Talk:National Hockey League rivalries

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Ice Hockey, an attempt at building a useful ice hockey resource. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page (see Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ for more information). Edit this message Ice hockey Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

[edit] sens and toronto

I took the line about the Senators constantly finishing high and Toronto constantly finishing low out of the "Battle of Ontario" section. It's simply not true. - Steveo

Someone needs to mention how every single canadian team hates Toronto. Maybe it's just Ottawa... much akin to Alberta, we seem to have a "Battle of Ontario." I'm not sure about this, though.

i know what you mean but we need some reserch and by the way where did the Sens suck and leafs suck website.it is a part of the rivalry Bret1

[edit] suggested merge

I am suggesting a merge to put all the rivalries on one page. Just a thought. Masterhatch 11 August 2005

That might make sense. how would we do this? Brett1

As far as I know, all the articles are now merged unless I missed some hidden away somewhere. Masterhatch 18 August 2005

i guess you already did it thanks

Brett1 18 August 2005

Isn't it a little presumptuous to say that there WILL be a Battle of Alberta between the two lacrosse teams? I mean, it's a new franchise in Edmonton, they aren't going to last a year.

Also that Battle of Ontario article is WAY too biased in favour of the Sens.

[edit] Ottawa-Toronto too much detail

Why do we have detailed playoff summaries for the past four postseason meetings in this section? It adds length for no discernable reason other than possible gloating by Leafs fans... I would not want to see Boston-Montreal playoff summaries either; the written description is more than enough. --RealMontrealer 07:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

There used to be a page on it, and it was merged. Don't ask me why it was merged though. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yup, that's a bit excessive! - Sajt 00:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought the point of Wikipedia was to provide information. With that in mind, it's not possible to be too detailed; in fact, each of these sections should have their own page that provides in depth documentation of playoff meetings, notable games, etc.

[edit] Edits to the Rangers - Islanders section

Now, I've always heard that the main chant by Rangers fans was, "Potvin beats his wife!" Anyone know something more concrete (Paging New York fans...) so that we can add it?Habsfannova 02:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The main chant is Potvin Sucks! which is preceded by rythmic whistles from a few blokes in the crowd. Beat your wife Potvin beat your wife! was actully part of a song that was recorded, and was chanted at NYR games, but I have not heard it in the past 6 or 7 years. However that could change this year. Nyrmetros 22:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

"Beat your wife Potvin beat your wife !" was indeed heard from the hardcore sections of the Rangers blueseat crowd during the December 3, 2006 Rangers/Isles game at MSG. Nyrmetros 01:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I pared down the section comparing this rivalry to other NY area sports: it still communicates the essence of what the previous section said while saving a bunch of words and keeping the focus on hockey. I consolidated the paragraphs about the occasions where the teams met in the postseason. The ophaned paragraph looked lonely, and the organization is fine as it is. I would also be OK with combining that paragraph with the previous one, so there's one paragraph on all the playoff meetings. The Chicken Dance chant was NOT designed to mock Fleury, though it perhaps exploded in popularity because he made reference to it in 2001. I've been going to games for years, and Isles fans adopted the chant long before Fleury came to the Rangers. For the last paragraph, I removed information about LaFontaine because it's redundant with having his name wikilinked. I removed the information about who won the first trophy because it's just not that relevant, especially compared to who won each season thereafter. We don't say who won the first Stanley Cup every time it's mentioned in an article. Croctotheface 04:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The Pat LaFontaine trophy is important to many of the hardcore fans, as it honors a great American hockey player who played for both organizations.... and it offers bragging rights for the 2 sets of fans.... I feel that the winner of the inaugural Pat LaFontaine trophy should be mentioned within the context of the trophy. If the chicekn dance has been played at Islander games before Theo FLuery, then I defer.... I had not heard it at any NYR / NYI games previosuly.... Nyrmetros 01:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The LaFontaine trophy really isn't mentioned in the local media--I can't really see giving it more space than it has now. It's basically just a promotional gimmick. It rightly gets very little press nowadays because it's so much less important than the games themselves when both teams are in a playoff race. Which team won the trophy first is basically a random factoid, which is not appropriate for WIkipedia. Croctotheface 05:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there any other large scale fan incidents that have been either missed or glossed over? Nyrmetros 16:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The NYR - NYI santa brawl.... why is it being classified as playful? From what I remember of the incident, it may have started innocently, but did turn ugly. Nyrmetros 02:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- I found some video of that incident. Hockey Santas. From the video I can't tell though if there was serious aggro or not. Sam and JD seemed to make light of it though. Nyrmetros 07:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC) Maybe someone can add this into the article as a reference? Nyrmetros 07:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Original Six

The original six era of the NHL should have more documentation. The teams played more frequently, and games were often undermined by personal rivalries between players. This aspect of the game seems to have been lost with time. Would anyone be willing to help? Flibirigit 14:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Mm, but it doesn't really require more mention than that. A single paragraph in the Original Six or the History of the NHL articles saying what you just said should suffice. RGTraynor 15:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Other" Rivalries

I'm looking at the end section here, and I have to wonder about CBJ/NAS, MIN/DAL, and NAS/DET. What, precisely, is the impetus for these? I mean, Nashville and Detroit have the one playoff series and the fact that they're the only two not-awful teams in the Central, but surely, there's gotta be more than that for a rivalry to exist. I mean, Edmonton and Dallas have six playoff series of hatred to count towards theirs. Calgary and Vancouver have been divisional rivals and frequent playoff partners almost from the get-go, and their most recent set-to was probably the roughest in the West last year. But those...I dunno. If someone can compellingly show a rivalry there, okay, but otherwise, we may want to prune this. Doogie2K (talk) 00:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It's fancruft, just like most of the sports articles on here...and then it takes on ESPN tones about how it's "THE GREATEST" and all that...Habsfan |t 00:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

From a Nashville fan, Columbus has basically been, well, Nashville's bitch (easy wins most of the times) over the past few years, and isn't worthy of mention. The Detroit-Nashville rivalry should be reconsidered after the 2 teams met again in the 07-08 playoffs. And while it's not an amazing rivalry, its always an accomplishment whenever Nashville beats Detroit. --Liquidfire3240 (talk) 05:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] battle of Pennsylvania

what about it?

It hasn't been much of a battle for a few years now. I don't think it ever was. The Penguins have never beaten the Flyers in the playoffs. I noticed a renewed vigor between the teams this past season (more so early on), but I wouldn't say that makes it a rivalry. I recall Lemieux's last game before his first retirement and it was in Philly. The fans cheered him. There is no way the Philly fans would do that for a Ranger or a Devil, but they did it for a Penguin. Then again, what do I know? If the Flyers are listed as rivals for the Islanders, Sabres, and Capitals on this page, certainly Flyers/Penguins more so than those three. This article must be a head ache for whoever chooses to watch it. It's bad enough when on the Flyers talk page a discussion on rivalries concludes that the Rivals tidbit in the factbox should be removed, only to have it reappear a few days later. --Sparkhurst 07:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leafs vs. Canadians

The fact that there is nothing other than a mention of this rivalry on an 'NHL Rivalries' page is ridiculous in the extreme. Though it was pretty much an original six rivalry (since the Leafs and Habs haven't seen each other in the playofs since 1970 if i'm not mistaken), it needs to be mentioned. The leafs/habs rivalry was about more than just hockey or sports (and I'm not just spouting teary eyed romanticism here), it was reflective of the ethnic conflict between Franco and Anglo Canadians, it was the rivalry of the two (with detroit a third) dominant teams. It was Ontario vs Quebec. This was comparable to the Rangers/Celtic rivalry in Scotland (though much less violent). Even today, many (if not most) Leafs and Habs fans (at least the ones in Toronto and Montreal) care a hell of a lot about this rivalry, and rest assured that many are anxiously awaiting a playoff meeting between the two. If they did meet in the playoffs, then mentioning the 'Battle of Ontario' in a Toronto bar would probably garner the response "Ottawa Who?". It doesn't need to be an essay, it doesn't even need to be the longest one on this page, but the montreal/toronto rivalry needs to be mentioned, regardless of whether or not it took place in the era of the original six.

And I am not volunteering to write it. Look how longwinded I am here. I am just calling attention to a gaping hole in this article.

                         Signed, A Concerned Hockey Fan

If you don't start it, who will? Even an incomplete section that needs expansion is something to build on. Even something no longer than what you wrote here would serve as a foundation for others to come in and add information. Croctotheface 04:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I started it. Feel free to start refining it! TrulyTory 04:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that we delete much of what's written here. There's a whole paragraph on the Kings-Leafs game in 1993 (seriously, it's been 13 years, can you Leafs fans get over it?). It's really not even germane to the Leafs/Habs rivalry. It actually sounds like whining!!!! (Yes, I know, I'm an avid Kings season ticket holder, and thinks Gretzky is the greatest)OrangeMarlin 20:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canucks vs. Avalanche

I admit that I'm an Avalanche fan, and I really appreciate the depth on the Detroit-Colorado rivalry presented here. I feel like perhaps we could go into some depth about the Vancouver-Colorado rivalry. I admit there's little playoff material to talk about, but the in-season rivalry is huge, being that they are division rivals. A nod to the Todd Bertuzzi incident and the increased penalties between these two teams might merit making it a small section. 65.78.76.226 00:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wings vs. Avalanche

I think that whole section needs rewriting, and I'm gonna do it unless there's much objection. There's no mention of the goalie brawls, no mention of the depths in which the local media got involved, the info on the Lemieux-Draper hit is all wrong, it's just not well written and misses a lot of key info. And I think it was obviously written by an Avs fan (Draper did not receive "a concussion and several facial lacerations"...Lemieux smashed his jawbone and orbital bone. Darren McCarty did not "get into a fight" with Lemieux the year after, that would imply that it was a two-sided affair. If Colorado fans "often poke fun" at the Wings for not getting a three-peat in 1999, Wings fans do the same for the Statue of Liberty goal in '02. And so on.) I'm a Wings fan, but I can make it balanced. More balanced than this, anyway. I just need a couple days. Sonar1313 22:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. "Colorado won the fight, but Detroit eeked out a win in overtime.", that line alone says that a Avs fan wrote this and/or edited it. First off, there were several fights that night and they weren't all onesided. Both teams had fights they won. Second, this should be mainly about the facts. It should say "Detroit won in overtime", plain simple and to the point. I've added the NPOV tag until it's re-written. BT14 17:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree that this article is very biased towards the Colorado Avalanche. It seems that an overall citing of the FACTS involved, rather than a minimalizing of Detriot's accomplishments and a maximizing of Colorado's accomplishments, is what is needed here. What is currently up not only takes away from the validity of the article, but also takes away from an objective and FACTUAL standpoint on the subject.
Erik from San Diego
Therealjax 03:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is very biased toward Colorado and needs to be rewritten. I distinctly remember the Draper/ Lemieux incident. Draper was severely injured and his face was smashed to the point that he needed reconstructive surgery. If nobody else is going to rewrite this article, I'd be happy to do it. I was at both games and remember them well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laughinginterror (talk • contribs) 05:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I rewrote the entry and it looks a lot more balanced and unbiased now. Feel free to make changes or let me know if there's anything to add/ subtract.Laughinginterror 21:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This actually seems a little bit biased towards Detroit now. The beginning talks about the severity of Drapers injuries in a more emotional, not factual, light. This whole section needs to be more like a play-by-play, not a color commentary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.53.17.190 (talk) 05:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I've added references to back up what's currently in the article, as well as some video. As far as Draper's injuries go, at this point, it's as unbiased and factual as possible. Also, I've included several news source references to the incident, as well as video. --Laughinginterror (talk) 05:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

While the bias seems to have been largely cleaned up (props above), I thought the section was overly detailed in the area of fights, to the detriment of other aspects of the rivalry. Not one mention had been made about the fact that these were indisputably two of the NHL's most dominant franchises (the other being New Jersey) of that era. I added a little about their combined successes and mention later on how the rivalry could have diminished because they haven't met recently in the playoffs.Misopogon (talk) 20:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, Misopogon and I like your contributions to the article. It may be impossible to write anything about this that will be seen as unbiased by everyone. It was a very emotional rivalry and both sides have very distinct and differing notions of what really happened. the dissertation about the individual fights can come out. I put it in there mostly because it was the culmination of the rivalry and to show that it wasn't a one sided thing. --24.16.94.26 (talk) 07:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Canadiens vs. Senators

This is becoming a bigger rivalry then the Sens-leafs one. It is possible that they will meet in the playoffs. I suggest adding a section. Mbralchenko 15:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Fan" rivalries

There should be more info about the fan rivalries of each team, not just the teams stats against each other. Nyrmetros 22:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Any thoughts on this? The Rangers - Islanders section has done a commendable job with this. Nyrmetros 16:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

People arguing in bars about which team is better isn’t very encyclopedic and it's hard to find sources for anything better. If you can come up with some sources, more power to you. Kevlar67 03:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with this. If other teams have publicized disputes akin to the ones talked about in NYI/NYR, I'd certainly be fine with including them, but if they're not publicized and can't be sourced, they shoudn't be included in the article. Croctotheface 04:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh I agree. I wasn't talking about the "he said she said stuff".... but legitimate and well documented fan rivalries that correspond with the team rivalries. Luckily the NYR - NYI team/fan rivalry has been well documented over the years in the local papers. Nyrmetros 04:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Historic Rivalries

How is Buffalo vs Carolina a historic rivalry ??? Nyrmetros 17:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{too long}}

Ok, I realize everyone has their favorite rivalry and would love to see it on WP. But is a period-by-period commentary on series and games really needed here? Before we start to hack and slash (two minutes :), I thought I'd see what kind of discussion can be had. Thx. — MrDolomite • Talk 15:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Battle of Alberta section can be cleaned up. It had a main article, so we don't need any of the rest of the stuff in that section, just leave the title and the main article and that's it. That would help and it seems like a good solution (at least a partial solution). Am I right? Bsroiaadn 17:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flyer fans in New Jersey

This sentence "This rivalry has become quite intense in New Jersey itself, with the northern part of the state being the Devils fanbase, while the southern part of the state is overwhelmingly Flyers fans." has a "verification needed" tag after it. There aren't really any sites (That I have come across) that document the rivalry very well. But, from personal experience, I know that a lot of people from Southern New Jersey are Flyers fans rather than Devils fans. I know personal experience of one person isn't an encyclopedic reference, but what if there were many editors that also said it was true? It's the only thing I can thing of to get rid of the "verification needed" tag. I think it should be left in there as it is important, but it's the only thing I can think of. Would that suffice as verification or no? Bsroiaadn 17:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is pretty clear about attributing a reliable source to all facts (especially those that may be controversial, or come under scrutiny). What you are proposing above is considered original research, which is expressly prohibited in the WP:NOR policy. The idea is that Wikipedia is not intended to be a "primary source," but instead a collection of facts obtained from secondary sources. Basically, if nobody has quantified the Devils/Flyers fanbases in a reliable source, then the statement shouldn't be in Wikipedia.--Brianvdb 04:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Devils-Flyers Rivalry

Would the fact that either the Devils or the Flyers have won every Atlantic Division title since the 1994-1995 season be an interesting fact to add? I didn't know that until I saw it mentioned on New Jersey Devils. reference 1 reference 2 Bsroiaadn 18:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] leafs and canadiens

there should definately be a mention of the biggest game between the two teams in the last 30 years....i added one and someone deleted it... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.235.232.116 (talk) 04:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Devils Chant

The chant "rangers suck" being heard at every devils home game is common knowledge to anyone who has ever attended a Devils home game or even watched one on TV.

Your belief that something is "common knowledge" does not exclude it from WP:A. Croctotheface 04:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ottawa Bias

There is clear Senator bias in the Battle of Ontario section, NPOV? I think not. 74.123.112.95 20:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Leaf fan :-) Seriously though, it needs a lot of work. Alaney2k 18:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sens fans realize how inferior they really are to the Leaf Nation so they try to paint a false picture on websites like wikipedia. Quite shameful I must say. Go Leafs Go! Those Sens Blow! --76.114.113.232 (talk) 09:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Your team hasn't made the playoffs for three straight seasons, and you're saying the Sens blow? They made it to the cup finals last year. They would've made it in 2003 had New Jersey not scored that fluke goal. How can you complain about bias when there's passages like this:

the Sens turned in a lacklustre performance in the series finale. As was the case each time prior, the Leafs beat the Senators in the series.

All throughout that section, it's clear that only the facts are presented, and the trend has always been the Sens beat them in the season, and the Leafs beat them in the playoffs. I've cleaned up any possible POV statements, and updated the section in a neutral way. However, there are still some unsourced claims, but the section doesn't side with either Toronto or Ottawa. --Pwnage8 (talk) 21:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hudson River Rivalry

The Devils are gonna be playing in Newark so this section needs some revision. 66.88.206.154 15:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My 2 cents

This article can be improved a lot, as there is much valuable info. However, there are several key problems. My top ideas for improving this page are:

Drastically cut the Battle of Alberta section. It has a main article, that link and a brief paragraph would suffice.
Create a separate article for the Battle of Ontario, similar to the Alberta one to shorten that section.
Try and make the Atlantic division section shorter and more concise, or if necessary create a separate article and link it.
Try and find more citations, sports websites often have stories on this, especially around playoff time.
In general, try and avoid long descriptions of single games or incidents, unless they are the single root cause of the rivalry.
Shorten or remove the other rivalries section. There is no way that we need a list stating that vancouver or buffalo is a rival of every team in their divisions, that seems to go without saying.

When I find time i will try and adress some of these problems, but help would be appreciated. Thanks Random89 06:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the Atlantic Division Rivalries has enough content to split it off into it's own article, in my honest opinion. Same with the Battle of Ontario. Anyone disagree? I'll try to work on getting some more references when I have some free time and finish some other things I'm working on. But I'd prefer if someone at least started that before I/if I get to it, anyway. Bsroiaadn ^Talk 04:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I split off the atlantic division section into it's own article. It was mainly a copy-paste job, so it;s a bit sloppy, but i will try and come back and edit it at some point if no one else does. Random89 19:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ducks/Kings Rivalry

One user is making an effort to stop the term "freeway faceoff" from being applied to this rivalry. A bunch of unregistered editors and (so far) one registered user have been trying to add it. I would ask the proponents of that name to cite it or at least justify it here, or it will keep being removed. Random89 09:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The source is here. There may be some newspaper articles, perhaps in the LATimes, but I can't find one at the moment. It's the result of a recent online vote coordinated by a cable channel, so it's not clear to me whether/how it should be mentioned on the page. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 18:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for replying promptly. It seems to me that this is more of a marketing term used by FSN and the respective organizations, as evidenced by the creation of an "official logo" for the rivalry. For the time being, at least until we see if other media pick this up, perhaps it should be mentioned in the body of the section(and cited) instead of in the header. Random89 (talk) 23:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Theraven, orangemarlin, and others: Please pay attention. Instead of an edit war over a section header we need to reach a consensus. As I mentioned above, I believe that the title "freeway faceoff" should be mentioned, with the context in which it was created, in the section body, NOT in the header. Please debate that here, and DO NOT edit that again before a consensus is reached. Random89 (talk) 22:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't edit war. it is simply NOT notable nor is it sourced. Thank you for your consideration. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not mean to accuse you of anything, I see that you are acting to try and better this article. That being said, I wish that one of the apparently many proponents of this title would come and discuss it, as it seems to me that it wouldn't be a bad thing to put in the body text. It i, after all, on the ducks website (as one editor pointed out with an attempt at sourcing).Random89 (talk) 08:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PoV article

I find this article very PoV, if not for the reliable sources, it would be a candidate fo deletion or at least a major reduction. Honestly, the rivalries in the NHL since the early 1990's are basically media created (that includes Leafs/Habs). There's one rivarly that's gotten no mention Nordiques/Habs. My point is, everybody has got a different view of this. GoodDay 19:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

While in many cases I agree with you, I don't think this warrants deletion, just a cleanup (which I have started to do). I don't see a problem with "media created" rivalries, since this day almost everything is media created, as long as it is sourced in places beyond the newspaper or other media that created the term. I would propose deleting the "other rivalries" section and adding the few important entries to the main prose sections. That would go a long way to removing many of the POV issues. Random89 (talk) 08:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Categories: B-Class Ice Hockey articles