Talk:Natural law

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Philosophy Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Philosophy, which collaborates on articles related to philosophy. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Low	This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale.
Additional information: Related task forces (core areas): Metaphysics Ethics Social and political philosophy

	This article is part of WikiProject Human rights, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the Project page, where you can join the Project and contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance on the assessment scale.

Contents 1 Vandalism? Acquinas' theological virtues 2 history 3 other view 4 transcendental or immanental? or both? 5 reorganization? 6 merge 7 Political party 8 Holding place for more philosophy quotes for later addition 9 Holding place re Bertrand Russell: quotes etc for later addition 10 Anarchist law 11 Merge 12 Teleological? 13 Alternate spellings 14 Daoism? 15 Hobbes' natural law 16 Religious and secular natural law theories 17 Natural Law is from God 17.1 Explanations for all of my edits to date 18 Introduction is not an easy read 19 Mediation request 20 Natural Forum 21 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

[edit] Vandalism? Acquinas' theological virtues

I'm pretty sure that someone vandalized this article:

"His theological virtues are:

Hope
Charity
Faith
Drew Whisler
Jay Pichler
Bob "

But i'm not sure what the correct virtues are. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.153.189.242 (talk) 17:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] history

(There should be a more exact history of the natural law, e.g. that the idea first appeared in the Roman Law.)

[edit] other view

Should probably also mention that natural law is used by people such as Thomas Hobbes to justify political absolutism... the article right now doesn't cover that aspect. ~ Booyabazooka 01:26, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] transcendental or immanental? or both?

serious questions worth an answer:

considering that the unified field of all the laws of nature (the constitution of the universe) is exactly what theology calls holy spirit (god) which is the source of all, and is omnipresent (in the nucleus of every atom in the universe), omniscient (possessing total knowledge and wisdom), and omnipotent (able to manifest infinite creative potential), is there then any real valid difference between transcendental and immanental? and why not call the technique "transcendental meditation" by the term "immanental meditation" since everything is from within the mind anyway?

i personally like the sound of "nature's meditation", since the laws of nature and of nature's god is the fundamental basis for our own existence. what thinkest you?

see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanentism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence

[edit] reorganization?

I was curious as to whether there would be consensus regarding a reorganization of this page. I think we might gain additional clarity by treating the topic historically, noting what natural law meant to the stoics, the Thomists, the early moderns, legal scholars, contemporary theorists, etc. This might help avoid the trend to say what natural law "really is," or provide additional defenses/critiques of it in he article. The most recent addition of a long meditation of what it means to be a person, how this relates to nature, and to sexuality, for example, seems alien to natural law tradition of, say, the stoics. Noting that the concept has evolved might avoid such distortions. In some theories, it is inseparable from theology, in some it is very separate, and in some it is oblivious to theological questions. It might also be good to note that natural law legal theories have diverged from their philosophic roots; this would avoid the cross-disciplinary confusion that can oftentimes result. -RJC 02:20, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article as it is now it is all over the place in some parts and is not very reader friendly so a reorganization, I would imagine, would be well received. -- PullUpYourSocks 02:46, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] merge

Law of nature (precept) seems related. --Truman Burbank 09:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

you're right. Should be merged. Natural law is closely related to the social contract school, of which Hobbes is the first representant. Santa Sangre 13:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

If they should be merged, it should be to the Natural Law article, as that is more of a term for a movement that has existed as an umbrella term in social philosophy through many permutations. Nagelfar 15:42, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with a merge. It seems to me that LON(p) contains entirely Hobbes stuff; but if included in its entirety into LON, would make that article unbalanced; and would then inevitably be cut down. So its better left where it is. William M. Connolley 16:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC).

I agree with a merge, or a retitling. The more fundamental page is the other one, this sociological page is derivative; that is, the "sociological" natural law is just another example of general "laws" derived by induction (empirical facts, observations). And: when I went hunting for a Wikipedia page after I encountered the following in Hans Reichenbach, Elements of Symbolic Logic, Dover, 1947 (Dover edition 1980, unabridged), I landed on the "wrong" page. In fact both should be connected with the other page the lead, including e.g the following definition:

"Tautological implication is used in mathematics; it is a relation between structural forms and can be established without reference to the particular empirical meanings of the terms involved. In physics, however, we find another type of implication which is not determined by structural form, which holds only between sentences of particular empirical meanings, and whose estabilishment in any particulare case goes back to experience. This synthetic connective implication is what we usually call a natural law, i.e. a physical law, or a biological law, or a sociological law.... it is only a matter of fact that this implication holds [etc]" (bold-face added, italics in the original: Reichenbach, VIII Connective Operations and Modalities, §60. Practical reasons for the introduction of connective operations, p. 355)

This echoes writing by Bertrand Russell, which I will need to investigate (it's in one of his later works, where he discusses natural law in terms of induction. Induction bothered Russell, big-time).

No matter what the decision re a merge, I will do some work on this and add this stuff somewhere on the other article page. wvbaileyWvbailey 14:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

How can Natural law be the same as the law of nature? The law of nature is an metaphysical entity that confines our actions within it. As Locke used it, the law of nature determines how far we may exercise our liberties. Natural law, however, is confined to morality. Instead of supplying a framework, it merely is used, by the likes of John Finnis and Lon Fuller, to legitimate laws that are passed. Natural law, in this sense, is consequentialist in effect - Daniel Wilmot, 04 April 2006

No (modern) philosopher would agree that there is, in the singular, "THE Law of Nature" but rather various "laws" and means by which the "laws" are determined, some considered "legitimate", some "inherited", e.g. "laws of nature" determined by observation/induction, by "belief", by "consensus/codification", by "searching ones soul" (Platonism), by "inherited wisdom of the tribe/religion", by "what your mommy told you", etc. Read the quotations below. Unless you are a Platonist, these words are usually used in context of "repeated observation", as in "induction". The words "law of nature" and "natural law" seem to be used interchangeably. E.g. is it a "law of nature" or "a natural law" that a man shall treat another man with respect? Is it a "law of nature" or a "natural law" that the sun rises every morning in the east? wvbaileyWvbailey 14:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that it is unnecessary to merge these two articles because Natural Law focuses on Aristotelian philosophy whereas the law of nature precept is focusing on something else.

I disagree with the merge because they are two somewhat different theoretical concepts. The Law of Nature is a material law, as described by Hobbes and utilized by others to depict almost the social laws of pre-societal nature. Natural Law, however, differs from this in the eyes of many thoerists. For example, for Thomas Aquinas, Natural Law is those aspects of the Eternal Law (the laws of the Universe) that apply particularly to mankind. This is like prudence, or practical reason, through which the paricipation of a rational creature can result in a higher form of self-direction.

I also disagree with the merge. Natural law proper is a term of art inside the specialized field of jurisprudence, and should remain its own entry with a link to the "law(s) of nature".

[edit] Political party

What about the U.K. political party of the same name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.72.46 (talk • contribs)

completely unrelated. similar parties exist around the world. some disambiguation may be necessary.

[edit] Holding place for more philosophy quotes for later addition

-- a work in progress -- [some bold-face has been added for emphasis]

Hume's take on "natural law":

"But to convince ourselves that all the laws of nature and all the operations of bodies without exception, are known only by experience...[an argument follows-- in particular Hume disavows a priori knowledge]...In vain, therefore, should we pretend to determine any single event, or infer any cause or effect, without the assitance of observation and experiment... the utmost effort of human reason is to reduce the principles, productive of natural phenomena, to a greater simplicity, and to resolve the many particular effects into a few general causes, by means of reasonings from analogy, experience, and observation [Hume then asserts that when we arrive at this knowing: "These ultimate springs and principles are totally shut up from human curiosity and enquiry" (Hume, Section IV Part I, GBWW p. 459)]

"It is only after a long course of uniform experiments in any kind, that we attain a firm reliance and security with regard to a particular event"(ibid, Part II p. 462)

David Hume, An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding, reprinted in Great Books of the Western World Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 35, 1952, p.449ff. This work was published by Hume in 1758 as his rewrite of his "juvenile" Treatise of Human Nature: Being An attempt to introduce the experimental method of Reasoning into Moral Subjects Vol. I, Of The Understanding first published 1739, reprinted as: David Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, Penguin Classics, 1985. Also see: David Applebaum, The Vision of Hume, Vega, London, 2001: a reprint of a portion of An Inquiry starts on p. 94ff

Bertrand Russell did not agree with this utter denial of a priori knowledge, in fact he expends great energy to convince us otherwise. [source attribution necessary here, plus quotes.] wvbaileyWvbailey 18:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Reichenbach invokes both Hume and Russell:

"We agree with Hume that physical necessity is translatable into statements about repeated concurrences, including the prediction that the same combination will occur in the future without exception. 'Physically necessary is expressible in terms of 'always'."(Reichenbach p 356)

['always' invokes the "all-operator" of logic, usually symbolized as an upside-down A-- Reichenbach uses the older (x) of Principia Mathematica to designate the "all-operator"]

"Russell has suggested that natural laws be expressed as general implications." (Reinchenbach p 356) [Again "general" invokes the "all-operator" he gives the example: (x)[f(x) -> g(x)] where 'f(x)' is 'x is a metal being heated' and 'g(x)' is 'x expands'. Thus the "general implication" reads: "Whenever (any) metal is heated it expands".]

But Reichenbach notes "...some difficulties remaining." [p. 357]

Reichenbach makes great pains to discriminate between two types of logical "connectives" used in speech, and he moves his discussion toward induction and away from deduction, the primary focus of his work:

"...we speak of adjunctive operations and connective operations. An adjunctive operation can be verified by one observation; a connective operation can only be falsified by one observation, whereas in the positive case [a connective operation] can only conform with it. We may also say that the connective operation can be confirmed by one observation, if by 'confirming' we understand 'conforming with', i.e., 'not contradicting'. ... A discussion of this confirmatory evidence belongs in inductive logic, since its use is based on a special form of inductive inference." (§7 Truth Tables, pp. 28-29)

"Since adjunctive operations are verified or fastified by the truth values of the propostions they combine, these operations are also called truth-functions. Connective operations are not truth-functional in this sense; but they can be called truth-functional in a wider sense if they are translatable into other statements that contain only adjunctive operations ... such as hold for repeated observation of events of the same kind." (§7 Truth Tables, pp. 30-31)

Reichenbach asserts that in these cases of connective operations (e.g. that result in "laws of nature") we must read the truth tables from right to left, that is, from the "compound statement" back to the "elementary propositions".

Thus the assertion (the "connective" implication) "IF more than three inches of rain falls THEN we're going to flood" should be read this way:

"Yes my assertion is true, this time: Indeed, more than three inches of rain fell, and indeed it's true that we are flooding."

Thus we have merely confirmed the assertion, rather than proven its "truth". To disprove the assertion we need to demonstrate, at least once, that:

"Oh oh, guess my assertion is wrong: four inches of rain fell and we are not flooding."

Reichenbach further adds distinction between "tautological adjunctive operations" and "nontautological connective operations".

"We showed... that [the analytic connective operations used in deductive reasoning] can be interpreted as tautological adjunctive operations.... [whereas the] synthetic connective implication [used in inductive reasoning] is what we usually call a natural law..." (§60 Practical Reasons for the introduction of connective operations, p.355)

Reichenbach asserts that all tautologies can be reduced to the Law of excluded middle or tertium non datur i.e. P V ~P: "This is its shortest form. It is clear that we can do the same for every tautology. All tautologies have [this] same shortest form ..." (§11 Derivations, p. 52). Dispite the beliefs of Aristotle and Hilbert and Russell excluded middle is not a settled "fact", see more at the linked page. wvbaileyWvbailey 21:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Reichenbach has given the following meaning with regard to so-called nomological formulas: "The term 'nomological', derived from the Greek word 'nomos' meaning 'law', is chosen to express the idea that the formulas are either laws of nature or logical laws. Analytic nomological formulas are tautological formulas [e.g. always true: P V ~P, the tertium non datur, more below], or logical laws; synthetic nomological formulas are laws of nature. The term 'nomological' is therefore a generalization of term 'tautological'" (Reichenbach, p. 360?)

In our example [flying pigs], "Q = P V ~P" is called a "tautology" because it is always true-- either (1) some of the objects are flying pigs or (2) not true that some of the objects are flying pigs or (3) both statements are true. In fact Reichenbach defines "tautology" as the tertium non datur P V ~P:

"All tautologies have the same shortest disjunctive normal form namely [P V ~P] (cf Reichenbach p 52).

wvbaileyWvbailey 15:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Holding place re Bertrand Russell: quotes etc for later addition

--a work in progress: complicated enough to warrant a new holding place --

Thread is: a priori knowledge exists, as do "universals", and what he calls "general laws".

Russell's essay The Art of Drawing Inferences: > 2 types of logic--

> (1) deductive-- conclusions as certain as the premises

> (2) inductive-- uses deduction but conclusion only probable

"A deductive inference, if it is logically correct, gives as much certainty to the conclusion as the premises, while an inductive infrence, even when it obeys all the rules of logic, only makes the conclusion probable even when the premises are deemed certain" (The Art of Philosophizing, p. 38)

> Induction is "immensely strenghten[ed]" by "general laws" [he means, e.g. mathematical formulas in his sense of p. 57] which can show "the presence of regularity"(p. 50).

> He makes a bold assertion that:

"...general laws cannot be discovered unless they exist."(p. 51)

> That induction is "valid" cannot be proved by induction [reference?]. At the end of the essay he throws up his hands and invokes Reichenbach (!)

."..roughly speaking, his answer is this: If induction is valid, science is possible; if it is not, science is impossible, since there is no other imaginable principle to take its place. Therefore you will do well to act on the assumption that induction is valid, since, otherwise, you can have no reason for doing one thing rather than another. This answer is not fallactious, but I cannot say that I find it very satisfying" (The Art..., p. 75)

Russell avows the existence of "universals" and their existence beyond our minds:

"Having now seen that there must be such entitites as universals, the next point to be proved is that their being is not merely mental. By this is meant that wheatever being belongs to them is independent of their being though of or in any way apprehended by minds." (p. 97)

In the two paragraphs just prior he states his oppostion to Berkeley and Hume's denial of "universals" (universal laws, universal qualities such as "whiteness"). In particular he casserts: "The relation of resemblance, therefore, must be a true universal".:

"Berkeley and Hume failed to perceive this refutation of their rejection of 'abstracct ideas', because, like their adversaires, they only thought of qualities, and altogether ignored relations, as universals" (p. 97)

He goes on to assert that

Every thing that can be apprehended by the senses or by introspection exists at some particular time" (p. 98)

whereas relations such as (his example) 'north of' (as in: "Edinburgh is nort of London" is "...neither in space nor in time, neither material nor mental; yet is something." (p. 98)

Russell eventually asserts that certain "relations" between [sensations? what exactly?]such as "similar to" ("same as"), "above", "below", etc. are "a priori". Because of philosophic abuses he moves away from [eschews, wishes to avoid] the word "innate" but does derive "a priori" from "innate". And "universal" seems to mean "always" or "always within reason" when applied to multiple observations [true?? Verify.]] Thus:

"Edinburgh is above London."

could be interpreted to mean:

"Edinburgh and London exist and always it is true that: 'Edingburgh is north of London'."

The reader may develop certain anxieties around this example: They may start with "What does "north" mean? The statement implies the existance of a "South Pole" and "true" measurements that indicate Edinburgh "is farther from of the South Pole than London", and the premise that, For all X and Y, "If X is "farther from of South Pole than Y" then "X is north of Y", but the reader will can troubles if one were to go the wrong way over the North Pole, etc. etc. wvbaileyWvbailey 21:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anarchist law

Anarchist law should be merged here because it's the only form of law compatible with anarchism. Anarchism necessarily rejects positive law because positive law is the construction of a government. Anarchism rejects government and any authority with the capacity to create formal law. When anarchists talk about law in anarchy, they appear universally to mean natural law. Sarge Baldy 00:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

why have Anarchist law then, when Natural law already exists? Why pick different terms for concepts that have existed already for centuries on end? Intangible 02:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

it would be inappropriate to merge Anarchist Law with Natural Law. The Natural Law page is bad enough already without being made more confusing by including Anarchy. The concepts are distinct. It may be appropriate for the Anarchist Law page to refer to Natural Law but it would not be especially appropriate for the Natural Law page to include a section on Anarchist Law, whatever that might mean.

[edit] Merge

This page should not be merged with natural law because while natural law is a broad and extensive topic in many disciplines, this page only discusses the concept of "law of nature" as it applies to Hobbes' political theory. Instead, this page should be titled something like "Law of Nature (Hobbesian)" as opposed to "Law of Nature (percept)." Zschaps 18:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Teleological?

This theory is NOT Teleological. Teleological ethical theories are concerned with concequences, Natural Law is not.--Tellebug 14:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate spellings

Should not Ius naturale redirect here? 131.111.8.96 08:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Daoism?

I think Daoism should be mentioned somewhere on this page. The base idea of the Dao is that there is universal, not written laws, which seems to fit well withen the ideas of natural law.

[edit] Hobbes' natural law

"There are nine Laws..." is that so? In my book of Leviathan there are nineteen laws! Golf Bravo 18:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

There seem to be only 3 theological virtues. I deleted the obvious vandalism

See: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2062.htm

[edit] Religious and secular natural law theories

The page as it stands has a religious bent to it that is appropriate to only some strands of natural law. The Stoics, for example, had a secular natural law, one that was distinguished from divine law rather than an expression of it. It was Thomas Aquinas who connected them, and it is only in his system that natural law and natural right are one and in which Aristotle stands as the founder of natural law. I will rework the page to account for this. RJC ^Talk 18:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Having begun the editing process, I became aware that I was making too many changes to summarize and justify in the edit summary, and will list them here. In general, I have removed those references which have the flavor of "we ought to accept natural law because it forms the foundation of the thought of such-and-such, someone we all recognize as a great man," or "natural law underlies all that is good and valuable in our tradition."

• I have rewritten the opening paragraph to make it more accurate and comprehensive. I have moved much of the material from the initial lead section to the body of the article in order to comply with wikipedia style.
• I was unable to understand As a genre, natural law is the law of nature—that is, the principle that some things are as they are, because that is how they are. This use is especially valid in Scotland, where "natural law" operates as a genre of law parallel to both civil and criminal law, and its discussion is not limited to human beings. and so removed it; if anyone can make sense of this, please clean it up and put it somewhere below the table of contents.
• I think the opening paragraph of the "History" section was slapdash, and so have deleted it. It had the flavor of someone trying to say everything they thought important about natural law, rather than of an introduction to the section on history.
• I have added a section on Aristotle in the natural law tradition, as there seems to be considerable agreement among the editors of this article that Aristotle belongs in it.
• I have expanded the section on the Stoics in the history section, contrasting them with Aristotle to a greater degree.
• I have put most of the section on "Hobbes' natural law" into the historical section.
• I have put the discussion of contemporary Catholic views into its own section, and have put most of the details about Aquinas' system here rather than in the historical section. I did this because I cannot verify any of the information here, and thought that whoever initially wrote this was stating their own understanding, which would have been gained by contemporary Catholic education. I have left the assertion that Protestant churches buy into this, though I downgraded the number that do so from "most" to "some", and asked that this fact be verified. Considering that Luther railed against Aquinas' synthesis, a synthesis that at bottom involved the incorporation of natural law as distinct from yet compatible with divine law, I'd think it strange that most Protestants actually agree with the Pope on this one. I know that Anglicans had a natural law teaching, but does it really play a large role anymore? Not being a Christian myself, I'm not the one to check this fact.
• Under contemporary jurisprudence, I have restored that "natural law" theory which opposes positivism as an adequate understanding of what we mean by the word "law", and have tidied things up a bit.

RJC ^Talk 22:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Natural Law is from God

RJC, first of all, in the following sentence, the antecedent of the word its is number: "Despite its pagan origins, a number …" The number does not have pagan origins, so this wording is improper. If you meant that natural law has pagan origins, then say, "Despite the pagan origins of natural law, …" Secondly, natural law is not of pagan origin. It comes directly from God. Blackstone, Aquinas, Locke, et al. believed and taught this. Emote 05:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You may be correct about the antecedent of its. However, to assert that we cannot say that natural law has pagan origins because it comes directely from God is a flagrant violation of NPOV. The article is discussing a theory, and the theory has its origins in Stoic philosophy, which was conducted by men raised in a pagan society. That Blackstone, Aquinas, et al. thought that natural law comes from God is a fact, and is noted in the article; that this is true is contested, and in any case beyond the scope of the article. RJC ^Talk 21:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I marked my changes as minor edits because they were in fact minor edits. I made grammatical alterations to the sentence. Now that you have corrected the grammatical problem and reinserted the phrase, it would no longer be a minor edit for me to delete that phrase.

I would like to point out that I did not make any assertions in the article about the origins of natural law, so I have no idea why you're accusing me of violating NPOV. Also, supposing that it is a violation of NPOV for me to say that natural law originates with God, it would correlatively be a violation for you to say that it has pagan origins. If anyone is violating NPOV, it is you because your ideas are the only ones represented in the article. The fact is that neither of us is guilty of an NPOV violation because there is no Wikipedia policy against presenting opinions in an article. What the policy says is that opinions must be presented from a NPOV.

As far as the actual content goes, I am content to leave the phrase as it currently stands. However, I intend to add my own paragraph in the article in order to balance the presentation of the issue. Fair enough? Emote 23:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Your grammatical alteration to the sentence was supported on the talk page with reference to your opinion that the source of natural law is God, which is a substantive reason for deletion. Therefore, according to Help:Minor edit, you should not have checked the minor edit box. A minor edit would have been for you to reword the clause in question to its present state. Second, if a change you make to the article can be supported only by your POV, you have not abided by NPOV; cf. Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ. Third, my saying that the natural law tradition predates Christianity, coming from the Stoics, does not violate NPOV if it is a fact — which it is. The ideas represented in the article are not mine, which can be verified by the fact that there are citations; cf. Wikipedia:Verifiability. As to your final point, there is an official policy against presenting opinions in an article: Wikipedia:No original research. I encourage you to modify the article as necessary, and to improve it. I agree with you that it could certainly use it. I presume, though I may be entirely wrong, that the view of natural law you feel is missing would fall under the heading of Contemporary Catholic Understanding, and you can no doubt find reliable sources that suggest that the details of your view are widely held. RJC ^Talk 00:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

When I first made the deletion, I stated my purpose in the summary as follows: "removed clause containing ambiguous pronoun." I didn't know what the antecedent was, so how could I have changed the wording to its present state? You then reverted my changes without actually fixing the problem. In your summary you clarified the antecedent to me, but you apparently saw no need to change it in the article. I once again deleted the phrase and posted my reasoning here on the talk page. You will notice that I even suggested a possible rewording for you to use, but I didn't want to make the change myself since I had no clue what its was. If you had a good guess as to what it was referring to, I would let you make the change. My secondary comment about the origin of natural law was for your own personal edification, as is the following Blackstone quotation:

As a man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker's will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws.

I suggest to you that natural law predates Christianity because it predates humanity. The Stoics may very well have influenced natural law theory, but they did not create natural law itself. I have no clue where you got such an idea (i.e., I've never heard it before), and I see no citations in the article to support that claim.

With regard to the NPOV question, I refer you to the five pillars of Wikipedia: "We strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view." Notice that, contrary to your understanding, the policy does not prohibit presenting points of view—only advocating points of view. --Emote 08:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I see. I seem to have misunderstood the purpose behind some of your edits. I agree that any natural law, to be a natural law, would have to predate the first articulations of the natural law — were such a thing to exist. But we are not discussing the truth about natural law, any more than an article on angels would be the proper forum for discussing the truth about angels. "Natural law comes from God" violates NPOV; "Thomas Aquinas said that natural law comes from God" does not, especially when discussing his theory of natural law. Regarding the Stoics, the claim is not that they created natural law (which would be true only if natural law did not exist), but rather that they were the first in the West to articulate a natural law theory. This claim is cited in in the article, currently note 13. But, this said, I look forward to seeing the kinds of edits you think necessary. RJC ^Talk 14:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted an edit that changed "Despite the pagan origins of natural law theory" to "Despite the supposed Stoic origins of the articulation of natural law theory in the West," which was made following the above conversation. I did so for a couple of reasons. First, the origins of natural law in the West are not supposedly pagan or Stoic, but simply are. Natural law itself may extend back before the Big Bang, but natural law theory does not. Second, the significance of this theory's adoption into Christian theology by the Church Fathers is concealed by replacing "pagan" with "Stoic." My third reason was a matter of style: the new version was cumbersome. I hope this meets with common approval. RJC ^Talk 21:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You look forward to seeing the kinds of edits I think necessary so that you can simply revert them over and over and over again—how original. You claim to know the exact time that natural law theory first appeared on the earth, so I ask you to prove that it never existed in any form whatsoever prior to these non-Stoic pagans who you think invented it. In the mean time, I dispute your unsubstantiated assertions. --Emote 23:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we have a major misunderstanding here. The Stoics were pagans: I'm not speaking of non-Stoic pagans here. Anything said by the Stoics was by definition said by pagans. The fact that they were pagans is the important thing in this sentence; otherwise, there would nothing interesting about the fact that the Church fathers adopted natural law terminology. If you desire evidence that scholarly opinion is that natural law theory was developed by the pagan Stoics, please read the section of the article on Stoic natural law: it cites the International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences as a reliable source. You can also check the Encyclopedia Britannica entry for natural law. You, on the other hand, have provided no explanation for your edits, and you deny the only explanation I can think of that describes the tenor of your edits (viz. that you believe natural law to come from God, and insist that the article reflect this). I gather this from the fact that the only thing you seem to be objecting to is the linkage between natural law and pagans. Please correct what I hope is my misperception on this point. RJC ^Talk 23:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

And, unsurprisingly, you revert my changes once again. No one is allowed to delete, add to, or otherwise challenge your unverified statements. That, my dear, is a violation of NPOV.

The section on Stoic natural law reads as follows: "The development of this tradition of natural justice into one of natural law is usually attributed to the Stoics" (emphasis mine). In other words, it's a disputed issue. Also, you will notice that the sentence lacks a reference and is therefore also unverified.

You palpably refuse to substantiate your claims. You like to throw out vague references to sources like Encyclopedia Britannica as if they support your position, yet you never seem to know the specific quotation or the page number. If you were to cite a reference correctly, you might have a little more credibility than when you say things like, "Check the Encyclopedia Britannica entry."

Yes, I believe that natural law comes from God. However, although I intend to do so in the future, I have heretofore not once made a change to the article that even slightly hints at the idea that natural law comes from God. Nevertheless, you falsely accuse me of "insisting" that the article reflect my views.

[edit] Explanations for all of my edits to date

1. Grammar: removed ambiguous pronoun phrase
2. Grammar: removed ambiguous pronoun phrase
3. Content: added qualifiers and words like "supposed" in order to bring the article into conformity with NPOV policies
4. Content: requested sources for statements which RJC stated as undisputed fact

You have objected to all these changes. I am curious to see whether you are audacious enough to revert my challenge of the neutrality of the section on Christian natural law. --Emote 01:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction is not an easy read

The introduction needs a major rework:

• The readability scores of the introduction are no where near expected levels of an encyclopedia. It is probably perfect for a legal textbook.
• The second and third sentences of the first paragraph and the second paragraph do not further explain what natural law is. These would be better moved to a new section below in a title like "relationship to other laws".

That leaves us with the following:

Natural law or the law of nature (Latin lex naturalis) is a law whose content is set by nature, and that therefore has validity everywhere. Natural law can be used synonymously with natural justice or natural right (Latin ius naturale), although most contemporary political and legal theorists separate the two.

If the above is explained further, I'd say the introduction would be moving in the right direction. Mbubel 16:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation request

Is this case still active or can I close it? --Ideogram 01:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The dispute remains unresolved so far.—Emote _{Talk Page} 21:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

One of the mediators suggested that the opening sentence of "Christian Natural Law" be rewritten to "Despite pagan associations with natural law theory …" instead of (1) "Despite the pagan origins of natural law theory …" and (2) "Despite the supposed pagan origins …" This would resolve the problem that even the first alternative has been read by some to deny the possibility that natural law itself may come from God, without calling into doubt, as the second does, that the Stoics spoke of something called natural law before it was spoken of by the Church Fathers and that the latter were familiar with this tradition. I think this is workable, and have altered the article accordingly. RJC ^Talk 20:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I accept the suggested compromise wording. However, before the case is closed and while we still have a mediator involved, I should bring up the fact that the following phrasing seems to violate NPOV: "the early Church Fathers sought to incorporate it [natural law theory] into Christianity …" This wording implies that natural law theory originated with the pagans and later was added to Christianity, whereas I contend that it originated in the Jewish culture (with Moses, Elijah, David, et al.) and naturally flowed into Christian thought from Jewish background. I bring this up now only because we are likely to disagree on how it should be rephrased.—Emote _{Talk Page} 03:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay. It's good we got this resolved. Regarding the passage on "incorporation" you refer to, is there any source that says that natural law theory began with the Israelites, and that it was this that influenced the Church Fathers rather than Stoic tradition? I ask because the law of the Torah is explicitly divine, and every theologian discussed in this section (with the exception of Gratian) distinguishes between natural and divine laws, as does the article in the International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences from which the definition of natural law used in this article is drawn. Also, there is no Biblical or Talmudic Hebrew word for nature, and the account of creation in Genesis has been read as an explicit denial of the existence of "nature" at all, so I would be surprised to discover a natural law teaching. But, if there is a reliable source that supports an Israelite pedigree for natural law theory among the Church Fathers, I agree that the article should be rewritten in some way or another to reflect the fact that there is disagreement regarding the relative influences of Stoic and Israelite thought on Christian natural law. RJC ^Talk 17:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I have closed the case as it seems a resolution has been reached. --Mechcozmo 01:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Natural Forum

Is Natural Forum part of Natural Law? 217.42.171.97 01:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

True natural law

My gosh it looks like no one can truely define Natural law, I wish all the idiots would go into a bag and go away.

Natural Law was founded by Aquinas with his christian theology and also Aristotles Effective and Final cause, the theory it self takes a very legalism stance (Such as Kant), and implies Primary and secondary principles, the primary are called the God intended purposes and include:

Reproduction Worship Learning Living Harmoniuosly (sp)

The secondary follow what is called ratio recta, which are basically conditions whic must unhold such laws which follow Catholic laws such as the primary, such as Marriage means not having an affair, althought Jesus said it was ok when the partner was dead while St John said you can only marry once as when you did you formed a covernt.

That is a brief summary for A level students and people who want to know what Natrual law is basically abount, and it has nothing to do with actual nature. NOTHING!!

--Unsigned comment by 88.109.219.39 16:32, 13 April 2007.

Actually, Aquinas got his ideas for natural moral law from Isidore of Spain (quoted in Summa Theologica); natural moral law originated with the Stoics from Persia, and were introduced to Europe by Alexander the Great. They probably originated in Zoroatrianism. It seems a section should be added re: Locke, also on the US Constitution (all writers of it believed in Natural Moral LAw in one way or another), and on Jeremy Bentham and Utilitarianism, which rejected Natural Law; this is of importance since Natural Moral Law is never mentioned in Law Schools in the US today. Comments? A E Francis 19:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure about the link between Stoicism and Zoroastrianism — have you got a source for this? Also, I thought that Locke was dealt with under Liberal Natural Law. I'm not sure what Bentham's arguments against natural law were, but that should probably be in the page. As it stands, it is something of a hodge-podge. RJC ^Talk 23:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

A conception of "natural law" was promoted by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and indeed, the Natural Law Party article links back here; should this particular take on the theory be discussed in this article? B7T (talk) 19:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say certainly not. The ideology of a now-defunct political party, one that never achieved more than fringe status, is not significant in contemporary or past issues involving natural law. Including references to it here would grant undue weight to that particular viewpoint. Those views have pages of their own to describe them. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 07:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)