Talk:National University of San Marcos

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saint mark??? I dont think the name should be translated. the most prestigious school in Lima, Peru? I highly doubt. (anon)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.48.156.141 (talk • contribs) 7 March 2005

This kind of comments are definitively biased against San Marcos and i believe this kind of conduct shall not be allowed on the forum.HappyApple 02:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Questions

  • What is the (unnamed) fifth faculty founded in Spanish times? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • When was "National" added to the name of the university? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • Is there a citation not connected to the university itself for the university being the most prestigious in Peru? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • "Fray Thomas of Saint Martin" seems unlikely English. My guess is that this is an effort to translate the untranslatable, and should be "Fray Tomás de San Martín". -- Jmabel | Talk
    • "Fray" in Spanish is equivalent to the term "Brother" as used in English-speaking monasteries. Wikipedia suggests that "Fray" is equivalent to "Friar", but Spanish-English dictionaries differentiate between the terms. "Fraile" is Spanish for "Friar". -- Saska01

[edit] Base version

It will be best to converge first towards a readable, correct, well-organized and relatively brief version. Then, taking that version as our basis, we can add information we agree is relevant, and make edits - discussing controversial edits in the talk page, of course. I do not think a detailed discussion of every edit is in order when the thing being edited is essentially a poor translation of admissions documents done by one person, as opposed to the result of community consensus. PS - thanks to HappyApple for starting the page. Hasdrubal 19:05, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok, we will start all over again.
  • Once again, I believe that the motto is important, even if not all Universities on the country have one (as an Example, not all countries in the world have one, but that doesn't mean that the ones that have should not be stated).
  • About the people that have graduated from the UNMSM, Most of them are from Peruvian-related topics, and the fact that most of them do not have an article doesn't mean that they should be excluded. they should also be stated there, but in normal letters rather than links.
  • Also, the faculties are important. It gives an accurate information of what the University have.
  • I wouldn't said Strongest, but one of the finest Universities on Peru.

Glad to help, and I would make some changes on the page soon. Messhermit 21:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Latest updates

I am being impartial on the updates on this article regarding of the university in which i study.

Among others.HappyApple 03:12, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • I tend to agree with HappyApple here. Most of the more comprehensive articles about colleges and universities list the faculties/departments. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that a list of faculties would be noteworthy. I am still not sure that a listing of departments is necessary, though, of course, it is perfectly harmless. In Peruvian usage, the word "facultad" is closer to "department" than to "faculty". Hasdrubal 18:37, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and regarding "strongest", "finest", etc.; the current wording ("academically prominent") is fine and probably should stay. Of course, these are just relative terms.

Just to give outsiders an idea: in science x (where x will not be mentioned so as not to ruffle more feathers than are already ruffled), no university in Peru can be called a research centre; however,

(a) San Marcos, la Catolica and la UNI all have some talented people who have published a couple of papers in recognized international journals; (b) they have one reasonable research library on the subject, in common, at least as far as books are concerned; obvious financial constraints limit them when it comes to journals; (c) they try to keep up links with researchers abroad, and to place their better BA's in graduate schools elsewhere (as there are no real graduate schools in the subject in Peru, and there couldn't be at the present).

The newer private universities make a fair amount of income "teaching" x to the cognitively impaired children of financially gifted parents, but are not really serious at all about research in the matter, and would probably not recognize it if it bit them.

In general, among the universities with a wide range of departments in the sciences, San Marcos, la Catolica and la UNI are each an earnest attempt at what people elsewhere would call a research university. As I said, there are financial constraints.

All of the above is very POV, of course - this is a talk page. No offense is meant to specialized institutions (e.g., la Agraria) for which x falls outside the natural radius of interest, or, least of all, to the three universities praised above. Hasdrubal 18:49, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The UNMSM is recognise as one of the best universities on Lima. Medicine and Law are two of its most prominents colleges (even though there is a extrange campaing to give the "San Martín" this category). I don't think that any peruvian (or at least the people on Lima) need a citation to known this. About Private Universities, well, Its relevant to the page, so no further disscussion is needed. Messhermit 20:15, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Totally agree with Messhermit, although those universities published some research belonging to natural sciences, its certainly wrong to consider La Catolica at the same academic level as San Marcos or UNI,for over four centuries San Marcos has been a symbol for excellency and tradition in all sense for many peruvians and to consider la Catolica may match San Marcos is an insult.HappyApple 14:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Dear Messhermit -

as you can tell from the above, I am in complete agreement. I don't think there is anybody here who doubts that San Marcos is one of the best three or four in Peru in just about any given specialty. Hasdrubal 21:54, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

... anybody, that is, except for that silly anonymous person who wrote the first remark. Hasdrubal 21:55, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Following changes:

  • Added Copyright sign to university name.
  • Added Motto to University table.

Copyright sign was added becase seal is already registered and its part of intellectual property of the university. Motto is different then Latin name, However in the beginning the latin name was the official motto, nowadays it's different. HappyApple 22:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The use of a copyright symbol is a claim on the part of a copyright holder that it holds a copyright on a given item. There is no reason or need for us, as non-copyright holders, to participate in this particular game. -- Viajero 23:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article protection

Folks, I've unblocked HappyApple and protected this page so you can discuss and iron it out here. Thanks. Fuzheado | Talk 01:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We should start by looking to some problematic users on the article.
  • It is true that a vote has been giving in the Village Pump, no question about it. But there are also mechanism that allow this vote to be repeal. So lets being reasonable and avoid stating that "Its vote, Its decided".
  • Also, it worries me that some narrow-minded people once again believe that are owners of some of the articles. Wiki is a free encyclopedia, and it should be open to any recomendation.
  • Personaly, I find "Saint Mark" not offensive at all, but that doesn't mean that another user should be blocked by his insistence in used. Why a compromise can be reach? Maybe becouse some of the parties involved doesn't like the user's opinions?

Lets work for San Marcos, please? the oldest University of South America doesn't deserve this stub. Messhermit 02:32, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Voting:
Decision: After 3 days of voting, the majority has voted in favor of the university's original name and against the anglicized version. Thus, this is the only way the university should be called on wikipedia. --Tuomas hello 00:46, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is based on an elaborate structure of agreed-upon conventions for the sake of unity and consistency. Inevitably some people disagree with them, even I oppose a few, but we have to respect the communal decision-making process, as imperfect as it may be. We can't have editors unilaterally insisting on their own way of doing things. Wikipedia may be a "free" encyclopedia, but with that freedom comes a certain responsibility, and that is to respect its fundamental collaborative spirit of the project. In other words, Wikipedia is "free" in the sense that anyone may contribute, but it is not free in the sense that a user is at libety to contribute anything; contributions, no matter how insignificant, must adhere to our editorial standards. The sooner HappyApple learns to appreciate this, the better. -- Viajero 10:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Well, HappyApple is not the ONLY one who should learn some lessons. As I stated before, the vote is only one of the many ways to resolve disputes, it is not a mandatory option. And it can be repeal.
  • An agreement can be reach, IF SOME of the parties involved can disscuss them. So, I sugest that before someone make a comment about someone else mistakes, that look at his own actions before speak. Other way, it is once again narrow-minded and disrespectfull to the other Wikipedist.
Details are important for this page. UNMSM deserves it. Messhermit 19:46, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A clean and brief page is better than a long and confusing one, full of irrelevant details written in poor English. I don't have anything against the disposition of the bushes in the Parque Universitario, myself; still, most readers wouldn't think it very relevant. If this page ever becomes much richer than it is now, some details that are now irrelevant will become somewhat less irrelevant, relatively speaking. As it is - we should start by adding material that matters (if we add anything at all).

There have been many POV claims coming from HappyApple in the last few days regarding this page. I find them absurd; what POV, exactly, are all the others supposed to be imposing? I think HappyApple is simply upset at seeing his prose messed with; a natural reaction, but an inappropriate one in Wikipedia. Hasdrubal 19:53, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Clean, yes; brief, no. It is perfectly normal for an article to start with some short, highly readable sections, then go into whatever level of detail further down the page. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:01, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

My main point is that the process of going from a first draft to an agreed-upon first stable version may involve deletions. Hasdrubal 22:53, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] For later...

Once the page gets unprotected, the following two changes will have to be made:

"Parque Universitario" does not refer, strictly speaking, to La Casona, but to the park it faces (and partially surrounds). It is strongly associated in the collective mind with La Casona, but I haven't heard it being used as a metonym in quite the same way that, say, "Harvard Yard" is used to refer to part of Harvard's campus (mutatis mutandi).

The last sentence in the same section does not make that much sense as its stands. The meaning should be: when UNMSM was in La Casona, San Fernando was also downtown, but elsewhere; when the rest of UNMSM moved to the Ciudad Universitaria, San Fernando stayed put where it was (if I am not very mistaken).

Please, somebody, take care of editing the above as soon as it becomes actually possible - I'll have to focus completely on work this week. Hasdrubal 17:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Again, people of good heart - please take care of the following two edits. I would do them myself, but the page is protected right now.

- The Ciudad Universitaria is not in the outskirts (notice the sp. mistake in the page!) of metropolitan Lima, but, rather, in the outskirts of "Lima proper" (district of Lima). It is still near the geographical centre of Lima - the district of Lima is a small subset of metropolitan Lima. The wording should be changed to avoid giving a false impression. (La Agraria, for example, is in what most people would call the outskirts of Lima - namely, La Molina.)

- The University was not founded in response to a decree from above; rather (if I am not mistaken), the local clergy sent a petition to the king for official status (and funding, presumably). Here, again, we might give a little less detail in order to avoid being mistaken. Hasdrubal 18:03, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The entire second paragraph of the "History" section is written in poor English. That should be fixed. Also - the "Convent of Del Rosario" should be "Convento del Rosario"; it is redundant and ugly to have "of" and "Del" following each other ("Convent of of the Rosary"). Hasdrubal 18:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotect

I've unprotected the article. Thanks. Fuzheado | Talk 00:07, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] oldest?

According to List of oldest universities in continuous operation, the Universidad Autonoma de Santo Domingo, founded in 1538, is the oldest university in the Americas. Perhaps UNSM is the oldest in South America? -- Viajero 11:21, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Oldest on the continental mainland"? See also Talk:National Autonomous University of Mexico. Don't know about the various "cont. operation" claims. –Hajor 14:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I cut the following "Being the oldest university today does not necessarily means it was the first to be founded." That doesn't make sense, unless you are implying that there was an older university that no longer exists (and if there is, we should say so explicitly). -- Jmabel | Talk 02:55, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Law/Jurisprudence

Do I understand from a recent edit that "Law" and "Jurisprudence" are two different departments? Really? What are these respectively called in Spanish as departments at this university? I would expect a "facultad de Jurisprudencia" to be precisely a faculty of law. -- Jmabel | Talk July 3, 2005 23:32 (UTC)

Laws and Jurisprudence are not the same, hence there were two different faculties on San Marcos.
The Faculty of Law and Jurisprudence were merged later in the mid 20th century, nowadays there is not a "Faculty of Jurisprudence", and the official name for that department is Facultad de Derecho y Ciencias Politicas".HappyApple 4 July 2005 03:29 (UTC)
Clearly the words "laws" and "jurisprudence" are not identical words but normally they do refere to the identical academic curriculum. (1) You still haven't answered my question as to what the two faculties were called, respectively, in Spanish. (2) You haven't given any clue what the difference was between the curricula of the two faculties. -- Jmabel | Talk July 4, 2005 17:13 (UTC)
The spanish name for each one were Facultad de Derecho, Facultad de Jurisprudencia. The difference between the curricula were study of Philosophy, legal history, hermeneutics and historiography for the Faculty of Jurisprudence.HappyApple 5 July 2005 01:18 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Faculty and Students

Those numbers are inaccurate.

I made changes according to:

http://www.unmsm.edu.pe/ogpl/publicaciones/catalogo.htm

But still the numbers are not up to date.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.121.157.40 (talk • contribs) 30 November 2005

The numbers has been revised according to the website you provided, which surely is from UNMSM, changed the number of faculties to 20, as it states on [[1]].HappyApple 02:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


The number of faculties is still wrong. Faculty in english refers to a professor, while in Spanish the word "Facultad" refers to a school of a given University, as in for example School of Biology. The word you want to look for is "Docentes" in the very same document [[2]]. There are two types: "contratados" (part time) and "nombrados" (full time). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FGVillamon (talk • contribs) 5 Dec 2005.

Actually, you are wrong about the English. While "department" is more common in English than "faculty", "faculty" is perfectly acceptable. "Faculty" can also mean the entire professoriat of the university; an individual professor is a "faculty member", and you could say he (or she) "is faculty" (using the word as an adjective) but not he (or she) "is a faculty". "A faculty" is always a collective noun.
On the other hand, if you are just giving two counts for a university—"students" and "faculty"—then "faculty" would refer to the number of professors (and other teachers). However, "faculties" would not. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Point taken. Yes, it is a collective noun, I completely missed it. I was going by the examples posted above of other entries about other universities (in relation to number of faculty and students). As to whether the term "facultad" is the Spanish equivalent to the English "department", I must disagree. Usually a University, say is organized in schools and the schools in departments, a Spanish "universidad" is organized in "facultades", "facultades" in "escuelas" and "escuelas" in "departamentos". Schools are comparable to facultades and departments to escuelas (organization wise). Departamentos are created to warrant an specialization but they don't grant academic degrees. ----—Preceding unsigned comment added by FGVillamon (talk • contribs) 7 December 2005

Arguments from User:Jmabel about Department and Faculty are correct, in fact according to wikipedia [[3]] a faculty is a division of a university, in North America it seems this meaning is more closer to Departments, the question whether translation from escuelas and departamentos to english doesnt apply in the university infobox hence the issue was if the numbers were correct, those numbers have been revised as of 2002, probably they havent changed too much. HappyApple 19:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

(A little off-topic but) I assume FGVillamon knows what he's talking about. So, would a facultad be more like a college or school (2 terms nearly interchangeable, just a matter of which university) within a U.S. university? (e.g. School of Law, School of Engineering, College of Letters?) -- Jmabel | Talk 22:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a facultad would be more like a school, and again, this is an organization wise (burocracy) comparison. I went to University of San Marcos for my B.S. and to University of Wisconsin-Madison for my M.S., while it does not make me an expert on the off-topic subject, it gives me more perspective. FGVillamon 04:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe you have a point, but to keep arguing about this is irrelevant for infobox.HappyApple 04:58, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Logo or coat of arms?

I would like to open a discussion on whether to call the symbolic emblems "logos" or "coats of arms". I am on the opinion that the most proper name would be "coat of arms" as it fits better the translation for "escudo de armas", which is how it is called in Spanish. Correct me if I am wrong with the following. A logo is an identifying symbol while a coat of arms besides being an identifying symbol it is composed of elements carrying a meaning on their own. For example, the two columns with the "plux ultra" banner represent the "new world" according to the constitution acts. I am fine with "logos", I just want to know what other users think. FGVillamon 16:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

If it is considered an escudo de armas, then, yes, "coat of arms" would be correct. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I changed the css infobox to Infobox University a couple of edits back, and it seems to have been reverted along with the logo controversy. Can we consider the two issues separately? Is there any problem with Infobox University, or can I change it back? The reasons I have for converting it are: the file is shorter and easier for everyone to edit, and Infobox University is becoming a standard for such boxes. Cpastern 18:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I am using the infobox used at National Taiwan University article, which it seems to include much more information than Infobox University. However, if you want to change it, i feel you have to talk discuss this on National Taiwan University discussion page whether it's infobox is appropiate or not.--HappyApple 20:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the National Taiwan University infobox to Infobox University already. . . And I think the more relevant question is what is best for this article and university articles as a whole. In my opinion, the purpose of the infobox is not to include as much information as possible, but rather to give a brief overview of a few major characteristics of a university, and I think that Infobox University does that. Details should really be within the content of the article, not in an infobox. Another benefit of Infobox University is how much cleaner the edit file is- compare: edit diffs. If you check "what links here" at Infobox University you will see many many other articles use that Infobox, so I don't think the fact that one other university uses the complicated html-heavy box is good evidence for keeping it here. Cpastern 08:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Cpastern. Articles are moving away from HTML in the articles because they are difficult to edit, harder to read and scare away potential editors. I will add the infobox back. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 16:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Well i think Cpastern and Reflex Reaction 's rationale is correct (not need to change it again folks). By the way, aren't any other universities articles that are keeping older infoboxes ?HappyApple 22:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
We are both working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Colleges and Universities, sytematically consolidating country infoboxes and ensuring an adequate level of coverage - see also Template_talk:Infobox_University#Template_items_to_be_deleted --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 20:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logos

The section on logos was rather excessive, and probably did not belong in the page to begin with. Is there any other article on a university of similar length (viz., short) to the present one with such an outsized section on this subject? Hasdrubal 18:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] San Marcos/San Fernando

At the risk of further confusing everyone, I still maintain that although the Faculty of Medicine of San Fernando may have been chartered by Ferdinand VIII/Fernando VIII, who was no saint, it was named for Ferdinand III/Fernando III, who is still known as San Fernando. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.111.146.94 (talk • contribs) 12 May 2006

According to the university's official bulletin, the department of medicine was stablished in 1573 under the name of Real Colegio de Medicina (Royal college of medicine), but it wasn't a faculty at the time, its current status was institued in the late 18th century early 19th century, when it was promoted to Faculty level, renamed to Real Colegio de Medicina y Cirugía de San Fernando in honor to Ferdinand VII of Spain.HappyApple 00:55, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not uncommon to honor someone by naming something after the same saint after whom they were named. - Jmabel | Talk 05:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why does this article title have "(English)" in it?

Why does this article title have "(English)" in it? The title is not in English, so that can't be the reason (and it wouldn't be a good reason anyway). Is it to tell the reader that the article is in English? But that's hardly necessary, since this is the English Wikipedia. It seems to me that the parenthetical part is completely unnecessary, and the title here is totally different from the way any other university article is titled. --Rbraunwa 23:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that any of the non-Peruvians here care. I believe that at one point, one of the Peruvians had made it "National University of Saint Mark", which is downright silly. As far as I'm concerned, feel free to move it to the Spanish name, but do clean up all of the incoming links if you do so. (In any case, it should be no big deal, as long as all the correct redirects are here.) - Jmabel | Talk 18:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The name in spanish is "Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos". Then, why "National University of San Marcos"? And Major? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.230.235.215 (talk • contribs) 27 March 2007.

Mayor should only rarely be translated as "major". Usually, it is "bigger" or "larger"; here, it would probably best be "greater", but I doubt it is ever used in English translation. The few uses in English on the university's web site refer to it as San Marcos National University. Or, of course, we could use the original Spanish. - Jmabel | Talk 18:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The oldest university of América controversy

Well, I love the page, and I am living in New York for so long, preaching about that San Marcos is the oldest Univ. but having to deal with many, many people especially with the Dominicans, who claim the contrary, I have almost believed them. Well good arguments and facts now I have more "ammunition" to defend my position.
I am taking this opportunity to ask for your collaboration, with our entries and mostly with our "National Page", which I believe is locked or protected, and thus you have to get into the 'bureaucracy' to get in and finally edit it. I just came here so you may have a better chance for doing it so. Assuming that you are Peruvians, have time and want to do it in the first place. Like this page there are other many entries about our country Perú which needs our help, if we don't do it, who will then?
Many entries needs help, I am starting to work in several languages, but in here, in English, we are kind of messy, except for your page of course; for instance read how is written and what they are saying about our history in our own page. I think it needs more work, if we compare it with others pages then we know is true. Well see your contribs. You will start to see mine as well. thanks and Good Luck!! and sorry for use some of this space. Hope I didn't intrude. Last time if I did it so " arriba, arriba hasta las estrellas... en Wikipedia?". -JohnManuel 23:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


  • The Universidad Autónoma de Santo Domingo (Autonomous University of Santo Domingo) was founded in 1914, not in 1538. This university, in current Dominican Republic, expects to be a “primatial university of America” in spite of the fact that it holds, against every Latin American legislation of the time, a foundation illegally authorised by the Pope in 1538; it has been officially recognised by the monarchy just in 1747 like "Universidad de Santo Tomás de Aquino"; it has been prohibited by Royal Letter of 1758 the use of that false title insulting universities of Lima and Mexico. As if it were not enough, the Santo Tomás University was definitively extinguished in 1824, having no relationships with the current one (founded in 1914), because it is a new and different institution that seeks to recover for itself its colonial predecessor's history. The Universidad de San Marcos (San Marcos University) of Lima was also, and continue being, the oldest university in the world out of the European continent, founded on 12th May 1551, and for this reason it takes the deserved title of “dean of America” (the oldest, not necessarily the first), since it is the only university that survives, uninterruptedly, since the XVIth century. (Miguel Angel del Castillo M., 29-VIII-07)