Talk:Nauvoo Expositor
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details. | |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. | |
| This article falls within the scope of the Interfaith work group. If you are interested in Interfaith-related topics, please visit the project page to see how you can help. If you have any comments regarding the appropriateness or positioning of this template, please let us know at our talk page.
|
||
 |
This article is part of Latter Day Saint movement WikiProject, an attempt to provide comprehensive and detailed information about the Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism on Wikipedia. To participate in the project, edit this article, visit the List of articles about the Latter Day Saint movement, the project page, and/or join the discussion. For writing guidelines about contributing to the project, you may want to read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) | |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. | |
Contents |
[edit] Nauvoo Charter
Contrary to propoganda or ignorance, the Nauvoo Charter does NOT "incorporate" the Illinois nor the US Constitutions. At most this is something like a counterpart to provisions like the Supremacy clause of the US constitution...a "subordination clause" if I may call it that. It is an unusual provision. The charter does give the Illinois state circuit courts appellate jurisdiction over Nauvoo's municipal courts, but it does not give Fed courts jurisdiction to rule on the matter nor could a city or state give juridiction to a fed court, nor would nor should a fed court rule on the matter because it is only a matter of local and state law...at most this sort of quasi-fed-law issue could only be appealed as far as IL's supreme court as odd as that may seem to give a state the final word on interpreting a quasi-fed-law. B
- I agree that the assumption that the US does not apply at all since this happened before the 14th ammendment. I have no idea why people don't understand that. I had assumed that the relationship between towns and states was different than the relationship between states and the federal government. The states granted limmited powers to the federal government while on the other hand the states grant powers to the towns(at least in this case). Based on the difference in their relationship, the state constitution would appear to apply to Nauvoo even though it is not incorporated into the charter. You also bring up the point that freedom of speech/press is not unlimmited. While this is clearly true, a signifficant part of what freedom of speech/press is supposed to protect is political speech. When I read through the first issue of the Expositor it deffinitely did seem like a political publication, not just a mormon bashing paper. It clearly stated that only the first few issues would even deal with mormonism since the Expositor was a political publication. The paper clearly advocates against Joseph Smith's candidacy for president and Hyrum's candidacy for some state office. The discussion about how Joseph ran the mormon church and his alleged abuse of Habeus Corpus to shield people from the law are used to show that Joseph Smith is unfit for office. Politicians are not supposed to use the law to silence their critics; the gaurantee of a free press is supposed to prevent that. I think that your latest revision generally improves what I added, but I think it still needs a little more work. --andyh
Andy, thanks for engaging positively on this topic. This is a complex legal issue that has not been adequately addressed AKAIK. Ultimately, the legality of the censorship at that time is indeterminate since the case was never run thru the courts...so even if the law was clear, the most an intelligent mind could do is give an educated guess as to how the state judiciary would apply the law. A further problem is, even if it were run thru the courts, second-guessers who didn't like the outcome in this case wouldn't stop arguing; they would argue the courts decided wrongly because [fill in the blank]. Some of the issues would be novel to the judiciary at that time too, I'm sure...e.g., much of federal constitutional rights was only developed and matured in the last few decades. It will take some good research to develop the article substantially further, but some more tweaking might help the current article B 05:47, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone can argue persuasively that the Expositor was not political speech, but again, free speech is not absolute, even political speech...In this case where the speech is deemed a public nuisance, the issue is what limitations, if any, did nuisance law have on political speech. There is no immediately clear answer. B 05:47, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It's not clear what distinction you're tryin to draw b/w the limited powers granted to the fed gov't by the US constitution (ratified by the states with the states reserving all remaining powers to themselves under the 10th amendment) AND the powers (limited or plenary) given to local gov't entities by their respective states. Both of these are completely different structures for allocating power. As I read the 1818 Illinois constitution, it is very poorly drafted. Maybe that's why the IL constitution was later revised, I don't know. But take, for example, the US const 14th Amend: it specifically states that "no state" shall infringe on due process, etc. The IL constitution's provision on free speech is terribly ambiguous: "The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty." Oookay, "no law". Does no law mean merely no state law? Does that include no local law? And that's not the only ambiguity in that provision. B 05:47, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Oaks comment unsourced
The quip claiming "even Oaks may have waffled later from his earlier defense" is unfounded. Allow me to quote from a recent (May 2005) talk given by Dallin H. Oaks, in which he confirms his original position: "...Few men have been the targets of more assaults on their mission or their memory than Joseph Smith. I investigated some of these charges by personal research in original records in Illinois where Joseph lived the last five years of his life. The event that focused anti-Mormon hostilities that led directly to his murder was the action of mayor Joseph Smith and the Nauvoo city council in suppressing an opposition newspaper. Early Mormon historians including B. H. Roberts conceded that this action was illegal. However, as I researched the subject as a young law professor, I was surprised to find a legal basis for this action in the Illinois law of 1844. My law review article reminded that the guarantee of freedom of the press in the Unites States Constituion was not declared applicable to the actions of city and state governments until 1931 and then only by a 5 to 4 court's reliance on a constitutional amendment adopted in 1868. There were many suppressions of newspapers on the frontier in the period before the Civil War. We should judge the actions of our predecessors on the basis of the laws and commandments and circumstances of their day, not ours" (starting a little after 34:30 in Session 3, available here: [1]). Unless the claim of Oaks' alleged "waffling" can be proven with a direct quote--with reference--the claim should be removed. --tJM, 22 Jul 2005
- I will remove the unsourced statement concerning Oaks, but his defense of the "legality" of the city council's action places law above ethics. It is like saying slavery in the US prior to 1863 can be justified because it was legal. --Blainster 19:41, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Criticism of Smith
(Smith was in fact actively seeking multiple wives in secret, while publicly denying such rumors and accounts.) Is this a point of criticism or a substantiated fact? by ex-lds mbr. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.166.159.4 (talk • contribs) 15:09, June 1, 2006 (UTC)
- The parenthetical statement is an editorial statement added by an editor who agrees with the third point of criticism in the Expositor paper. It should be referenced by a published source or removed, according to the policy on Wikipedia, which deprecates personal opinion or original research. Having said that, it is consistent with the research of historians such as those in the John Whitmer Historical Association --Blainster 04:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dallin H. Oaks
It is my feeling that Mr. Oaks current position in the LDS is very relevant as to his POV on this subject, and should be included in the article itself and not just as a footnote. Duke53 | Talk 04:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- When he wrote the article he was not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, so it's a bit backwards to want to mention it in the text of the article. If you would like to add the fact that was a practising Latter-day Saint into the text of the article, that makes more sense. In other words, the fact that he was LDS could have affected his POV when he wrote his article. The fact that he was later called as a member of the Quroum of the Twelve could have had no effect when he wrote the article. If he's more notable for something other than the article that occurred after the publication of the article, it is more than appropriate to reference that factoid in a footnote, but it should not be inserted as all it does is disrupts the flow of the sentence. (And we're not just talking a couple of months' or years' separating the events here—the article was published in 1965 and he didn't become an LDS apostle until 1984.) –SESmith 05:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Duke53, it sounds like you think Oaks's analysis might have been tainted by his pro-LDS point of view. If that were indeed the case, do you think it would have been likely that such an unsound analysis would be published in the Utah Law Review and be favorably cited by the U.S. Supreme Court? In particular, doesn't the rigorous editorial process of a law review journal weigh in your mind against the assumption that his work was apologetic rather than objective? By bringing Oaks's current position in the LDS church into the article, forty years after his analysis was done, aren't you making a bigger issue of his supposed bias than the law review editors or the Supreme Court justices have done? And are you comfortable with the idea that any legal scholar's commentary on the subject (if any besides Oaks have done so) should have their current religious activity mentioned, in case they too have a potential bias towards or against Mormonism? alanyst /talk/ 05:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Duke53, it sounds like you think Oaks's analysis might have been tainted by his pro-LDS point of view". I absolutely do think that his 'pro-LDS' may have played a part in his analysis, just as I would feel that an 'anti-LDS' analyst's POV would come into play with his opinion.
- "Oaks's legal scholarship into the history of the writ of habeas corpus was approvingly referenced by the U.S. Supreme Court". Does this equate to his analysis of Smith's role in destroying the newspaper? I do not see the connection. Was he lauded by the U.S. Supreme Court for his analysis on the subject of this article? As far as the Utah Law Review .... ?? I am fairly certain that if an 'anti-LDS' attorney had come up with an alternate opinion about this incident that his 'anti-Mormonism' stance would be noted in the article somehow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duke53 (talk • contribs) 06:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's a problem with noting his LDS affiliation, but you wanted to note his membership in the Quorum of the 12, which is a separate issue. – SESmith 06:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
[Edit conflict.] Okay, good to know where you're coming from, Duke53. I basically agree with SESmith that Oaks's current position has little relevance to his analysis of forty years ago, but that his status at the time of the analysis as an LDS member perhaps merits a mention, something like this:
However, a legal analysis of the issue was undertaken by an LDS law professor, Dallin H. Oaks, while he was teaching at the University of Chicago Law School.
That mention of his religion, together with the link to Oaks's own article that details his professional and ecclesiastical activities, should be sufficient to alert the reader to possible influences on his legal scholarship, I think. Do you agree, Duke53? It's actually not entirely to my liking, as I don't care for the implication that just because someone has a set of beliefs that their academically-reviewed scholarship is questionable, but I can see how omitting mention of his background can make it look like someone is trying to sneak in an apologetic viewpoint to the article. I don't believe anyone's trying to do that, but if it makes the article seem more honest then I'm okay with it, for my part. alanyst /talk/ 07:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Some people's versions of 'academically-reviewed' or 'peer reviewed' articles are not exactly 'to my liking' either, but I am told that I have to live with it. Oaks didn't get to his current lofty position in the LDS church by publishing anything that might upset the powers-that-be of the LDS church; my feeling is that this work of his follows the church's view very closely. Duke53 | Talk 01:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The ironic thing about this "conspiracy-theory"-style outlook being floated here is that if there is any law review in the North America that tries extremely hard to avoid presenting or appearing to present pro-LDS Church material, it is the Utah Law Review. The University of Utah—and particularly its law school—is not exactly well-known for its positive view of Mormonism or the LDS Church. Had the article been published in a BYU law review, your argument might have legs. I also don't understand why pet theories about how Oaks got to his current position is in any way relevant to this article. –SESmith 01:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- And if the review had been done at any other law review outside the state with the largest LDS population in the U.S.A. your argument might have legs. Duke53 | Talk 01:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
You obviously aren't familiar with the editorial biases of the Utah Law Review. It's called "overcompensation". Oaks has published other legal works touching on Mormonism, some of which have been published by the University of Illinois Press. I would bet that you, due to your personal biases and pet theories, would find these just as suspect, despite the fact that they were not published in Utah. –SESmith 02:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I have tape-recordings of their editorial meetings from the past 45 years. :) My point was not to "prove" anything: it was merely to note that it is ironic that you bring up these concerns when a common perception among many lawyers about the Utah Law Review is the complete opposite of your apparent concerns about it. My saying this doesn't "prove" anything, except maybe that you are not at all familiar with some common perceptions of the ULR.
- Anyway, should I assume you also have researched the issue and have independent documented proof of the biased nature of Oaks's legal opinions and that the nature of these opinions were taken into account when deciding to make him an LDS Church apostle? -SESmith 03:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
-
- You may assume anything that you choose. By 'documented proof' I meant something in a public record or such, not some OR that you may have. I will understand if you don't have proof, just some perception about them. I never stated as fact that Oaks was biased ... you did state as fact that the Utah Law Review was biased. Duke53 | Talk 04:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, you don't need to apply WP article standards to things someone writes on the Talk page, you know. That's a bit ridiculous. It's not like I'm including my opinions about ULR in the article. And incidentally, my point was not that the ULR is biased: one of my comments above clarifies that there was a general perception amongst lawyers that they tried to avoid being or looking pro-LDS Church. If you misunderstood my point due to my jovial, colloquial and abbreviated style of writing on a talk page, that's really what it was. You did, however, state without much equivication that Oaks gained his current position by avoiding the publication of anything that "might upset the powers-that-be" of the LDS Church, and you haven't modified this view with a subsequent comment. So if you're worried about OR on the talk page, it's right under your nose. :) Silly ... Let's keep the OR worries to matters that are actually edited into the article.
I think that it could probably constitute a violation of WP:OR to require the article to state Oaks's current position in a section talking about a piece of legal research and writing he produced in the 1960s, which was the original issue here.-SESmith 08:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the problem here. Oaks at the time was a law professor with a prestigious clerkship and few years of practice at Kirkland & Ellis under his belt. Being a Latter-day Saint, his analysis could have been biased, but we're not citing here him as an apostle. We're quoting him as a Mormon attorney and professor. I think the most problematic part of this article is right before the Oaks quote. It seems to be original legal analysis from primary sources. Can we get a citation for it? Cool Hand Luke 08:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Incidentally, we might want to augment Oaks' 1965 view with his co-written treatise Carthage Conspiracy (Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill , Urbana, University of Illinois Press, 1975). I've not read it, but it appears to cover much of the same ground. The BYU Law Review wrote in a book review of it with this excerpt: "The Mormons' destruction of the press of the Nauvoo Expositor, a clearly unjustified act, and Joseph Smith's flight to avoid arrest are frankly described..." 1976 BYU L. Rev. 353, 354. Cool Hand Luke 09:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, scratch that. The enormous copyright violation known as Google books tells me that they just cite Oaks' earlier article approvingly for legal analysis. Marvin S. Hill, a BYU History professor, does not add credibility to the source if we're worried about his pro-Mormon bias. Cool Hand Luke 09:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
