this text (half a year ago someone removed it for no apparent reason).

Moreover, since the Greek version does not add extra information (and might just confuse), I've removed it. If anyone can give me clear reason, it would be OK to readd it.

--JorisvS 16:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Well...it is the original version from which all others were translated. That's a pretty good reason, I feel. Also many words of Nnapulitano came directly from greek. It is useful for orthographic, translatory, and lexical comparisons. I would readd.--Josh Rocchio 06:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

For comparison, check out la:lingua neapolitana. I'm not hell bent on the readdition, but I think with a quick sentence or two in the main page about the historical significance, and about how since Naples was definitely a greek colony and naturally its language reflects such, it would be useful to the article. About the comment above by E. abu Filumena, I don't think the lack of transliteration is egregious. To whom it is legible it will be appreciated, to whom it isn't it may be inspiratory.


Maybe, I can read the Greek alphabet, that is not my problem. First of all not all the text showed up correctly on my browser (weird, since it shows Chinese, Japanse, Hindi, a.s.f.). Secondly what did show up correctly wasn't inspiratory, since I couldn't see any connection with the Neapolitan words. But if you want to readd it, I won't stop you, but please make it appear nicely on the Internet browser (with the spiritus asper and other accents showing up, like I show below). Moreover if you do, it might be good idea to split the table into two halves, so its width won't be too large (by placing the last three columns under the first three).

Note: the sentence on Ancient Greek DOES show up correctly (here it no longer does): Ὃτι μὲν ὑμεῖς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πεπόνθατε ὑπὸ τῶν ἐμῶν κατηγόρων, οὐκ οἶδα: ἐγὼ δ' οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς ὑπ' αὐτῶν ὀλίγου ἐμαυτοῦ ἐπελαθόμην, οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον. καίτοι ἀληθές γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν εἰρήκασιν.
I notice now, that in pasting this here, it no longer shows up correctly, with a modification it shows up correctly again:
Ὃτι μὲν ὑμεῖς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, πεπόνθατε ὑπὸ τῶν ἐμῶν κατηγόρων, οὐκ οἶδα: ἐγὼ δ' οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς ὑπ' αὐτῶν ὀλίγου ἐμαυτοῦ ἐπελαθόμην, οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον. καίτοι ἀληθές γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν εἰρήκασιν.
--JorisvS 14:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neapolitan is spoken in Campania and Northern Calabria only

See Ethnologue entry for nap for details [1].

[edit] Meridionale intermedio = Neapolitan? Just ridiculous

Excuse me, I'm Italian, and the concept of Napoletano provided here just makes me laugh. I really don't see any reason for this confusion between Neapolitan and the group of dialects of southern Italy (meridionale interno or intermedio) among which Neapolitan is just the major one.
Differences are so plain to us Italians, that our Wikipedia says: «It is spoken in Campania, specifically in the city of Naples, and in general influences southern dialects, especially in Apulia, Basilicata and Southern Latium».
No mention of central dialects, of course. I'm from Ascoli Province and know for sure how distant my dialect and Neapolitan are. There are so many differences that, when I went to Apulia, my accent was mistaken for Romanesco. --Llayumri 07:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vedé

The article says: vedé (to see)

What tense is it? Present indicative 3rd singular? Why the accent, then? (see conjugation at Verbix)

Please be gentle, i'm not a big expert in Italian. Thanks in advance for your answer. --Amir E. Aharoni 11:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a little misunderstanding: vedé is Neapolitan, not Italian. :) --Llayumri 14:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Now you totally confused me. I thought that the Neapolitan form is supposed to be "veré". Or is it written vedé and pronounced veré? And in any case, what tense is it in Neapolitan? --Amir E. Aharoni 14:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It is the present infinitive (It. vedere, Engl. to see). I don't think Neapolitan has strict spelling or pronounciation rules, despite its literary tradition. Italian Wikipedia says rhotacism is "frequent". They probably use both forms, at least in spoken language. Anyway, I'm quite sure that writers prefer the -d- form: "senz' essere scetato, / senza sentì e vedé" (Di Giacomo). --Llayumri 18:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rhotacism

Is this really rhotacism or flapping? Is the sound /r/ (the "Italian" "r") or /ɾ/ (the pronunciation of intervocalic "d" and "t" in some American accents that makes "metal" and "medal" homophones)? I am not at all familiar with Neapolitan, but it sounds like this might be flapping rather than true rhotacism. — Paul G 12:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's stronger than that. It's an odd case in Neapolitan, traditionally, many of the words are written with "d"s but are pronounced as if they were "r"s. The effect is strong enough that most native speakers who are unfamiliar with traditional literary Neapolitan write them straight away with "r"s, like "ra" for "d''a".-E. abu Filumena 02:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)