Talk:National Liberation Front (Macedonia)

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Contents

[edit] Ohrana

Ohrana ware Bulgarians!Do not write about them as Macedonians! Jingby 10:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I wrote that they were Bulgarian propagandists. Create another article and name it Ohrana. I will put a link to you article, but do not vandalise this article. Revizionist 17:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how SNOF redirects here. If anything SNOF should be the main article since it is both chronologically prior and the father of NOF while the Komitati and Okhrana are very relevant to both since most of the former's members were absorbed into SNOF so there should be a brief description of that linking to the main Ukrana article. Creating separate articles for both is content spamming since most info is repeated.

Xenovatis (talk) 11:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anatomy of a dispute

Dear colleagues Wikipedians, let us discuss in a civilized manner the issues that are making some of us constantly changing the original article that I have written. I’m open to suggestions. I already agreed with our colleague Jingiby to crate another article about the Ohrana and not to spam NOF with it. And he did. I also put a link to his article. So, this is what Wikipedains call fair solution.

Please let me now what are the other issues, we may solve them togheter. BUT PLEASE WRITE HERE, BEFORE YOU CHANGE SOMETHING. Thanks in advance Revizionist 17:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chapter by chapter

Gentlemen, I believe we are very close to a civilized solution. Please see the first two chapters: Occupation of Greece in World War II and SNOF. I also added references from the materials I used. If you agree with the stated, we may proceed with the next chapters. Revizionist 10:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I have made some changes according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles) and removed Slavomacedonian ultranationalistic claims taken by this pseudohistory site (historyofmacedonia.org). Considering this nationalistic site as a valid source is like using Hrisi Avgi. I will add more infos as soon as I have the respective sources. Kapnisma ? 10:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to inform you that I agree with 95% of the changes you made in the article. First I must add that I replaced the places where it was stated just "Macedonians" with "ethnic Macedonains" (containing link to the article wich states that the athnic Macedonains' language is Slavic and so on). Second, I agree with the removal of some words like "physical destruction", "genocyd", and so on - I would have excluded them myselve If I had time enoght to concentrate on the article. But I must say that i won't change the name "Democratic forces", for that is the official name of the DSE (Dimokratiki Stratos ti Ellada) and her followers. Signomi gia to lathos, kai euharisto poli gia tin vohtheia sas. Thanks for the help. Revizionist 14:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome, since you talk Greek then, και εγώ δεν έχω πρόβλημα με το ethnic Macedonians αντί του Macedonian Slavs ή του Slavomacedonian από τη στιγμή που το άρθρο μιλάει για αυτούς. Θα προσθέσω πολλά στοιχεία για το SNOF όταν επιστρέψω από τις διακοπές και βρώ τα αντίστοιχα βιβλία. Αναφορικά στο historyofmacedonia.org, σε παρακαλώ μην εντάσσεις στο άρθρο ψευδοιστορικά sites. Θα ήθελα επίσης να γράψεις τις εκδόσεις απο το βιβλίο "Σαραντα χρονια του ΚΚΕ 1918-1958" που αναφέρεις ώστε να το ρίξω μια ματιά.

Kapnisma ? 13:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As I have said you continue adding Greek language references without providing additional infos (author,were it was published,etc) so that we can also check them, and judging from the fact that you use latin alphabet (even so you are making mistakes)I seriously doupt that you can read Greek at all, so why are you doing it? Unless you DO provide the additional informations I will revert them as unproved Kapnisma ? 21:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ohi, Ohi sanadelfo mou. Kathalavenw 70% apo avto po grafeis. Ti einai "ekdoseis". Alla OK, na milame agglika. I often go to the Archives of Macedonia, where I find materials and books written by NOF and DSE veterans (both Ethnic Macedonian and Greek). Some of the books are translated in english and Macedonian by the Archives itself. And some parts of the books are also translated in english and published in different books and magasines. I especially like reading Rizospastis articles and the memoires of Markos Vafijadis which I have in croatian translation. P.S. How do you like the article. Do you have and objections now? Please write to explane me. This is a very important article which explains too all of us that Greeks and Ethnic Macedonians are brothers and can be brothes if they have the same goals, and have mutual understandidng (like you and me). Regards Revizionist 09:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

What difference does it make if the references are Greek? Not everyone can read Greek, did you think about that? 203.59.65.185 12:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mutual agreement

Dear fellow Wikipedians I inform you that the NPOV Template was excluded. Please write the new point of views and questions here on the talk page. With respect. Revizionist 12:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear colleagues, I would like to accent the fact that NOF are not Greek Communist Part members. The fact that they had 6 months negotiations for the unification of forces explains everything. NOF had 2 congresses: in 1947 and in 1949. Revizionist 17:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NOF members

  • NOF-its were not Greek Communist Party members. They were independent from 1945 till mid 1946 when they united with the DSE. Till the end of the Civil War they had thair own independent organizations, schools, theatres, newspapers. NOF had 2 congresses. Risto Kirjazovski in his book "Македонската политичка емиграција од Егејскиот дел на Македонија во Источна Европа" says:
"Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia were put before the alternative: to resist and fight against the destructive terror and genocide, or to seek shelter in the neighboring countries. The Macedonians chose the hardest, but the most glorious path, the path of their ancestors - the struggle for survival and human rights. The armed resistance of the Macedonians against the pressure of the reactionary government in Athens began just after the Varkiza agreement - outside and independently from the Communist Party of Greece"
So in the beginning of the article the part that says that they were KKE members will be excluded. They fought together with the DSE and KKE after 1946, but as an organization independent from the KKE. Regards Revizionist 10:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyediting

Hi, I've just spend an hour or so copy editing this article. The standard of English was only fair in the article, so my main concern was to get the text into something acceptable. Along the way, I worked on removing superfluous wiki links. A term (and we link terms, not common nouns) only really needs to be linked once; we don't have to link terms that surface throughout the article over and over again. I also spelled out acronyms (i.e. KKE) when they are mentioned first, and use the acronyms thereafter.

I also had to remove POV language. It is POV to refer to one side that participated in the Greek Civil War as the 'monarchofascist' and the other as 'democratic'. To avoid this, I simply refer to one side as the "government forces" and the other as the "DSA forces". It's the fairest solution.

Regarding the list of sources, I would suggest that the places of publication, dates, etc., be translated into English. It might also be an idea to translate the title of each source into English, but to place this in brackets after the original.--Damac 12:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "(60 per cent of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians)"

I am veeeeeeery far from being convinced of the validity of this statement...Please give an exact quote from the stated source...

(Getas75 (talk) 20:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

I find it ridiculous to claim that all SNOF members were 'Macedonian'. There were thousands of former SNOF fighters who escaped to Bulgaria and claimed they were Bulgarian. Up until the 1980s there were "Greek Political Immigrant Clubs" in many Bulgarian cities and towns. --Vladko (talk) 06:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

All of the members of both the SNOF and the NOF were ethnic Macedonians. They wrote in Macedonian language, using the official cyrillic alphabet of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. Both KKE, official Greek, and American sources confirm this. --Revizionist (talk) 12:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slavic toponyms and Greek border controls

I think an explanation is needed as to why Greece refuses entry to those whose passports list Greek places of birth in a language other than Greek. It's not because Greece dislikes Slavic names, otherwise no one born in a Slavophone country would ever be allowed in. I also wonder how the border guards on the other side would feel about someone's Greek passport listing Μοναστήρι as their place of birth instead of Bitola. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it standard practice that passports are written in the language of the state issuing them? I'm sure my dad's passport says Troppau. Or were these people citizens of other countries? Anyway, about the other issue, the language name: there's no disambiguation need here, as the whole paragraph is about the opposition of "Greek" and (ethnic) "Macedonian"; Greek dialects are nowhere to be seen in this article; no reader is realistically in danger of misunderstanding that. And the language is called "Macedonian", like it or not; if those names were written in the passports they were presumably intended to represent the "Macedonian" forms, not some vague nonexisting "Slavic dialects of Greece" forms. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
"Macedonian" isn't the language of Australia or Canada, where many if not most of these "Aegean Macedonians" actually come from and on whose passports they travel. Let's not fool ourselves here; their decision to declare "Lerin" as their place of birth, for example, is a deliberate political statement, especially when their original Greek identity documents list it as Florina. As for the part about Greek dialects being nowhere to be seen, that's not the point; that there is more than one definition of the term "Macedonian names" regarding places in Greece can hardly be disputed. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 13:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I can live with "Slavic Macedonian". But the fact that it's a political statement makes the "Macedonian" part (in the ethnic/national language sense) of it all the more important. It's crucial to what it is a political statement of, right? And I'll oppose using "Slavic language (Greece)", here or elsewhere, as if it implied that was a language different from Macedonian, which it is not. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is full of false statements,and promotes racial hate.Slav communists and greek communists were brothers,and the object of national liberation front was n t the creation of a country name MACEDONIA,but the revolution and socialism,WITHOUT borders and nationalistic hates.so please stop doing propaganda,and respect the historical truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.129.229.253 (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That is true, there was no ethnic hatred between ethnic Macedonian and ethnically Greek socialists during the Civil War, but would you be so kind as to tell us exactly which passages in the article promote racial hatred? Köbra Könverse 08:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops, Macedonian is an official language in Australia (one of the languages that are taught in schools there). As for the Macedonian and Greek communists, of course there was no hatred between them. Nowhere in this article is there written that there was hatred. On the contrary, the Greek Communist Party gave the Macedonians in Greece organized in NOF the right to self-determination. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 12:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

KKE was not competent to grant the "Macedonians" in SNOF the "right" (??) to self-determination.--Dexippus (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Zachariadis says that if the DSE wins the Civil War, the Macedonians will have their solution of their national question as they wish and their right to self-determination would be respected. He also states that the ethnic Macedonian fighters organized in their NOF are giving a crucial contribution to the DSE cause. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 13:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article is one sided POV and in fact historically inaccurate and full of propaganda

FIRST: You "forgot" to mention that SNOF was formed in Kastoria (October 1943) and in Florina (November 1943) as a result of 3 factors; negotiations between: 1) Titos's envoy in the Yugoslav and Greek regions of Macedonia, Zvetozar-Vukmanovic Tempo and 2) The military leaders of the Greek Popular Liberation Army (ELAS) and the Communist Party of Greece (KKE). 3) And specifically Leonidas Stringos and Sveta Uzunovski in August 1943 near Yannitsa, Greece.

The aim was to co-ordinate resistance movements against the German Nazis. The Bulgarian occupation forces in the Serbian part of Macedonia were received as liberators and pro-Bulgarian feeling ran high in the early stages of the occupation. Neither the Communists' position regarding a separate Macedonian nation nor the idea of a Yugoslav federation met with much response from the Slav population, which nurtured pro-Bulgarian sentiments. The local Communists, led by M. Satorov, splintered off from the Communist Party of Yugoslavia and joined the Bulgarian Labour Party (which was Communist), with the slogan “One state, one party". The subsequent dissatisfaction with the occupation authorities was due to social factors (high-handedness, heavy taxation, contempt for local sensitivities) rather than national ones. This was also why Tito's resistance movement in Yugoslav Macedonia failed to develop. See Tempo's speech on 30 January 1945 in Belgrade, PRO FO 371/48181, R2448/11/67, Maclean to Foreign Office, No 121, Belgrade, 31 lan. 1945.

However, the aim of Yugoslavia and Tempo was to instill a Slav-Macedonian national identity (different from the Bulgarian komitadji fascist influence) among the slavophone Greeks of Greek Macedonia as well. This was to promote Yugoslavia's views on Greek Macedonia. Tempo brought the idea of a unified Greek and Yugoslav Macedonian communist federation to the table with Andreas Tzimas (KKE representative in the summer of 1943). But Andreas Tzimas would not sign any such document. See RCHIDNI (Rossijskij Centr Hranenija i Izutenija Dokumentov NovejPej Istorii), F. 495, Op. 74, D. 177, L. 60, Fitin (Director of Soviet espionage) to Dimitrov, 18 August 1944.

The idea represented by Tempo and the newly-established Yugoslav Communist Party gave priority to battling against any form of manifest or latent pro-Bulgarian sentiment in Yugoslav Macedonia and to bringing the region into the Yugoslav federation. This policy was chiefly supported by Josip Tito, Metodija Andonov-Cento, Mane Cuckov, and Kiril Petrusevski. In 1943, Kiro Gligorov (former President of the FYROM) also favoured this solution.

SECOND: The photo in the NOF section depicting Young Ethnic "Macedonians" was taken in Vatohori (Baptchori as is stated), Kastoria in March of 1948.

The 2 armed female soldiers were members of the LOXOS DHMOKRATIKHS NEOLAIAS GYNAIKWN THS 670 MONADAS TOU DSE (Democratic Army Female Youth Company - Unit 670 of the Democratic Army of Greece). They were Greek communist guerrillas.

The 2 female soldiers depicted in the photograph came from Lamia (Central/Mainland Greece) and Karditsa (Thessaly). These areas were never part of Greek Macedonia.

None of them had any relation whatsoever to the so called "Slavomakedonski" NOF militia.

THIRD: As for the section titled "Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians", this is all FYROM propaganda. The KKE removed Greek children aged 3 to 14 years of age from areas of Greek Macedonia, Epirus, and Thessaly (mostly by force and coercion) over the Iron Curtain because it needed to recruit people to their cause and eventually use the older children as fighters against the Greek National Army. I personally know people who were separated from their parents and were made to believe that they were not Greek. Their siblings who now live in Greece say that they are Greek yet the ones who were taken say that they are "ethnic Macedonians". See UN General Assembly Resolutions 193 and 288 dated November 17, 1948 and November 18, 1949 condemning the removal of and demanding the return of Greek children. There were no "ethnic Macedonians" in Thessalia and Epirus yet the KKE also removed children from there. If one were to look at why Greece refused to allow these grown-up misguided adults now back in to Greece it is because their passports state their birthplaces as eg. Neret, Macedonia. Well Neret is the slavic name of Polipotamos (in the region of Florina) but the country is what??? Macedonia??? Similarly I can't go to the US with my passport stating I was born in Los Angeles, Mexico! See this link for an example: [1]

Revi(z)ionist history indeed! I am going to tag this article as controversial and I question its neutrality.AgiosD (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)