Talk:National Service in Singapore

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[edit] Wong's statement on dual citizenship and national service

This paragraph currently in the article:

In 2006 , the Prime Minister in his National Day rally speech put forth the strategic importance of growing the population in Singapore and a fast way of doing that is to import more foreigners to become citizens. In a futher elaboration of this , the minister in charge of this bold initiative , Wong Kang Seng said that dual citizenship may be on the table in three years time. This is the closest hint that Singapore National Service may be abolish in the near future as it seems to be incompatible with a modern world where talents flow freely across borders.

is misinterpreting DPM's statement [1][2]. Dual citizenship is NOT on the table in the next 3 years, and there is no hint on abolishing National Service. --Vsion 14:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Time not ripe for dual citizenship Derrick A Paulo derrick@newstoday.com.sg

It has been less than 10 years since the debate on dual citizenship surfaced in earnest in Singapore. Each time, the door has been kept closed on this option. . But with the population challenge now growing, the Government is not about to throw away the key and close any option for good. . In a pre-National Day Rally interview, Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng told reporters that as far as this issue was concerned, Singapore would react to a changing world. But that time has not yet come. . "Until the time when we see that, indeed, the whole world has changed and everybody provides for dual citizenship, then we will have to revisit our position. So, I'm not ruling out that option. But it's not going to happen in the next one, two or three years," he said. . In the past, the call for dual citizenship was raised to keep Singaporeans from leaving. Now, it may apply equally to enable more foreigners to settle down in Singapore. . In either case, though, the policy considerations are the same. And National Service is a main one. . "For those who are here and don't have dual citizenship, they'll be very aggrieved that a person with dual citizenship has the option of not coming back, particularly when you have the Singapore Armed Forces, when you have a policy that depends on citizenship, and you need them in a time of emergency," said Mr Wong. . Currently, Singaporeans can only hold dual citizenship until the age of 21. They must then decide to drop one citizenship. . This is still a new issue, said Mr Wong, and a decision will have to wait "until we are a mature enough society, when we feel that, yes, the bonds among Singaporeans are so strong".

Derrick A Paulo derrick@newstoday.com.sg

It has been less than 10 years since the debate on dual citizenship surfaced in earnest in Singapore. Each time, the door has been kept closed on this option. . But with the population challenge now growing, the Government is not about to throw away the key and close any option for good. . In a pre-National Day Rally interview, Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng told reporters that as far as this issue was concerned, Singapore would react to a changing world. But that time has not yet come. . "Until the time when we see that, indeed, the whole world has changed and everybody provides for dual citizenship, then we will have to revisit our position. So, I'm not ruling out that option. But it's not going to happen in the next one, two or three years," he said. . In the past, the call for dual citizenship was raised to keep Singaporeans from leaving. Now, it may apply equally to enable more foreigners to settle down in Singapore. . In either case, though, the policy considerations are the same. And National Service is a main one. . "For those who are here and don't have dual citizenship, they'll be very aggrieved that a person with dual citizenship has the option of not coming back, particularly when you have the Singapore Armed Forces, when you have a policy that depends on citizenship, and you need them in a time of emergency," said Mr Wong. . Currently, Singaporeans can only hold dual citizenship until the age of 21. They must then decide to drop one citizenship. . This is still a new issue, said Mr Wong, and a decision will have to wait "until we are a mature enough society, when we feel that, yes, the bonds among Singaporeans are so strong". Derrick A Paulo derrick@newstoday.com.sg

It has been less than 10 years since the debate on dual citizenship surfaced in earnest in Singapore. Each time, the door has been kept closed on this option. . But with the population challenge now growing, the Government is not about to throw away the key and close any option for good. . In a pre-National Day Rally interview, Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng told reporters that as far as this issue was concerned, Singapore would react to a changing world. But that time has not yet come. . "Until the time when we see that, indeed, the whole world has changed and everybody provides for dual citizenship, then we will have to revisit our position. So, I'm not ruling out that option. But it's not going to happen in the next one, two or three years," he said. . In the past, the call for dual citizenship was raised to keep Singaporeans from leaving. Now, it may apply equally to enable more foreigners to settle down in Singapore. . In either case, though, the policy considerations are the same. And National Service is a main one. . "For those who are here and don't have dual citizenship, they'll be very aggrieved that a person with dual citizenship has the option of not coming back, particularly when you have the Singapore Armed Forces, when you have a policy that depends on citizenship, and you need them in a time of emergency," said Mr Wong. . Currently, Singaporeans can only hold dual citizenship until the age of 21. They must then decide to drop one citizenship. . This is still a new issue, said Mr Wong, and a decision will have to wait "until we are a mature enough society, when we feel that, yes, the bonds among Singaporeans are so strong". Derrick A Paulo derrick@newstoday.com.sg

It has been less than 10 years since the debate on dual citizenship surfaced in earnest in Singapore. Each time, the door has been kept closed on this option. . But with the population challenge now growing, the Government is not about to throw away the key and close any option for good. . In a pre-National Day Rally interview, Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng told reporters that as far as this issue was concerned, Singapore would react to a changing world. But that time has not yet come. . "Until the time when we see that, indeed, the whole world has changed and everybody provides for dual citizenship, then we will have to revisit our position. So, I'm not ruling out that option. But it's not going to happen in the next one, two or three years," he said. . In the past, the call for dual citizenship was raised to keep Singaporeans from leaving. Now, it may apply equally to enable more foreigners to settle down in Singapore. . In either case, though, the policy considerations are the same. And National Service is a main one. . "For those who are here and don't have dual citizenship, they'll be very aggrieved that a person with dual citizenship has the option of not coming back, particularly when you have the Singapore Armed Forces, when you have a policy that depends on citizenship, and you need them in a time of emergency," said Mr Wong. . Currently, Singaporeans can only hold dual citizenship until the age of 21. They must then decide to drop one citizenship. . This is still a new issue, said Mr Wong, and a decision will have to wait "until we are a mature enough society, when we feel that, yes, the bonds among Singaporeans are so strong".

[edit] enlistment

Regarding the sentence currently in the article: "Gay men are required to reveal their sexual orientation to military doctors", is this sentence accurate? I don't remember such a requirement, and couldn't find an online source. Of course, there is this 302 cat, but I'm not sure if disclosure is mandatory or voluntary. Hope to get this right as it might affect some readers. Any info. on this? --Vsion 06:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the concerned sentences for lack of verification (as per Wikipedia:Verifiability).--Vsion 05:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PRs

The article appears to be slightly wrong in saying foreigners taking up permanent residency don't have to take part in the national service. According to this page [3], only investors and those under the skilled workers category don't have to carry out the NS. Of course, there are only 3 other categories of PRs. Aged parents are likely to be too old. However spouses and HK residents don't seem to be exempted. If the spouse is female, then obviously they won't have to do NS. However if the main applicate is the wife, and the husband applies under the spouse category I presume he would have to do NS. Of course many husbands may be able to apply indepedently but if they can't for whatever reason then it would seem they would have to do the NS (unless exempt for age, health etc). Also, I would guess all male HK residents who apply under then HK category would have to do NS unless they have exemptions like I mentioned previously. Finally, perhaps it should be noted that all male PRs who are former Singapore PRs or citizens have to do NS regardless of category (this is obviously to prevent people getting out of NS by giving up their PR or citizenship for a while) Nil Einne 14:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

They have to, depends if their parents are PR or not. Not too sure though, this NS issues for PRs keep on changing, don't really keep track about such stuff. If ICA says that, then you can use that as a source for your information. There may be some factual errors in the article. Terence 14:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted - AWOL soldier charged with stealing weapon

The guy was not a draft-dodger. He was absent without leave. I've reverted because it has nothing to do with the section header there. --Rifleman 82 02:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economics and social impact

Stipend and allowance is not interchangeable, allowance prescribe a maximum on a limit, stipend refer to payment for labor akin to an apprenticeship, where the compensation is lower than what would be expected for a permanent position performing similar work. In the case of conscription, the stipend is complemented with food and accommodation.

1) Statement refer to NSFs no NSmen as mistakenly corrected.

2) Statement on higher pay than civilian is true, this is based on date provided by MOM and the statement release by Mindef as published by TODAYonline.

3) Statement on increasing education level is true, this is based on statistical data on education from 1996 to 2006 provided by the department of statistic.

4) Statement on economic impact, this is based on statistical data on labour and productivity from 1996 to 2006 provided by the department of statistic, it shows the highest level of labour participation for the age group between 25-29.

5) Statement on labor being inexpensive is substantiated. 6) Statement regarding depressed compensation with its enforcement by legislation is true. As stated, with an all volunteer force, recruitment is only possible with competitive wage, this is highlighted with the Mindef statement regarding renumeration of career soldiers.

Additional reference material:

  • The Report of the President's Commission on an All-Volunteer Armed Force by President's Commission —Preceding unsigned comment added by SixSigma (talk • contribs) 22:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  1. NSF = Full time NSmen. Full time NSF is redundent.
  2. I object to the latest additions because they are frankly quite hard to read. Secondly, I object because a lot of general arguments made are that against conscription. Your citation link is broken. Assuming it does not discuss Singapore's particular instance, what you have written is very much WP:OR and WP:ESSAY. That does not belong here. --Rifleman 82 00:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Citation corrected.

I wouldn't say it is WP:OR, the facts were presented, perhaps better judgment is needed in interpretation. For example, the TODAYonline news article clearly state the stipend received by a recruit is SGD$400, from the statistic provide on labour and productivity based on the number of active CPF member by wage level, in 2006, out of 1,461,900 members only 48,800 members have a wage level less than SGD$400, that is 3.34%.

Also it is correct to say, a career soldier do get above market rate wage. This is shown on Mindef press release, non-uniformed officer with the same qualification receive less renumeration (Management Executive, Good Honours, $3,080 compared with Lieutenant, Good Honours, $3,860, a sizable difference of $780)

I also augmented published research done by qualified professionals regarding this subject matter to help explain this disparity, the economic and social consequences.

I have also tried to write this addition in a fair tone to minimise the assumption, as you put it, an essay against conscription, perhaps my English isn't as good, I have also included wiki links to help elaborate the technical terms to improve clarity. Hope that helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SixSigma (talk • contribs) 21:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

For arguments against conscription in general, please contribute to the article Conscription instead. The statement and reference from Helsinki Center of Economic Research shouldn't be in the article; I couldn't even find "Singapore" being mentioned in the report; hence this is Original Research. Regarding the sentence "the stipend given to full-time NSFs are usually below what he would receive in an open labor market", .... c'mon, this is pretty lame; it is not called "national service" for advertisement. Please don't confuse the title "economic and social impact" with "personal financial impact". --Vsion 06:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)