Talk:Natural history

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Contents 1 Natural History in Education 2 POV 3 Rhode Island 4 Ernest Thompson Seton 5 Günther Witzany 6 Quotation? 7 geology and climatology 8 Environment of foo 8.1 Reply to Hike395

[edit] Natural History in Education

According to how "Natural History" is described in this article, I believe it relates to an area of study (including field trips) that has been incorporated into public education, in the primary and junior-high levels. I'm sure that private schools often have this component, too.

I know that high schools begin to specialize, with biology being its own subject, and maybe some of the other components of Natrural history also are being taught in narrow-focus classes. Be that as it may.

In any case, I think the article would be more inclusive and fleshed-out if there was something in it on how natural history continues to be woven into education. -J.R.

[edit] POV

This was Recently added; I've cut it for reasons explained below: "In 21st century it actually befits the increased understanding of the web of life, connections among ecosystems, organic and inorganic parts of the planet, and the relationships between the whole and the cosmos in general."

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but saying that it "befits the increased understanding…" is the kind of expression of opinion that should not be in the narrative voice of a Wikipedia article. It would be great if you could cite someone authoritative saying this, but we can't say it ourselves in the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:09, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rhode Island

Rhode Island Natural History Survey (in the external links) seems a bit narrow and specific; the other links are mostly museums and societies that present/study natural history worldwide, not in one very small region. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ernest Thompson Seton

We already have an article on Ernest Thompson Seton. Perhaps one related link in this article would be appropriate, but the following, which I cut from the article, is excessive and amounted to spam.

[Start cut material]

Ernest Thompson Seton Cimarron Museum

• Works by Ernest Thompson Seton at Project Gutenberg
  • Ernest Thompson Seton Institute
    • SETON'S SCIENTIFIC COLLECTIONS AT PHILMONT

[End cut material] - Jmabel | Talk 00:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Günther Witzany

Apologies: I know only a little about Günther Witzany, but how exactly is his work a reference for anything in this article, and what does his work have to do with "natural history" in the sense used here? I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just trying to get clarification. - Jmabel | Talk 07:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotation?

The article includes this paragraph:

Natural history is the scientific study of plants and animals in their natural environments. It is concerned with levels of organization from the individual organism to the ecosystem, and stresses identification, life history, distribution, abundance, and inter-relationships. It often and appropriately includes an esthetic component. S.G.Herman.

So, is this a quotation? And, if so, from where, exactly? - Jmabel | Talk 08:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] geology and climatology

The article says 'Natural history' includes "parts of geology and climatology" but does not other explain or expand on this. With this thin information, it is difficult to figure out what should be in 'natural history' categories and what should not be. Is there any help somewhere? Hmains 03:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I've heard the term "geologic history" as well - is that a legitimate term? If so, what's its relation to "natural history"? Is one part of the other, or is one about rocks/soil/water while the other concerns plants/animals? -Pete 20:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to mention, yes, geologic history is a legitimate term. —Viriditas | Talk 20:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I've been reading some books on Natural history, so I can help out. To answer Hmains and Pete, yes, geology and climatology are both part of natural history. Geologic history in terms of natural history, is usually discussed in relation to the geography of a particular area. So, for example, a Natural history of Hawaii would discuss volcanology, the evolution of Hawaiian volcanoes, the terrestrial and ocean environment, climate, flora and fauna, and so on. This is one of the books I'm looking at:[1]. "This book brings together primary source materials on major theme in Hawaiian natural history: the geological process that have built the Islands; the physical factors that influence the Islands' terrestrial ecosystems; the dynamics of the sea that support coral reefs, fish, and mollusks; the peculiarities of animals and plants that have evolved in the Islands and are found nowhere else; and the human impact on the land, plants, and animals." I've been looking at a few other books and they all have the same/similar structure. It may help if I list the topics and categories discussed. In the meantime, Pete, check out how geologic history in terms of the Natural history of Chaco Canyon is handled in Chaco_Canyon#Geology. —Viriditas | Talk 12:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

My point is: however much some may write, the 'Natural history' article does not say much beyond 'plants' and 'animals': not climate, not geologic history, not human prehistory, etc Generally, WP categories should be based on the content of WP articles, not anything else. So the 'natural history' article needs to be re-written and accepted by WP editors before anything else changes. Hmains 17:56, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The lack of specific information in an article does not justify inaccurate categorization. Feel free to browse the external links section and look at books and papers off-line. —Viriditas | Talk 03:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Environment of foo

We have all these 'Natural history of foo' categories for each country and they are all subcategories of their 'Environment of foo' category which is in turn a subcat of the higher level 'foo' category for the country. We have at least one editor who says this is not right, that natural history is not part of environment, and objects to extending this same category scheme to the US state level--without saying where the natural history category should end up. What is correct? Where can this argument be justified by what is found in WP? Hmains 05:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

In the context of Natural history of foo, Environment of foo is supposed to be a subcategory. The current scheme is backwards. We don't justify arguments by what is found on Wikipedia. Look at any book on natural history and you will see that it contains environment-related articles, such as physical geography, wildlife, and climate, and many others. Start with A Natural History of California (1995) and A Natural History of the Hawaiian Islands (1994). Currently, if you go to, let's say, Category:Environment of Costa Rica the opposite scheme is in place. This needs to be fixed. I can't see why you would want to "extend" an inaccurate category scheme. —Viriditas | Talk 11:53, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think what is happening here is that Hmains is looking inside WP for clues for the category system, while Viriditas is looking outside. These are not leading to the same result. This leads to some questions in my mind:

1. Is there any compromise here? If there are arguments for nesting category A within category B and B within A, should they perhaps be sister categories instead of nesting?
2. Is there any guidance in WP:CAT or WP:MOS for preferring the inside-looking over outside-looking, or visa versa?
3. Is there a better place for this discussion? For example, I can imagine that the folks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment or Wikipedia:WikiProject Ecology or Wikipedia:WikiProject Biology may care deeply about this.

Thanks! hike395 15:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• Item 9 in WP category guidelines states: "An article should normally possess all the referenced information necessary to demonstrate that it belongs in each of its categories. Avoid including categories in an article if the article itself doesn't adequately show it belongs there. For example, avoid placing a category for a profession or organization members or award unless the article provides some verification that the placement is accurate." Nothing stated about looking elsewhere for categories. Hmains 16:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Hike395

1. It is true that Hmains claims that he is basing his categorization on WP, but he actually isn't. For example, Hmains writes: "...the 'Natural history' article does not say much beyond 'plants' and 'animals': not climate, not geologic history, not human prehistory, etc Generally, WP categories should be based on the content of WP articles, not anything else. So the 'natural history' article needs to be re-written and accepted by WP editors before anything else changes." This is false. In fact, the natural history article does mention these things, and nothing it states needs to be "re-written" and "accepted". If Hmains had familiarized himself with the topic on Wikipedia, he would see that natural history articles do cover these topics. Articles like, Natural history, Indian natural history, Natural history of Australia, and the museums listed in Category:Natural history museums all cover this topic. Additionally, many Geography articles have natural history sections that cover this material.
2. Sister categorization is certainly an acceptable compromise, as multiple categories will solve the problem. So for example, instead of adding Category:Environment of California to Category:Natural history of California in order to access the climate cats, we just add Category:Climate of California instead. —Viriditas | Talk 22:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)