Category talk:Naval ships of France

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[edit] Naming conventions

[edit] Prefix

The French Navy does not use prefixes for its ships (like the Royal Navy does, "HMS Kent" for instance). However, since it makes it easier to understand the nationality of ships, I suggest we put the prefix FS ("French Ship"), which is already widely used informally internationally.

[edit] Articles

Articles (le, la, les) are not part of the name of the ship. "French submarine Triomphant", "Triomphant type" (not "Le Triomphant type"; yes, I know that lots of people write it like that, including the DCN itself (it probably gave up educating people), but it's not less wrong. What would you say of French people systematically saying "USS The Forrestal" ?).

Caution, in some cases, what smight look like an article can be a part of the part (La Motte-Picquet). Here, the La is not an article. In doubt, ask me...

[edit] Nobility particles

In French, the nobility particle is "de" ("duc de Guise"), with a small "d". Now, nobility particles are not said when just refering to a person's name (without the first name or the title): "Richelieu", but "Cardinal de Richelieu".

Caution, some names might have a "De" inside which in not' a particle, but part of the name. Here the "D" is in capital.

Now, there are exceptions too: "De Gaulle" is not a particle (proof ? easy: "General de Gaulle"; "Charles de Gaulle"; "de Gaulle". Noone will ever say just "Gaulle" (cf "Richelieu")). For "de Gaulle", it is mainly the usage which has more or less enforced the "de" over the "De", which would be more correct (and also more republican...).

Now, for some cases, the particle will show in the ship's name with a capital (De Grasse, D'Entrecasteaux); in some other cases, the small caracter is tolerated in the middle of the name (De Gaulle, but Charles de Gaulle). There again, if you want my idea about the subject, you can ask me.

[edit] Dates

Now for something simple ! :)

I sugest that we add the dates of commissioning and de-commissioning (or sinking, disapearing, whatever...) after the name of ships which are no longer in service in the French Navy, much like it's done for the Royal Navy already on Wikipedia.

Thusly, FS Surcouf (1927-1942) refers to the Second World War submarine, and FS Surcouf refers to the ontemporary stealth frigate.

I hope this helps avoid all the "French Cruiser Jeanne d'Arc", "French_Richelieu_(1940)", and other caoticlooking things I have seen in the past :) If someone has suggestions, remarks, or anything, tell me ! Cheers and happy editing ! Rama 06:35, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This all is better to bring up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships; I'm probably the only person watching the category's talk page. I have mixed feelings about the "FS" - in general we try to avoid inventing prefixes that have no basis in reality (no DKM for Germany, etc), and so we just spell out the name/type as a sort of quasi-substitute. People often think they have to have prefixes because the US and UK do it, but that's not true. I agree about dropping particles - we should write the name exactly as the French Navy does. The following "(year)" bits are launch or acquisition dates, chosen because they make sense for non-naval ships too, gives consistent meaning. Since the "(year)" is for disambig, we want it shorter rather than longer - an end date doesn't distinguish the ship further, so I'd just as soon omit it. But in any case you should make any changes as a proposal to the WikiProject page, so that other editors will know what rules you're applying when undoing their past work, and so they don't revert you... :-) Stan 12:41, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I also pasted this on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships, as well as on French Navy. There were already some other reactions which rather go in the same direction than you about the dates (i.e. that the second date in not necessary).

I agree with you on principle about the prefix, but there is the problem about the names of people who have the same name (for instance "Surcouf" goes to Robert Surcouf, while "FS Surcouf" goes to the stealth frigate...). Would you care to join the discussion on French Navy about this ? Thank you very much for your reaction and interest ! Cheers ! Rama 14:05, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.