Talk:Nazi Party

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Contents 1 Exact year swastika has been included in the party propaganda? 2 Workers Party? 3 Hitler images 4 NSDAP in Austria 5 march 1933 election 6 "support of the majority of Germans" 7 Proposed move to Nazi Party 8 Requested move, 2007 8.1 Survey 8.2 Survey pt. 2 8.3 Discussion 8.4 Conclusion 9 Rudolf Höß and SS Ranks 10 Perhaps lacking balance? 11 What percentage of the population were members? 12 The Italian Fascist Party page has a political party template for it, this page should too 13 The National Socialist German Workers Party. 14 Fair use rationale for Image:PICT4170x.JPG 15 "support of the majority of Germans" 16 555th, not 55th member. 17 A proposal 18 Name of article 18.1 Roll call 19 Redundant Sentence

[edit] Exact year swastika has been included in the party propaganda?

The article seems to imply that the inclusion of the swastika symbol in the party propaganda occurred sometime between 1920 and 1925. Is a more precise date available?

[edit] Workers Party?

Who translated that from german? I'm realy convinced that it should be translated to "National Socialist Labor Party of Germany" or "National-Socialistic German Labor Party". This (my opinion) is based on the meaning in Arbeiterpartei and (...)sozialistische which does not primarily mean "Party for Workers." Its intent is to suggest "Party for Work".

• Please sign your comments.
• National Socialist German Workers Party is the usual translation. My German is not very good but I think Labor Party is usually translated as Arbeitspartei. Adam 03:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"Workers Party" is also the more literal translation - "Arbeiterpartei" means "Partei der Arbeiter", meaning either a party "von Arbeitern" or "für Arbeiter". Labour might be admissable as the more common English term, though literally it would mean "Arbeitspartei" (party of the labour) in German. But since "Workers Party" is the common term it should be used here. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 14:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

25 years ago, when I took German in college, it was translated as "workers party." It was also spelled something like NationalSozialistischeDeutscheArbeiterpartei (no spaces between words) which is quite common in the German language. I can't recall if the first letter of each word was capitalized.CyranoDeWikipedia 23:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

no, it's not common!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.238.83 (talk) 12:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The "Labor Party of Germany" thing is I'm afraid a not-too-subtle rehash of a popular revisionist claim that the Nazis were nothing more than Communists themselves and that the whole Nazi period and it's crimes can therefore be attributed to the bogey of the left, a theory we get cranked out fairly endlessly on this and many other Nazi-period pages on Wikipedia and which is utter drivel. Wearily we have to say yet again that a very considerable majority of academics who have closely studied this subject concur that the most appropriate translation is the one we have as the title of this article. Also shortened to "Nazi". Thank you. MarkThomas 19:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler images

I have now copied two images from the Adolf Hitler article and they have both been deleted as copyvios. How can photos be within the guidelines at one article and outside them at another? Adam 06:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't quote me on this, but I think the concept is called "fair-use." It allows for the use of copyrighted images in articles dealing with the subject of the images in question, as long as they don't harm the images' commercial viability and are of the lowest quality possible. The use of a fair-use image on one article might be a copyvio on another because there's little justification for its use. However, you'd best be served by asking someone with a more thorough knowledge of copyright law. --Impaciente 00:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NSDAP in Austria

This article at this point only focuses of NSDAP in Germany. A separate chapter on pre-unification NSDAP in Austria can be written at National Socialist German Workers Party/temp-Austria. I myself is not an expert on this issue. --Soman 14:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] march 1933 election

The article makes no mention of German election, 1933 but does mention many of the previous elections. Given that this election was the last election before the Hitler dictatorship, I think it deserves a mention, but I don't know where to put it in. I'll just make this note here -- Ch'marr 03:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "support of the majority of Germans"

May I ask what is the source of this statement ? I agree that many Germans supported the party, but you need country-wide polls and sociological research to state "majority". If such research was conducted, would anyone provide the source ? Or wouldn't it be better to say "support of many Germans" ? 213.247.163.6 23:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

When you become a registered Wikipedian I will be happy to debate this question with you. Adam 03:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

cool debates

Well I am a registered wikipedian, and I would say that this party did not have the support of Jewish Germans, Gay Germans, German Jehovah's Whitenesses, Socialist Germans, disabled Germans...shall I go on. So can we see this sociological study that suggest the "majority" of Germans supported this party. As I recall the election in which Hitler took power saw only a minority of Germans voting. Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to suggest that Nazi power came from a minority of Germans and ya for revisionist history and all that. I am only suggesting that Hitlers party came to power with one group of Germans scapegoating another group of Germans. A large and non-unified group that included the Germans I mentions earlier. So, where are the stats that prove this logic wrong?

And of course my dumb ass forgot to sing my above postDkriegls 07:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The NSDAP won less than 44% of the vote, and never more in a fair election. So "majority" is purely a guess as there was no fair election in which they won a majority of votes. --DerRichter (talk) 08:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move to Nazi Party

When creating links to this article, I have always been bothered by the excessive length of the article name. Most people prefer to link to the redirect Nazi Party than to point to this article directly; I've often corrected their links in order to avoid the redirect, but I have come to wonder if it is really worth it. Most wikipedia article titles follow the convention of using the most popular name for a country or political organization, even if it is not the full official name. Thus we have a main article called Nazi Germany rather than Great German Reich; we have Soviet Union rather than Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; we have North Korea instead of Democratic People's Republic of Korea; we have Conservative Party (UK) rather than Conservative and Unionist Party (UK); and so on. Following the same principle, I propose to move the content of this article to Nazi Party. -- Nikodemos 22:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Totally disagree. "nazi" is a term not of their creation, and is used less frequetly by Germans. In the case of "north korea" I would likewise like to see North Korea become a redirect to the proper name as well. user:Pzg Ratzinger

Unfortunately, that is not normal practice on wikipedia. When deciding on the name of an article, we do not use "official" names but rather the most common names. "Nazi Party" has 1,350,000 Google hits,[1] while "National Socialist German Workers Party" has only 90,800 hits.[2] That's a ratio of almost 15:1 in favor of "Nazi Party". Clearly, the term "Nazi Party" is by far the most common. -- Nikodemos 01:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I know this has been discussed and debated to death, but I'd support a move request. The last debate was quite a while ago and was essentially derailed by an awful lot of invalid reasons to leave it here, without regard for common English usage. Kafziel ^Talk 19:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I am considering being bold and doing a unilateral move; policy is very clear on this subject, and there seems to be little interest in discussion. -- Nikodemos 04:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that you open official move request, since this move was already discussed and rejected. -- Vision Thing -- 09:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Vision Thing. Better to get consensus for it (or against it, if it comes to that) than just move it and risk being reverted tomorrow. Kafziel ^Talk 13:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have officially proposed the move and summarized my arguments below. -- Nikodemos 07:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Read Robert Gellatey - "Backing Hitler"

[edit] Requested move, 2007

National Socialist German Workers Party → Nazi Party — As it currently stands, the name of this article clearly disregards Wikipedia:Naming conventions. The policy in a nutshell states that "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." The majority of English speakers overwhelmingly use the term "Nazi Party". "Nazi Party" has 1,350,000 Google hits,[3] while "National Socialist German Workers Party" has only 90,800 hits.[4] That's a ratio of almost 15:1 in favor of "Nazi Party". In other articles, we have already established the fact that political parties and entities do not need to be listed using their full official names, especially when those names are very long. For example, we have a main article called Nazi Germany rather than Great German Reich; we have Soviet Union rather than Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; we have North Korea instead of Democratic People's Republic of Korea; we have Conservative Party (UK) rather than Conservative and Unionist Party (UK); and so on. The sheer length of the name "National Socialist German Workers Party" is probably the reason why most English speakers prefer to use a shorthand. It also means that linking to this article is certainly not second nature right now. -- Nikodemos 07:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Oppose, no immediate reason. Also 'Nazi Party' is far more ambigous. There have been 'Nazi Parties' in many countries, but just one NSDAP. --Soman 12:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support, for the several reasons mentioned by nominator here and those in previous discussions. Kafziel ^Talk 22:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - per nom. Any other 'Nazi Parties' can be dabbed if it's deemed necessary to have them under that name. Ask any English speaker for the name of the party that Hitler led, they'll say the Nazi Party. Conversely, ask any English speaker who/what were the Nazi Party, they'll tell you the party led by Hitler! robwingfield ^(talk) 22:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. I've never heard it called the "National Socialist German Workers Party" in English, except in introductions when explaining what Nazi or NSDAP means. I've never heard of any other organisations being literally called a "Nazi Party" either. FiggyBee 02:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. It's conventionally just called the "Nazi Party" in English, and when it isn't, it's called by its German name, either abbreviated as NSDAP, or in full. -- The Anome 02:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per Robwingfield. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - the common name in English, and easily the primary use of the term. Warofdreams talk 04:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Comment below. -- SigPig \^{SEND - OVER} 05:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - most people know it as the Nazi party - NSDAP is nowadays chiefly a term familiar to academics and historians and those more knowledgeable on the subject. The term and it's German wording and English translation should however be mentioned and discussed in the subsequent article. MarkThomas 12:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per policy. -- Vision Thing -- 19:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC) See below. -- Vision Thing -- 13:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons listed below:

• "Nazi" has very negative connotations and is not in the interest of our NPOV policy. Titling this article by the party's formal name; shows that this is a very serious article dealing with the party and not a cliché. A similar situation applies with Viet Cong being located at National Liberation Front of South Vietnam so as to be completely neutral - despite that Viet Cong is more common to English speakers.

• Oppose for reasons mentioned above, but also because the term Nazi isn't official, but slang, adopted through English. --Gregh2k 03:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh. "Murder" has negative connotations - should we call it "involuntary externally-motivated life termination"? Interesting though that the Viet Cong thing has been neutralised out - NPOV gone bonkers, a growing issue on WP. MarkThomas 12:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• There are other Nazi groups now rendering this term ambiguous, even if only in a minor way.
• The party didn't call themselves a "Nazi Party", so this term is really inaccurate the article explains the etymology of the term "Nazi". It's like having Communists at "commys" or "reds".
• This has been debated extensively already.
• Many formal publications use NSDAP and National Socialist German Workers' (/Labour) Party.
• Every other Wikipedia, just about uses National Socialist German Workers Party or variation of that. (I recognise this isn't really a valid argument- but it should be a factor).
• The title isn't that unbearable it fits across the page.
• Redirects really fix any problems users might have searching for NSDAP.

Kyle sb 11:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose, as explained by Soman. There are many "Nazi Party"s around the world. /Slarre 02:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose, 'Nazi' is derogatory and incorrect. It is widely known. If not, well it's redirected from Nazi Party so people might learn something. Generally the purpose of an encyclopaedia don't you think?

• Oppose, NSDAP got 1,630,000 hits on Google.
  • "Nazi Party" got 3,000,000 hits on Google.
• Support move this since "nazi party" is the most common known in the world. Not a lot of people know that it stands for national socialist, blah blah blah party." That is not common. Look at General Motors, Toyota, they are not in the page where it says "Toyota Motor Corporation." Move this now. I think German wikipedians want this as it is. Move ASAP. I don't care whether "nazi" sounds negative or positive, it should be moved since that is the most common name. Look at Nazi Germany, do you want that to be moved to "Deutsche Reich"? ** "Nazi Party" got 3,000,000 hits on Google.

71.208.116.200 00:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - "Nazi Party" is ambiguous. Reginmund 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • It's not ambiguous. Nazi Party googled almost always shows nazi germany nazi party 67.41.195.38 03:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Did you actually perform the Google search? %20 of the results were Neo-Nazi groups. Reginmund 04:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support The neutrality argument is usually fallacious; but here it is more so than usual: The NSDAP's customary name has negative connotations because the Nazis spent twelve years earning them. We should call the Nazis Nazis because that is the primary sense of the term; 80% usage is the figure usually held to invoke WP:PRIMARYMEANING . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey pt. 2

NSDAP

NSDAP, acronym from the official name National Socialist German Workers' Party, has 1,680,000 Google hits [5]. That is more results then "Nazi party" (1,350,000 ) and "National Socialist German Workers' Party" (90,800). Besides that, by using popular form of official name we will avoid ambiguity and negative connotations. So it has all the advantages of the titles "Nazi party" and "National Socialist German Workers' Party", and none of theirs weaknesses. -- Vision Thing -- 13:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you are wrong. "nazi party" got 2,600,000+ hits http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=nazi+party&spell=1

I think _you_ are wrong, try using google more accurately: 157.000 hits http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=lSR&q=%22nazi+party%22+-wikipedia&btnG=Search vs. 1.880.000 hits http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=A8l&q=%22NSDAP%22+-wikipedia&btnG=Search

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Support per policy. -- Vision Thing -- 13:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

• Comment. Note also, for example, the East German secret police are under Stasi, not "Ministry for State Security"; the early Soviet secret police is under Cheka, not "All-Russian Extraordinary Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution and Sabotage"; and Hitler's Finest are listed under Gestapo, not "Secret State Police". Even Nazi regime itself is called Nazi Germany, as opposed to the official (in English) "(Greater) German Reich". -- SigPig \^{SEND - OVER} 05:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Not true, Stasi is under its official name. Cheka is used because it would be uneccesary to transliterate it. "Gestapo" was actually used by the Nazis. The Nazi regime didn't call themselves Nazi Germany, they called themselves "Deutsches Reich" (German Empire). Reginmund 04:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conclusion

Nine votes for moving article back to the previous title of "Nazi Party", two for leaving article at "National Socialist German Workers Party"; 81% in favour of the move. Moving article accordingly. -- Karada 11:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It's ok to be bold, but there is no reason for it. Page will be moved by administrator once the discussion is over. -- Vision Thing -- 13:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I am an administrator, and I just moved it on the policy-driven basis that after two days, 80% of votes in the survey called for a move back to original name, which is also the name preferred by the Manual of Style. This is also statistically supported by the count of links to this article and usage on Google. That seems pretty straightforward to me. This compares with 20% support for "National Socialist German Worker's Party", and just one new vote for "NSDAP", added after I made the move. After adding your vote, there's still a two-thirds supermajority against "National Socialist German Worker's Party" with just 17% of votes, and "Nazi Party" still comes out as the consensus choice. I'm sorry, but consensus, policy, and common use all point one way on this issue. 66% > 17%, and policy > voting. -- Karada 14:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that isn't noted on your user page and you didn't close discussion as it's customary once page is officially moved, nor did you remove banner on top of the page and request from "Requested moves" page. Anyway, discussion isn't over since there is a possibility to change page name to NSDAP, which has 1,680,000 Google hits (330,000 more than "Nazi party"). I just added that suggestion, and nobody else had the time to vote for it. -- Vision Thing -- 14:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Not in English usage, which is the criterion specified by the MoS. You only get that figure if you aggregate results for all languages, which is not surprising, since "Nazi Party" is an English usage, but the acronym is used internationally. Try "advanced search" and select "English pages only". Restricting the search to English usage only then gives 1,320,000 hits for "nazi party" vs. 335,000 for NSDAP.

I still believe that closing the discussion was appropriate, given the rationale above. I suggest that the article remain at Nazi Party for now, and that if you want to move it to NSDAP, you should relist it on the requested moves page for moving to that name. -- Karada 15:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that NSDAP is used more internationally. I thought that NSDAP is a good compromise between those who object the move and those who support it. But if nobody is interested in that suggestion I'm not going to press it. -- Vision Thing -- 19:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, as far as I am concerned, this move to "Nazi Party" looks totally strange and unprecise to me. If this term is a common one in the english-speaking countries, ok, but maybe it would be better to use it in the Wikipedia for Simple English. The historically correct term is NSDAP or the long Form of it, and in my opinion Wikipedia should stick to actual history, and not todays perspective on it. Same goes for Nazi SS, Nazi SA and all the other "Nazi"-tagged articles. --Trickstar (talk) 11:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Trickster. Links on wikipedia often reflect editing convenience rather than usage. In addition, "most common usage" doesn't really control on Wikipedia when the usage is informal; the article on the U.S. is not entitled "America" even though that's what most people use in informal speech. Warren Dew (talk) 06:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rudolf Höß and SS Ranks

Opinions are needed on this article. A user is blanking the section on Hoess's SS ranks and awards and "trivial and validiating a criminal organization". It sounds like personal feelings, but I wanted to get the opinion of other editors since the user has reverted twice to this article section blanking. -Husnock 13:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The user is also now removing large sections from the Reinhard Heydrich article. Other opinions are needed. -Husnock 14:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

A further issue has arisen on the SS ranks article where a user is changing the rank translations in the articles to translations which contradict the sources of the article. The user claims he knows German better than the sources. Sorry to post here, but this page is more heavily watched than the ranks page. Need some more folks on thsi as I dont want to go beyond 3RR. Thank you! -Husnock 05:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps lacking balance?

It would be good if the piece talked a little about internal opposition to the Nazis. It was there, it did exist, and it's an important part of the story. I see that there isn't much on Wikipedia generally about this. What do others think?

Roger 17:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. One might even put even more than just a little! Critic9328 02:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What percentage of the population were members?

Does anyone have any stats on what percentage of the population were actual members of the Party? Of course including breakdown by years since presumably more and more people joined, at least until maybe 1944-5, for reasons like career advancement.

Note I am *not* asking for percentages of Germans who *voted* National Socialist, but rather who were card-carrying Party members.

Critic9328 02:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Italian Fascist Party page has a political party template for it, this page should too

I've posted on more than one occasion, a political party template to briefly overview the ideology of the Nazi Party, show its official newspaper, and its official emblem. Now some may think that putting this here may be amateurish for Wikipedia and is trivial, but the page for the Italian National Fascist Party has such a template as does the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, put this one does not. Remember that this is supposed to be a page for the party itself not soley the ideology, so such a template would make the page look more complete. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R-41 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Against the idea. Frankly, the more it looks like serious comment and the less it looks like a Nazi fan-fest the better. Roger 20:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

A template won't make the site a "fan-fest", it is just supposed to correlate with other pages. I do not see the USSR Communist Party page turning into a fan-fest for communists, neither do I see the Italian Fascist party page turning into a fan-fest for fascists. It is simply a political template with an overview, like most other pages have for political parties. I know that everything to do with Nazism IS OBVIOUSLY controversial. I recently posted the template on the site, it does not look like anything that could create a nazi "fan-fest" to me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.182.157 (talk) 22:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

The Nazis exert a magnetic pull on certain types of personality. Communists (with the notable exception of Señor Guevara) don't. Roger 11:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the template to me doesn't look like anything that will grab attention. Its not like I put a big propaganda poster in it or something. The template is being used to make the article similar to those of, yes, other totalitarian parties listed in wikipedia. If neo-nazi extremists start posting crap all over the place, then wikipedia can put a lock on editing the page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R-41 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] The National Socialist German Workers Party.

I don't understand how "socialists" are in the list of the "perceived... enemies"(in the third paragraph) while the word "Socialist" is included in the name of the party?

Chiloa (talk) 16:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Just because a particular word is in the name of a political party or country does not mean that the party of country lives up to that word. For example, there have been many countries with the words Democratic Republic of... in their names, but were actually totalitarian, not democratic at all.Spylab (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Its important to understand that 'National Socialism' isn't just 'National'+'Socialism'. In German its a composite word, and if one component is removed from the name then the whole meaning is lost. --Soman (talk) 17:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Soman, as far as you know, did the Nazi persecute the socialists? Chiloa (talk) 21:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Is there any questioning of that? --Soman (talk) 21:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Not from me. Chiloa (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC) Do you have an explanation for the word socialist in the name of the party?

Chiloa (talk) 21:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this a beginning of a series of insinuations? --Soman (talk) 23:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If you don't have an explanation, no problem. If you see insinuations: sorry and forget it. I felt that your first comment was making a lot a sense and encourage me to ask you more. Chiloa (talk) 01:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, I just recalled endless debates on this on other articles and templates, for which you should of course not be blamed. The explanation itself is very simple. National Socialism is a distinct ideology, which includes socialist elements. However, it is not part of the socialist movement as such and it makes sense to talk about National Socialists and Socialists as two distinct political groups. The major differentation between National Socialists and the contemporary mainstream of socialist movement (social democrats, left socialists, communists) is the total denial of National Socialists of the whole concept of class struggle. That said, National Socialism is not completly heterogenous, there were always dissident trends within it, and there has been points of convergence between National Socialists and Socialists. --Soman (talk) 08:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

What kind of "socialists" the Nazi were "persecuting"?

Chiloa (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Communists, Social Democrats, SAPD, other leftwing groups (like KAPD, KPO, etc.), --Soman (talk) 14:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

All!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.238.83 (talk) 12:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Chiloa (talk) 15:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PICT4170x.JPG

Image:PICT4170x.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 00:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "support of the majority of Germans"

May I ask what is the source of this statement ? I agree that many Germans supported the party, but you need country-wide polls and sociological research to state "majority". If such research was conducted, would anyone provide the source ? Or wouldn't it be better to say "support of many Germans" ? 213.247.163.6 23:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

When you become a registered Wikipedian I will be happy to debate this question with you. Adam 03:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

cool debates

Well I am a registered wikipedian, and I would say that this party did not have the support of Jewish Germans, Gay Germans, German Jehovah's Whitenesses, Socialist Germans, disabled Germans...shall I go on. So can we see this sociological study that suggest the "majority" of Germans supported this party. As I recall the election in which Hitler took power saw only a minority of Germans voting. Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to suggest that Nazi power came from a minority of Germans and ya for revisionist history and all that. I am only suggesting that Hitlers party came to power with one group of Germans scapegoating another group of Germans. A large and non-unified group that included the Germans I mentions earlier. So, where are the stats that prove this logic wrong?

And of course my dumb ass forgot to sing my above postDkriegls 07:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The NSDAP won less than 44% of the vote, and never more in a fair election. So "majority" is purely a guess as there was no fair election in which they won a majority of votes. --DerRichter (talk) 08:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

At the last free elections in November 1932, the SPD and the KPD got 37.3% of the vote between them, the Nazis got 33.1%, the Catholic Centre Party got 11.9%, and the various middle-class parties got 17.7%. Once Hitler was in office and repressed the Communists, these middle-class parties (DNVP, DVP, etc) went over to Hitler, giving him a notional majority. If you take the March 1933 elections, which were reasonably free, the majority is even larger - about 57%. Beyond that, large numbers of SPD, KPD and Centre supporters also went over to Hitler, mainly because of his apparent success in defeating unemployment. All the recent historians I have read agree that Hitler soon won the support of the great majority of Germans, and retained it until at least Stalingrad, and in most cases until the end of the war. There were of course no opinion polls, but the SD took regular and careful soundings of opinion through their large network of agents, and made reports to Himmler. We know there reports were objective because they do record the decline in support for the regime later in the war, and are frank about those aspects of the regime which the population did not approve - attacks on the churches, for example, and the corruption of people like Goering and Ley. It's true that there was a hard core of socialist and communist voters who never accepted the regime, and also an undercurrent of opposition in Catholic areas, but the majority of working-class voters at least passively accepted it. Nearly all German credited Hitler with ending unemployment, restoring order, overturning the Versailles treaty, uniting Germany and Austria, etc. The most recent reference I have on this is Robert Galletely, Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany (Oxford 2001). He says: "Although Hitler and Nazis could not win the support of the majority of Germans in free elections, within a matter of months after his appointment as Chancellor, most citizens came to accept and then firmly to back him." (page 1). This verdict is shared by Kershaw and Fest. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 05:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no basis for such a statement. A majority of Germans may have supported Hitler as Chancellor, or this or that measure, or this or that policy but how can we measure support for a party except by election results? No free (or semi-free) elections ever resulted in a Nazi majority. BTW, lumping together Social Democrats (defending the Republican constitution) and the Communists (out to destroy it) should really be a no-no! Str1977 ^(talk) 12:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The basis for the statement is the work of all the leading historians of the period: Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest, Richard J. Evans and Robert Galletely. I will give you quotes from all of them if you want. What's your evidence to the contrary? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 03:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The evidence are the results at the elections in which the NSDAP gained less than 44% all the time. Everything else is mumbo-jumbo opinion. --217.83.54.56 (talk) 17:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm afraid that's just not true. The Nazis were in power for 12 years after the last free elections in 1933, and there is plenty of sound empirical evidence for the state of German public opinion during that time. The two most important sources are the SD's regular reports to Himmler, based on their extensive network of informants, and the reports of the underground SPD. There are also many observations by resident foreign journalists such as Willian Shirer and writers such as Stephen Roberts who travelled in Germany during those years. ALL these sources agree that Hitler's successes in suppressing disorder, curing unemployment, overturning the Treaty of Versailles and bringing Austria and the Sudetenland into the Reich made Hitler phenominally popular by 1939. Only once the war began to go badly did public opinion begin to turn, and even then it remained fairly solid till after Stalingrad. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 23:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 555th, not 55th member.

The article points out Hitler as the 55th member of the Nazi party, but he was the 555th member. I tried changing it, but someone reverted it back, so I'll just put this here for clarity's sake before reverting. Ian Kershaw's book and photos of Hitler's DAP membership card all support the fact that he was the 555th member, not the 55th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.127.16 (talk) 02:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

He was actually the 55th, 555th was added by the party to give the impression that they had more numbers SGGH ^speak! 11:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A proposal

Hey guys the following intro to this states (This included Jews, Slavs, Roma, Arabs, Africans and homosexuals (See also Paragraph 175), along with Jehovah's Witnesses, the mentally and/or physically disabled, socialists, and communists.) In addition to these groups the nazi's targeted gypsies and poles as well. I propose we add these two groups to the sentence. thanks Levi Seigel (talk) 01:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not an article about the Holocaust and does not require a list of everyone persecuted by the Nazi regime. I will rephrase the opening section so that it does not read like a list. Strictly speaking the term "Holocaust" relates only to the Jews. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 02:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I think your reference to "gypsies" is covered by "Roma" and your reference to "Poles" covered by "Slavs". --Trickstar (talk) 11:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name of article

It's funny, an encyclopedia is not a democracy, where you can vote on content, and the majority wins. _Facts_ win, but not in the english wikipedia, it seems. Have you ever heard of redirects for popular names? --Trickstar (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant Sentence

This might be confusing because talk for Nazi Party redirects to this talk page, but on the Nazi Party page, there is a sentence: The nazis came from a person named Hitler. Does this sentence really serve any purpose or just vandalism? I would like to delete it if no one has any objections. Thanks --DerRichter (talk) 04:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted the vandalism and removed the redirect on the Talk page. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 08:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)