Talk:Native Americans

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This article is part of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, which collaborates on Native American, First Nations, Inuit, Métis and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:
1 Rename? || 2 Aboriginal American? || 3 Tribes and states || 4 North American bias || 5 Cultural characteristics || 6 North and South America - bogus distinction? || 7 Removed material || 7.1 What is the best name for this group of people? || 8 Keeping spirits up || 9 Focus again, and languages || 10 "Native American" outside US and Canada || 11 Classification by regions || 12 Native Americans in Latin American coutries || 13 Removed tribes || 14 USA focus again || 15 Athabascan migration || 16 Treatment of offensive terms || 17 Disambiguation || 18 Resourses, external links || 19 Métis || 20 Disambiguation style || 21 moved classification || 22 "Native American" and internal migrations || 23 comments and POV moved from article || 24 this passage seems a little strong || 25 Structure || 26 Indian Boarding Schools || 27 Genocide || 28 International translations || 29 Subgroups needed || 30 Some edits || 31 templates || 32 Bering Straight Land Bridge Theory
1 Map || 2 Early History || 3 Ancient American cultures || 4 religion? || 5 Former Usage of 'Native' || 6 In the Second Paragraph || 7 usage of "Native American" || 8 Connection to Chinese || 9 Origin of the term "Indians" || 10 Use of term "Native American" || 11 Break out section on the U.S.? || 12 Which name? section || 13 Indigenous peoples of the Americas || 14 moving forward || 14.1 Requested move || 14.1.1 Discussion || 14.2 Four questions
1 American Indians in the United States || 2 Figures of Amerindians in Argentina || 3 American Indians is a less offensive term than Native American || 4 Finalizing the US version o 4.1 Initial proposal o 4.2 Response o 4.3 Observations || 5 Native American Redirect || 6 Bot? || 7 Just for laughs... || 8 Ongoing disambiguation: you can help!

Contents

[edit] Singular vs plural titles

Wikipedia policy is to use the singular for page titles, counter-intuitive as that sometimes might seem. The other race/ethnicity pages for example, such as [[Chinese American], use the singular. Any objections to moving this page to Native American?--Nectar T 22:20, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd rather it stays as Native Americans. The singular-use policy might be suitable for articles on inanimate objects, etc, but when ethnic or other groupings of humans are concerned, the plural/collective form seems to be more "natural", and also one which is widely used. Consider for example, Jutes, Anglo-Saxons, Normans, etc. The subject matter of articles in this vein focuses on collective, not individual, characteristics. See also the many articles such as French people (not French person), English people, German people, and so on. And, to recycle an argument made elsewhere, we have articles such as Celtic languages not Celtic language, since to use the singular form would wrongly imply that there is one Celtic language, when there are actually several. Similarly, there is not one Native American people, but many, distinct peoples.--cjllw | TALK 22:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Then by that logic, wouldn't the ideal page name actually be "Native American peoples"? "Native Americans" doesn't imply multiple peoples, it implies multiple persons. -Silence 23:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, possibly the most specific (least ambiguous) title would indeed be something like "Native American peoples". However, "Native Americans" would seem to be an acceptable shorthand for "Native American peoples" (or "indigenous peoples of the Americas", even), in the same way that "Anglo-Saxons" is shorthand for "Anglo-Saxon people", "Normans" for "Norman people", &c. As a practical consideration, we won't be able to dispense with "Native Americans" by itself anyway, as there are 100's of links to it (there used to be a whole lot more before the recent efforts to dab Native Americans in the United States & others), and whatever we do future editors will continue to add more links to it. As amply demonstrated by the months of discussion which preceded turning Native Americans into its current dab format, there's no universal agreement on what the term covers (see also Native American name controversy), and I'd be reluctant to start up yet another round of article-renaming discussion. But that's merely my opinion; other might be happier to see it changed again, I'm inclined to leave well enough alone at this point.--cjllw | TALK 00:39, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

While disambiguating, I've noticed a couple of articles referring to Native Americans in Canada or Mexico. Reading through the articles these references appear to be most related to the Native Americans of the United States people. However, as this article only deals with the United States, does a new article need to be created; or, do we simply need to direct these articles to Native Americans of the United States? Comments please. Thaagenson 16:10, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

After reviewing the article Indigenous peoples of the Americas I've found that "Candian Indians" should be pointed to Aboriginal peoples in Canada. I've had no such luck finding a disambiguation for "Mexican Indians" Thaagenson 16:20, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Further review shows that "Canadian Indians" can be further disambiguated to First Nations Thaagenson 16:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, Native Americans of the United States is a misleading title - the tribes were not bounded by the current U.S. boundaries, so the article really covers Native Americans whose territory includes the United States. Ideally, it should be moved to something like Indigenous people of North America, but that would be a logistical nightmare at this point. BD2412 T 16:54, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
The question now is should we direct all Native American links to the united states page when they refer to Native Americans in North America? This would be a quick fix and later if the page is renamed the links could be easilly switched with a bot to the new page. Thaagenson 17:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with BD above that further extensive pg moves would be problematic at this point; it was a painful-enough exercise to get to the current state of affairs, as the lengthy discussions above demonstrate. The current situation is still probably not ideal, however.
Even though in certain cases the traditional lands of several indigenous peoples straddle contemporary country borders, I do think that collective articles on a country's indigenous peoples serve a useful purpose, insofar as they can be used to discuss their common experiences with the regulations and attitudes of that country. There are presently such articles for the US, Canada and Brazil, and perhaps one or two others- there is not one for Mexico that I am aware of. So when disambiguating Native Americans, you can use the country-specific one; if there is not a country-specific article, then either one could be created, or else just use Indigenous peoples of the Americas for now. In particular, if the context could refer to indigenous peoples/Native Americans/American Indians in both the US and Canada, one possible solution would be to use both Native Americans in the United States / First Nations.--cjllw | TALK 22:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
We had a similar discussion in the War of 1812 Talk page where First Nations/Indians/Natives were quite important and fought on both sides. The quasi-consensus solution (one dissident) was to use North American Indians, which currently redirects to Indigenous peoples of the Americas but could have its own article eventually. That term, although not as extensively used as the others, was seen as the least ambiguous. Luigizanasi 23:49, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of famous...

Removed from article: "==Notable Indigenous American Descendents==

This page is only a disambiguation page. This sort of information does not belong here - the most likely location, for it, if verifiable, would be List of Native Americans. Rmhermen 17:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

ṣ[[Category:]]what do men and women do (jobs)?°72.89.236.195 13:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] native american surnames

quick question, forgive my ignorance but did native americans in the united states and canada come to adopt to european sounding names or were these names forced upon them? just a little curious how did native americans today come to have surnames such as "schmidt" and "weiss". 205.188.117.73 23:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

    • RESPONSE**

It came an many forms. Boarding schools played a huge part in changing names. It was another assimilation implementation, along with cutting hair to look more "civilized", dressing in anglo clothing, taking the young away from their homes and more. My grandfather (a child of boarding schools) had a Diné (Navajo) name that was changed to an English name with a German last name. Nuns couldn't pronouce many names so changing it was easier for them. The quote used many times was "Save the Man, Kill the Indian". Here's a link to see a before and after shot of a Diné person. http://www.heard.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=362&srcid=367 (fyi: He went back to his homeland and continued to live as he did before. With his People on his homeland. )

Well, that didn't happen. Natives are still around (I believe 550+ nations/ tribes) . As well, our cultures and traditions are still with us, with varying degrees in each region. Inter-marriage with non-natives also brought along different last names. Please remember just because our names are not "Indian" doesn't not diminish our identity as People of our respective tribes. But it does remind us of our country's invisible history 140.99.37.15 23:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Nan

[edit] Recent changes.

I don't see the point in the link for "a person from the Americas." I have never, ever, ever seen Native American used to reference a modern person born in the American continents, except perhaps sarcastically. Not in American, not in British, and not in international contexts. Too much risk of confusion. Also, there's no good article to link to. Did someone who meant "person from the Americas" really want to click on North America? The best option would be Americas, I guess, but there is no such article on "American (continent) people" (which is a redirect to Demographics of the US).

Also, even if you disagree on that point, I would propose that you needn't have reverted my other changes. The current version has the evil "is a term," Indigenous peoples of the Americas is now a redirect to Native Americans in the United States, Native Americans in the United States pointlessly appears twice, and Pacific Islanders are not Native Americans practically by definition. I also don't see the problem with indenting to show when one group is part of another group.

Looking in the history, I'm thinking that the older version was considerably better, despite the POV political angle. This is something where a bit of an explanation can help as opposed to the bare links there currently. While MoS:DAB does prefer brevity, SOME explanation is clearly useful here. SnowFire 20:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Nativists do refer to Native American in that different sense, hence the entry. Also Native Hawaiians and most Alaska Native are not included in the conventional definition of Native American as discussed in the Native American in the United States article - so indentation is incorrect. Pacific Islanders are included in the term in a rarely used inclusive definition, hence the inclusion here. Rmhermen 00:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to this page

I've changed this page to make it conform to standard disambiguation pages. A disambiguation page is not the place for a discussion of the reasons behind varying definitions for terms. All of the articles referenced describe specific points of view that are not shared by all of the world's English speakers. Most English speakers have no familiarity with the various political squabbles that have led to so many different definitions of the same term. An English speaker visiting this page does not necessarily have any existing ideas of what "native Americans" should mean (beyond its literal meaning), and thus the best one can do is direct him to other articles that discuss different (and often conflicting or overlapping) meanings used for the term by some groups in some contexts.

Describing indigenous people as "natives," for example, means virtually nothing to someone who is only familiar with the Englishd definitions of these terms, as they are practically synonyms. Anyone interested in the exact definition can visit the article. The other explanations formerly accompanying each article entry have the same problem: they all assume still other non-standard definitions for various words, and thus tell the reader nothing about what the article actually describes. The only way to find out what the article describes is to read it. When you have a term that has almost as many politically expedient definitions as it has letters, it is not practical to try to define any of these definitions on a disambiguation page, since you cannot do so without using other words that typically also have non-standard definitions of their own.

By simplifying this page to the maximum possible, I've restored NPOV (nothing on the page favors any particular group) and I've eliminated possible confusion (anyone who wants more detail on a specific definition can refer directly to the respective article). For the same reason, I've put the entries in alphabetical order, eliminating any other possible bias. Agateller 07:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting of disambiguation pages

Just so nobody adds paragraphs and other non-standard formatting to this page again, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). Spylab 03:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC) i love me!

[edit] Siberia?

I think we should take out this line, "It may also refer to the Native Americans of Siberia, the nativos indígenas", because it seems iffy. Indigenous Siberians are referred to in Spanish? Also, this is a dab page, and that line contains no link.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 15:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I took it out, mostly because we don't seem to have an article on them, but also because I don't think people who are not from the Americas are ever called "Native Americans". There are people who are related to indigenous Americans in Siberia, but no one will type in "Native Americans" looking for them. And obviously Siberians wouldn't refer to themselves in Spanish.--Cúchullain t/c 15:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Primary use

It seems clear, judging by common usage, incoming links, etc. that the primary use for the term "Native Americans" is Indigenous peoples of the Americas. I don't see any way around this. If someone disagrees, please speak up, and preferably, fix the many, many incoming links that ought to redirect to Indigenous peoples of the Americas.--Cúchullain t/c 06:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I do not come by this page via wikilinks; I come by it via the search box. I would propose that many drive-bys who search WP would search by typing "Native Americans" in the search box. This page is extremely helpful in directing me to the proper page. When I was redirected to the other article, I was lost and had to scan the whole article and guess at which link was most suitable. I see more harm than good done to the encyclopedia, navigation-wise, with this page as a automatic redirect.--Old Hoss 16:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
What were you looking for by typing in "Native Americans"? This isn't supposed to be a directory of groups, it's meant to disambiguate uses of the term "Native Americans", and most people who type in or click a link for Native Americans will be looking for Indigenous peoples of the Americas (if not Native Americans in the United States, since that term is largelly restricted to the US; other countries have other terms.)
But assuming it is kept where it is, the page is badly formated and includes much wrong material. Technically speaking, Brazilian Indians are not called "Native Americans" (definitely not by other Brazilians), that term is mostly restricted to native peoples in the United States. These links need to be weeded out. Additionally, the many, many incoming links will need to be fixed so they're not going to a disambig page, hopefully those who want the page to stay here will step up and correct that.--Cúchullain t/c 20:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally, as I was driving-by, I was expecting Native Americans in the United States, but then I noticed there were several other possibilities I did not consider. I would probably never actually type in the whole article name as it is quite cumbersome, so I would prefer this as a disambig. page, from a navigation point of view. You stated above this term is largely restricted to America, where I reside, so it would then follow that Native Americans in the United States would be a preferable redirect than Indigenous peoples of the Americas, however that page is also of interest. So I would reason that a disambig. page is proper and the reader can decide what they were looking for. As far as what links belong on the page, I cannot say as I am not an expert on this topic. Use your best judgment in weeding out the improper links and I am sure that will be satisfactory - if it is not, then an editor can just re-add them, NBD. As far as re-directs, there are only 62 in the (main) namespace, and it looks like about 90-95% of those are American-related, so I see little harm there. Regards.--Old Hoss 18:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should remain a disambig. Most of the pages I see linking here are better linked to Native Americans in the United States, but some (fewer) to the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Further the information on this page is correct. We really do call Brazilian Indians "Native Americans" as the term for many of us (U.S. citizens) means natives of the Americas not natives of the area now called the United States of America. The others mentioned are also defined as Native Americans in some U.S. laws although the don't fit the normal definition of the term. Rmhermen 18:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)