Talk:National Party of Australia

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[edit] Miscellaneous

and a groundswell of rural support for the Greens and independents on the other


The Greens don't take votes away from the National Party. They take votes away from Labor and possibly a few wet Liberals. If they are gaining support in rural electorates, it's from the "blow-ins", not the National Party's support base. The real threats to the Nationals are (possibly) the Liberal Party stealing their votes, indpendents stealing their votes, and (most serious) the gradual death (literally) of the small towns and family farmers who make up their core support base. Not the Greens. --Robert Merkel

Is there evidence that republican views are a minority in the Liberal party? is there a cite for that?

Your comment applies to the cities, Robert. Not the bush.

The Greens most certainly do take votes away from the Nationals. Look at the recent Victorian election results for the most recent example of this. In fact, the reason the original Bracks Government was able to gain power in the first place (after the previous election)was because of the support of the three independants. All three were quasi-green independants. Susan Davies (since defeated) was ex-Labour and won the seat from the Liberals. Both Russell Savage and Craig Ingram took former National seats. Craig Ingram's seat had been in National/Country hands for 80 years, and his primary campaign issue was the restoration of environmental flow to the Snowy River.

In fact, if you get out into the countryside, the awareness of environmental issues in rural Australia is quite astonishing now. I'm not just talking about city trendies or dissafected hippies, I'm talking about hard-bitten types who have been on the land for generations. Several issues are prompting this but the scourge of dry-land salination has been particularly important: the old-fashioned image of the farmer with his bulldozer key in one hand and a shotgun in the other still has significance, but there has been a massive reapprasial of land-use practices by people on the land. Get out and visit some land-care groups, look at the massive planting programs going on (and no, I'm not talking about plantation Blue Gums here), talk to farmers who are restoring wildlife corridors, reducing their dependance on monoculture crops, clearing gorse and blackberrries, and taking more care with herbicides, look at the Green vote in rural electorates of late, or just read the once arch-conservative but now semi-green farmers' paper The Weekly Times. I can't really comment on city trends, but out here in the bush, the environmental movement is vastly stronger than it was ten years ago, and it is no respector of traditional left-right boundaries. Right now, it's taking votes away from the Nationals, but my guess is that the Nats are smart enough to see which way the wind is blowing and before too long they will jump on board. (This last is pure guesswork, of course. The rest is plain, observable fact.) Tannin

PS: I restored "greens" just now, but as "greens", not "Greens". This is better, as the primary threat to the Nationals is not the Green Party so much as "green-tinged" independants of the Craig Ingram variety. Tannin

Well, this looks like an interesting point to discuss.

Firstly, whilst I've been in the city for a few years now, my family still has a farm in north-east Victoria, and I try to keep up with rural issues. So, while I can't see what's going on from the inside, I do at least keep a weather eye on things.

It seems that environmental awareness *has* been gradually seeping into rural Australia through Landcare groups and the like. Whilst I know many farmers do care deeply about the Australian bush (heck, why are they working on the land if they don't like the outdoors), I think that most of the renewed interest in the environment from farmers is due to pragmatic factors - basically, the realization that if the environment is not looked after their livelihoods will be jeopardised. I would contend that for most of the capital-G Greens, preservation of the environment is an end in itself - if not a totally different philosophy, at least much further down a continuum of environmental motivations and leads the Greens to advocate actions that require sacrifices unacceptable to the more pragmatic approach of farm environmentalism.

As to the question of what the new rural environmentalism means to the Nationals, that's a very interesting question. I'll take your word that it's costing them votes right now, though I find it hard to believe that they would allow it to happen. The one thing National Party MPs do well is keep their ears to the ground, even if their coalition with the Liberal Party stops them moving very far sometimes. If your theory is correct, however, I don't see any fundamental reason why they can't change with the times on environmental issues (Tim Fisher, to give him credit, recognised this quite a while ago) except where the interests of parts of their traditional constituencies collide - farmers and miners, for instance. How they resolve that kind of clash will be interesting, to say the least.

After that long digression, I'm basically happy with the article as it now reads, though I'd still like it made clearer that "greens" doesn't mean the Green Party (I'll leave the wording to you if you like). The whole issue "changing environmental attitudes and rural politics in Australia", however, would be an interesting one to examine further. --Robert Merkel 12:37 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

On the motivation thing, Robert, yes, absolutely. It sticks out like a dog's proverbial. Pragmatisim is what it's all about. There ought to be a term for it: "bottom-line greens" or "pragmatic conservationists" or something. The trend seems to be to look first at the long-term economic return of a given action (designed to reduce erosion, say, or preserve topsoil, or lower the water table), and then say "this is going to save me money ... and now that I stop to think about it, I feel good about seeing honeyeaters coming back to the property too." First the dollars, then the esthetics, but both play a part.

Will the Nats change to reflect this? A really interesting question. My own feeling is that, yes, they will, and indeed the process has already begun on particular issues. I don't have the expertise to bring much evidence for this (at least not without a lot of research) but my seat-of-the-pants feeling is ... well, strong enough that I'd bet money on it.

Digressing even further in my turn, in the medium to longer term, the ALP is either going to have to comprehensively reinvent itself and find both a new core supporter base and a sense of direction, or else give the game away. OK, people say that sort of thing about every major party every time they are out of government for a while, but this time ... What is the Federal ALP going to do? Wait for one of Howard's successors to really stuff it up Kennett-style and hand them a victory on a plate?

Bracks didn't win in '99, Kennett lost. (Aside from the usual schools & hospitals stuff, and the astonishing arrogance of the man, consider his secret-private-contract CityLink tollway that took one of the three major Melbourne freeways that had been open since sometime in the '60s and started charging a book-24-hours-in-advance-if-you-want-to-travel toll that no-one understood on it. Look at the Tullamarine Freeway on a map, then look at the list of blue-ribbon Liberal/National seats that fell in '99, starting in the middle-class suburbs and taking in the Deputy Leader's seat of Gisbourne and fanning all the way out to Ballarat and Bendigo. It wasn't just that Kennet put a toll on an existing public road, it was the sort of toll: you can't just throw some money in a basket, you have to stop, find a phone, and book by credit card! The Citylink fiasco alone cost six or eight seats in the western suburbs.) And in '02, Bracks ran a good, solid campaign, but the Libs handed him that one too.

(Notice my strictly Victoria focus - I'd be interested to learn a little of what the state of play is in the other states - I haven't followed it.)

Excuse me: back to the point. As I see it, unless the ALP can find a new direction, they are going to just fade away on the Federal level and, as always, something else will fill the gap. The Australian Democrats shot themselves in the head when Meg Lees did her GST backflip, failed to rally around Natasha, and proceeded to do the most spectacular political kari-kari act since the ALP split in '55. Scratch the Democrats. As credible opposition to the Liberals, that leaves the rump of the ALP, the Greens ... and, just maybe, the Nationals.

Now I am drawing a long bow. But there have been tensions between the Libs and the Nats for decades, right back to Black Jack McEwan's day. The Nats have a streak of almost socialist policy running through them: agricultural subsidies, joint marketing schemes, opposition to the sale of Telstra, and so on. Their traditional supporter base is shrinking because of changing demographics, and as the baby-boomers age, their replacements have different ideals. There is money in mining, but votes? Not many. Ditto with other extractive industries. Timber felling is shrinking fast because of the conservation movement (fewer votes there) and "green agriculture" and "green tourisim" are both expanding. (Lots of "eco-pragmatist votes there.) To me, it all adds up.

Mind you, having sampled a few Cascade Pale Ales tonight (which is not my usual habit), I could add 5 and 3 to get 17. I don't think I've answered your question. No matter. Tommorow. Tannin

I realise this isn't exactly on topic, but you make some good points and I think the future of the Nationals has to discussed.

The problem with a 'new opposition' is that it hasn't happened since 1904, and Australia has always stuck with 'what works best' in politics. Remember, no third party has ever taken power anywhere in Australia since the rise of the Labor Party, and that was simply as a result of the irrelevance of the original Protectionists and Free Traders once the tariff dispute was resolved. Labor's issues still have great relevance to Australia today, and as such I don't think any third party can ever get the groundwell of support to grow beyond a fringe minority.

[comment moved to talk by user:PMelvilleAustin ]

How can you talk about the National Party without mentioning Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen????

Yes, this does not belong in the article. It's a good point, just the same. (I took the liberty of tinkering with your layout just now, PMA.) Tannin
That's cool mate - i should be used to doing this stuff by now :)

PMelvilleAustin 14:19 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

I don't have time to do it myself, but someone should go over this and rework it to reflect their latest rebadging (now "the Nationals"). PML.

[edit] First leader

According to information I just received William James McWilliams and not Earle Page was the first leader of the party.--The Shadow Treasurer 02:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a somewhat ambiguous question. McWilliams was first elected in 1903 and was elected as a Nationalist in 1919. When the various country groupings which had won seats in 1919 decided to unite as the Country Party in 1920, they felt they needed an experienced leader, so they asked McWilliams to become their "interim leader", which he was from 5 January 1920 to 5 April 1921. Neither he nor the party found this arrangement satisfactory and in 1921 he stood aside and Page was elected Leader. McWilliams was elected as a CP candidate in 1922 but after that sat as an independent. Some sources describe him as the CP's first leader, some don't. I think the Nationals regard Page as their first "official" leader, but I haven't checked. Adam 02:58, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trimed it

Hi,

I think mostly the changes I've made speak for themselves. Possible exceptions:

  • While John Howard, the current leader of the Liberal Party, opposes an Australian republic, there are many within the Liberal Party who support one).

The article should be mainly about the Nats. This is probably a good point, but only if it can be said in less words.


  • ... have been under strain in recent years, being caught between the populist economic and cultural demands of the more socially conservative part of its rural electorate (attracted to the One Nation Party), rising rural support for independents, and the growing strength of the Liberal Party in country areas.

The strength of independants etc etc isn't the problem. It's the symptom of the Nat's continually letting down their constituents. In my POV, anyway.  :-). So I haven't actually said that, I've just stated that people are turing away from the Nat's without trying to explain why.

Regards, Ben Aveling 10:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Nationals: name official or not?

In the article it says that the name 'The Nationals' is only a campaigning name, not an official legal name. However, look at page 5 of the latest House of Representatives Hansard and it definitely says 'The Nationals', not 'National Party of Australia'. What defines official? --ajdlinux 00:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

What your registered name with the AEC is. http://www.aec.gov.au/_content/who/party_reg/registered/index.htm Xtra 03:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
OK. I assume that the Nats will change their registration probably before the next election. However it's interesting that other govt. entities (e.g. the Dept of Parliamentary Services) refer to them as 'The Nationals' rather than the AEC registered name. --ajdlinux 22:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
it is still the National Party of Australia but just as you do not hear Liberal Party of Australia you see "Liberal" by itself, it is "The Nationals" - however in the states, the state branches are correctly described "(The) Nationals WA" or "SA Nationals" etc. DanielT5 10:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This article is woefully POV and actually quite offensive. First of all it doesn't even address the differences between and within the Nationals in different states (particularly WA and SA vs the rest) and is overly centric on Queensland where the experience is very different from elsewhere. It claims the Nationals are "the most conservative party" on social issues yet I don't seem to recall any other conservative party affirming gay rights and gay civil unions. Also claims the Nationals are in decline when the experience has been the reverse since about 2005 when National parties in any states where they have followed a non coalitionist agenda have had considerable gains and attracted popular support outside their key base. Large parts are unreferenced and really need to be rewritten. DanielT5 07:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. ;-) Timeshift 07:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not very good at this one, I'm way close to it, I'd be better if I could just rip it up, research it properly and start again, most of it is POV anyway saying the Nationals are in decline. They may well be in NSW but that's their own bloody fault, over here in the West they're doing better than anyone out there and may even form the next opposition by themselves after the 2009 election if the Liberals keep scoring own goals the way they are now - did you read about Matt Birney and daylight saving? :) DanielT5 07:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Just like the ALP and LPA pages, this page is more in relation to federal than state. Federally, the Nats are in very dire straits. The 2001 and 2004 elections saw their primary vote at ~5% - the only election that comes close to this result is the 1943 election - and considering the circumstances of that election, that's pretty damn poor. That's not POV, that's fact :P Timeshift 09:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
why does it go on so much about Joh if it's not state? that should then be in a National Party of Queensland page DanielT5 10:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:The national party logo.png

Image:The national party logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gun Laws

I think there needs to be more mention about the 1996 firearms agreement because this was one of the major reasons The Nationals lost many seats to Labour and Independents, and a considerable loss of membership. Goldfishsoldier 02:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warren Truss

If someone can source a free pic that would be great. I can't find one. Timeshift (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] McEwen's "veto"

Menzies retired in 1966 and was succeeded by Harold Holt, but in an unusual arrangement, McEwen was granted the right of veto over government policy. After Holt disappeared in December 1967, McEwen was thus able to veto the succession of William McMahon by saying that he and his party would not serve under him. As a result, John Gorton became the new Liberal Prime Minister in January 1968.

This is not right. McEwen was a senior member of the Cabinet, and whatever influence he had he exercised there. Cabinet decisions are announced as collective decisions of the government. Is there any record that he held the Libs to ransom by threatening to walk out of the coalition if the cabinet didn't adopt this policy or change that one? I've never heard of it. If he really had a veto, he may as well have been Prime Minister, which would mean Holt was PM in name only. The first time (and afaik the only time) he used any "veto" (a bad word in this context) was to stymie the accession of McMahon when Holt disappeared. This was a huge surprise to everyone - except McEwen and McMahon themselves (they'd already had a private chat about it); and it had to do with their personal relationship, nothing to do with government policy. McEwen detested McMahon for private reasons - he considered McMahon untrustworthy and had a very dim view of his ambiguous sexuality, which made him, in McEwen's eyes, unworthy of being PM, and he couldn't tolerate the thought of being deputy PM to such a person. Anyone else the Libs chose would have been acceptable to McEwen. I'm removing the erroneous wording. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Johnmcewen.jpg

Image:Johnmcewen.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Deputy Leader in the House of Representatives

Current Deputy Parliamentary leader Nigel Scullion is a Senator and therefore he is also the Senate leader with the previous Senate leader Ron Boswell now his deputy in the Senate. With Scullion being a Senator I assumed that there must be a deputy leader in the House of Representatives after all Wal Fife was Deputy Liberal House leader in 1989 to 1990 when the then Deputy Liberal leader Fred Chaney was still a Senator.

However I don't seem to find any information that there is a Deputy Nationals House leader. So does the Nationals have a deputy leader in the House of Representatives or did they choose not to have one. --The Shadow Treasurer (talk) 05:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't anyone know the answer to the question that I have asked.--The Shadow Treasurer (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

This Handard (page 5, bottom of page) says they have a Leader, a Chief Whip, and a Whip in the HofR, but no mention of any deputy leader. There seems to be twice as much flagellation as leading going on. Maybe they should rectify that balance, and confine flagellation to their private offices and bedrooms. :) As to why there isn't a deputy leader in the HofR, I cannot say. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Which is interesting given that John Anderson was Deputy Leader the last time they were in opposition. He was elected to the position in 1993, and continued in that role after they won government in 1996, until he took over from Tim Fischer as Leader in 1999. Maybe it's a question of interest and numbers. Nobody even wanted the Leader's job and Truss had to be dragooned into it; having acquired a Leader, maybe the party thought that that was enough, otherwise they'd have too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Just guessing here. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Liberal/National merger

I'm thinking an article on this would be useful, perhaps Liberal/National merger. Any ideas/suggestions/comments/objections? Timeshift (talk) 08:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

See my post over at the Liberal talk page. -- JackofOz (talk) 10:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)