Talk:National Express Group

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:National Express Group Logo.png

Image:National Express Group Logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headquarters

The Group HQ is in London, and the Coach operations HQ is in Birmingham, shouldn't London be put as HQ? 79.67.87.129 (talk)

[edit] Move

I have put a requested move for National Express. See Talk:National Express. Simply south (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Status of the National Express page

A debate prompted by the 2007/8 rebranding had produced a requested move. The move above did not attract any discussion, and has resulted in a move anyway. This has resulted in:

  • This page is unchanged as the NX group page
  • National Express is now a redirect to this page
  • National Express Coaches is now the true title of the UK express coach co. formerly under the National Express title.

The move is now relisted (19 Feb)
MickMacNee (talk) 18:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The issue as I see it is, where should National Express now point to? I think the moved National Express Coaches can remain as the main article for UK coaches, as there is sufficient blurring now between the coach division and other UK companies (once rebranded). However, I think National Express should redirect to National Express Coaches, not the group page, because:

  • The coach division website is actually branded National Express Coach (not coaches)
  • The actual coaches appear to be staying as National Express, see website and [1]
  • The other UK companies being branded National Express all appear to be getting straplines that are applied to the vehicles
  • The NX Group also runs Eurolines and other overseas operations, none of which will apparently use the National Express name or brand.

The disambig text at the top of National Express Coaches can be the place where people looking for the other UK companies can be directed to the group page.

The above is my main proposal, as an aside, there could be a db page just listing the group, coach and other NX branded UK operations, although without any unrelated uses of the term National Express (on WP as yet), it would appear that is overkill per naming policies. MickMacNee (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

  • A better pic showing the UK sub-branding for non coach operations, note the prominent definer, West Midlands [2] MickMacNee (talk) 18:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I am also concerned that this logo [[3]] appears to be a user made combination, extrapolated from the website. MickMacNee (talk) 18:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

S South is right. Calling an article "National Express" is now confusing- do you mean the coaches, the East Coast rail or East Anglia rail? Good move! Btline (talk) 19:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The image in question above is fine. I moved the "coaches" part under the "National Express" to save room in infoboxes. Apart from that it is unchanged and does not mis-represent the company. Btline (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact you re-arranged it is what I was getting at. If you want to take it literally, it appears only one entity will have vehicles branded National Express with no qualifier. WP has a policy regarding common usage of names. The reason that NXG is applying the name to other UK companies is because of the recognition the name gets, created by the association with the original (and continuing) coach operation called National Express. MickMacNee (talk) 19:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

National Express have officially re-branded to "National Express Coach." See website. Yes- they will probably keep the "Coach" bit off their coaches because: 1. people already know that it is a coach service due to the past. 2. A coach does not need to have "Coach" written on it (unlike a train does need "East Coast" on it etc.). I very much expect that timetables will have "coach" on them.

As for the logo, if necessary, the logo could be split in two, uploaded separately and both logos out on the infobox. This, however, would be a waste of time and not change a thng. National Express move the positioning of the two sections around a lot anyway (see NXEC discuss) so this is fine. it includes the whole brand image, fits the infobox, and does not misinterpret the brand. Btline (talk) 20:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. As per this page on the group website [4], the coach operator is legally National Express Limited, and uses just National Express as a logo without the qualifier Coach. This is in contrast with the logo and legal name of gner as National Express East Coast [5]. Coach does not stand up in both use in public sight or legally. MickMacNee (talk) 20:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but the brand is clear from the logo at the top of the website- NX Coach. Again, they are less in a rush to fully rebrand the coaches as they have been known as NX for years. Btline (talk) 20:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
No, they are not going to add Coach to the coaches, unless you have information otherwise. The vehicle livery, legal identity and common knowledge uses all pass WP:NAME. MickMacNee (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Everything else is fine, but I would have to agree with MickMacNee that National Express should redirect to National Express Coaches, with a disambiguation note. National Express has been the name of the coaches for decades, as had National Express Group the parent company's name. The coaches are not being rebranded with "coach", I saw one in the new livery with "national express" in massive letters. As MickMacNee says, it is everything else that is getting a strapline. Whoever said that the "coach" will be kept with the "national express" name is wrong, as shown here. The logo is distinctly by itself, in full view at the top, all it says is "Coach Timetable" below it. This is in contrast to the East Coast rail timetable, which has the national express name at the bottom. -- Arriva436 (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

But the timetable still has "Coach" on it. It is also better for Wiki to make it "NX Coaches" as this makes the encyclopaedia much clearer and easier for people. Most people wanting to find out about the group will type in "National Express." Redirecting them to a "coach" page will not be helpful- and will not truly represent the company in its entirety. Finally, the logo on the website for NX Coaches makes it clear that NX want to do the same with their website (as I said before- NX are not going to splash "Coach" on their coaches- the fact that a coach is coach is self explanatory! :-) Btline (talk) 23:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Your assertion that users want the group when they request National Express is pure original research, there are clear procedures for proving the common usage of a term, but it seriously should not need to be done here, especially as the group has hardly even begun re-branding. National Express also mis-represents the foreign operations that are not being re-branded. Finally, it is yoiu that is asserting that NX has a NXcoach logo, it does not, the logo is your creation, what is on their website is two separate images, for very obvious reasons. MickMacNee (talk) 01:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Plus, it is not a single logo, you have created the logo by putting the two separate images together. MickMacNee (talk) 01:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

How about as a different compromise, the National Express redirect becomes a disambiguation page? Simply south (talk) 00:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to seek more opinions from some policy minded people. MickMacNee (talk) 01:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for comment

Above is the status of the discussion prior to Rfc. Basically, National Express Group has decided to rebrand all UK companies (there are foreign ones to be unnaffected) to the National Express name, built on the good faith of the historical name National Express, which is/was a coach company from which the group expanded. There previously existed articles on the group National Express Group and the coach operation National Express. As the rebranding started, it was suggested, and as unnopposed, done, to move National Express to National Express Coaches, and redirect National Express to National Express Group. This redirect is now in dispute, as it appears, unlike all the other companies, there is not going to be a large qualifier in the name of the coach operation, it is remaining as National Express, although obviously the National Express name is now going to get more exposure from the other companies. So, how to apply common usage as to where the National Express article name points to? Base it on the prior common usage and arguably continuing usage as the coach company, or the future use as a UK group, or a disambiguation page listing all NEG operations (about 10-15). It is asserted by Btline that National Express Coach (not coaches) is a sub-brand, the evidence for this is contested. Comments... MickMacNee (talk) 02:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

< EDIT

I fail to see the confusion. 'National Express' (the national coach network) is part of the 'National Express Group'. Other (UK) parts of the 'National Express Group' are simply being rebranded into the NX umbrella, purely as a corporate excercise.

An example, 'Travel West Midlands' is being rebranded as 'National Express West Midlands. However, it will retain it's legal title of 'West Midlands Travel'.

So, it's simple. You need a 'hub' page for the 'National Express group', with leads to each of the constituents.

Dave Francis. http://nationalexpresscoaches.fotopic.net

END > —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.51.244 (talk) 17:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Right. Because of the NX rebrand, there are a lot of franchises/logos etc. that say "National Express." We, on Wikipedia, should be aiming to reduce that confusion. Therefore, a page called "National Express" should not redirect to the coaches page- as there are many things now entitled "national express ......" . Therefore, to keep this encyclopaedia easy to use, "National Express" should redirect either to National Express Group, or should be a disam page. Btline (talk) 18:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)