Talk:Nation of Aztlán

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WikiProject Mexican-Americans Nation of Aztlán falls under the scope of WikiProject Mexican-Americans, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Mexican-Americans on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to Mexican-Americans as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Mexican-Americans. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Contents

[edit] Redirect?

If I recall correctly, this page used to redirect to Voz de Aztlán, the web "news service" run by Hector Carreón that basically reports the news from a militant, anti-Semitic point of view. But as far as I know, that's the only organization he runs, and its not an organized political group as such. If that's the case, I think the redirect should stand. But if I'm wrong and this is a different organization, please correct me.--Rockero 06:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Since I searched for this specific subject under Aztlan, I think this should be the page it directs to. I also think most people searching for Aztlan would be searching for the "nation" (especially with the recent publication of the Professors, where many people profiled mention this Hispanic nationalist ideal). GreatGatsby 19:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I have to disagree with your thought that "people searching for Aztlan would be searching for the "nation"". I think most people looking for "Aztlan" will be looking for the semi-mythical homeland of the Aztecs and its significance for contemporary Mexicans and Mexican Americans, not this web news service. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "especially with the recent publication of the Professors, where many people profiled mention this Hispanic nationalist ideal". What professors? Who is profiling who? I don't see how this statement argues in favor of having the redirect go here rather than having La Voz being the main article.--Rockero 19:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
The Professors is a recently published book about 101 of the "most dangerous" academics in America. It profiles each of them with what could be considered radical ideals, and perhaps a dozen speak of this Aztlan that they want as a Hispanic nation. GreatGatsby 03:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, so David Horowitz wrote another book about supposed subversion in academia. I still don't see what his book has to do with the redirect or what people are looking for when they type Aztlan into wikipedia or another search engine. I have made my case for a merger, and if anyone can offer an argument as to why it should not be implemented, I'm all ears.--Rockero 17:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
You've said nothing of a merge till now, I'd have no problem with a merge. 20:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I had mentioned a merge on the creator's talkpage. I'll wait another day or so to see if anyone else has any objections.--Rockero 21:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irredentist

What's our source for calling the subject an "irredentist" organization? I thought they were more secessionist or ethno-nationalist. -Will Beback 05:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

According to the ADL,

  • The NOA seeks to create a separate nation in the area now "occupied" roughly by California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.[1]

That's secessionist. -Will Beback 05:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC) Same difference, they want this territory joined with an ethincally similier contiguos territory. That is the definition of irredentismo going back to the Italian claim on the Austro-Hungarian Empire.--Dudeman5685 02:25, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

This phony debate about "irredentism" vs. "secessionist" avoids the fundamental issue: the so-called "American" Southwest was seized by America from Mexico as part of the USA's expansitionist Mexican-American War. As such, America has no moral or political claim on Aztlan, except as a colonial occupier. American nationalists of all stripes here try to discredit the Aztlan freedom struggle with their propaganda labels like "ethno-nationalism" or "separatism" and to legitimize American rule over this land. At base, Americans refuse to admit that their nation was and is a Western colonizer nation in its essence, founded upon a 230-year occupation of Indigenous, Mexican, and Hawaiian nations.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.236.131.99 (talk • contribs) 05:31, July 17, 2007(UTC)

Unless I am missing something, the "irredentist" vs. "secessionist" debate is moot. I do not see the word "irredentist" in the article at all. Perhaps it was there at one time. Regarding anonymous user's claim about the expansionist behavior of America and American's refusal to admit that they were a colonist nation - that is not correct - see Manifest Destiny - it is taught in US schools at every level - even to children. Regarding anonymous user's claim that the US has no moral or political claim on the Southwest - the US does have a valid political claim because the US and Mexico entered into a treaty see Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and Mexico accepted payment for the territories (albiet under duress) following the Mexican-American War. Because the land was transferred under duress then as far as I am concerned, the moral actions of the US and it’s moral claim to the land can be validly questioned and can be a part of the article as the long as the entry is well sourced and the point connects validly to this article. I’m not sure it can because the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo did not transfer “Aztlan”, it transferred a quantified amount of surveyed and mapped lands. The way I understand it “Aztlan“ is a mythical place and I offer the comparison of the lost continent of Atlantis or the Garden of Eden as close examples. Archeologists have tried to locate Aztlan, however there is not even a consensus among “experts” whether Aztlan is merely a myth, or a myth with a historical component. Speculative locations range as far north as the State of Wisconsin in the US, to as far south as the State of Michoacan in Mexico. Some Chicano movement activists refer to the Southwestern US as Aztlan as does anonymous user, but this article is not about Aztlan anyway. This article is about Nation of Aztlan a supposed “Latino patriot and independence organization” purportedly out of Whittier California that the ADL describes as being anti-Semetic and affiliates with a news e-zine by the name of La Voz de Aztlan. The more research I do the more I think that Nation of Aztlan is a fictional organization anyway. I do know one thing for sure, and that is that this article is unencyclopedic. --Chicaneo 03:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The Treaty of Guadalupe was a US colonialist treaty. It was created and used by Americans as a cynical legal figleaf to legitimize America's theft of Mexican land, which came about as a result of the Mexican-American war--a war that was expansitionist in nature and involved among other things the defense of American chattel slavery. A treaty signed with a gun pointed at one's head has no moral standing. This is the basis of America's (im)moral claims in general, which are just as specious as its claims over First Nations' land throughout the entire USA. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.171.151.8 (talk • contribs) 13:02, July 19, 2007(UTC)

[edit] Anti Semitism

The Anti Semitism is clearly alledged (sp?) and not the stated position of the organization. For neutrality sake the word must appear for Anti-Semitic --Aliwalla 19:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the allegations are stated without counter arguments which serves to imply their objective truth. Also, being accused of anti-semitism by the ADL is hardly anything to be ashamed of. Implying that they're to be taken seriously is rather silly, but I won't remove it. MQDuck 11:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Half of their headlines could have been ripped right off of Der Stürmer. It's probably POV stricly speaking to say so, but come on, what kind of "counter argument" can justify articles with titles like "Jewish rabbis practice male penis mutilation"? Deleuze 17:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
They have translated the Protocals of Zion and put them online as truth. Thats good enough for me.--Dudeman5685 02:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


Has anybody actually bothered to visit their website? As of today, there are articles on their website entitled:
  • The "Kosher Nostra Scam" on the American Consumer
  • Was Mel Gibson Set Up? (their answer: Yes, by the Jewish conspiracy)
  • "Jewish rabbis practice male penis mutilation" (where circumcision is called "Judaizing them for life".
  • Jews Attack Mexican Heritage in Los Angeles County where they call Jewish women "Jewesses" and call New York "Jewish New York".
  • "Why do Jews, homosexuals, lesbians and others stage phoney hate crime hoaxes?"
  • Jews are behind attacks on Cruz Bustamante and MEChA
Enough is enough. I want to know who disputes the neutrality of this article, and what they specifically dispute. If nobody steps up to the plate, or if nobody has a _specific_ problem with the article, I'd like the NPOV removed.
Sliver 19:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comments: Delete this article? Or rewite?

I don't see an encyclopedic article here. Here are the issues as I see them IMHO, (1) The four references are all links to editorials, which could be used as examples of anti-Semitism, but I don't believe they belong in an encyclopedia article as references; (2) Without those four editorial references, the article is unsourced and has been for quite some time. However, dispute tags were put on only this month; (3) I have done an extensive search for an entity by the name of "Nation of Aztlan" but can not find one other than on the ADL website, a few blog sites, and the website for a band named "Nation of Aztlan" see: [2] All news searches come up empty. Does this organization even exist?; (4) On the same note, the article states that Southern Poverty Law Center claims that Nation of Aztlan is a hate group out of Whittier California, but SPLC makes no such claim on their website; (5) the article provides unsourced, contentious and potentially libelous information about Hector Carreon, a living person stating that he has been the subject of an FBI investigation. As a living person, this article's contents regarding Mr. Carreon fall under the guidelines of WP:BLP, which is a policy not a guideline. In other words, statements about a living person should be properly sourced, either that, or removed. (6) At one point this article was two articles - "Nation of Aztlan" and "Voz de Aztlan". Should they be separated out once again? My suggestion: I think rather than delete it entirely, we should give it a chance to work itself out. We should rewrite it section by section, making sure to source it properly, and remove all the controversial/unsourced stuff. Comments??? --Chicaneo 05:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Classic. Sweep that dirt under the carpet; whitewash that moneypit. Savignac 06:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need to Un-merge Nation of Aztlan and Voz de Aztlan articles

First, I think we need to un-merge the two original articles: (1) Nation of Aztlan and (2) Voz de Aztlan. From looking at both of these talk pages it doesn't appear as if there was a discussion prior to the merge. If there is, would someone please point the way to the discussion page? I'd like to be able to understand the rationale for the merge. Anyway, back to the un-merge. La Voz de Aztlan clearly states in one of its articles that it is not affiliated with Nation of Aztlan - see the following quote (in red ink): "Editor's Note: This is a right out lie. La Voz de Aztlan is a news publication. The Nation of Aztlan is a separate group with an independent leadership. The publisher of La Voz de Aztlan does not hold any leadership position within the Nation of Aztlan." at [3]. I would be bold and do the un-merge speedily but I don't know how to go about it. Will, can you help? --Chicaneo 04:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The merge took place in December. A tag proposng the merger was up for months, but there wasn't any discussion. Rather than undoing the merger by going back to the December text, it might be better to simply break out the text on Voz and move it to what's now a redirect. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

Turtlescrubber, In your edit today you removed the POV tag and requested that anyone who put it back on leave comment on the talk page. I have restored the tag because this article is pure POV. Some of the reasons have been discussed in the above section entitled "Request for Comments: Delete this article? Or rewite?", however because the section was not labeled "POV" or something like that I'll enumerate the POV rationale here. (1) The article is completely unsourced. Without sources there is no verifiability and therefore this article is in violation of (and has been for quite a while) Wikipedia official policy see Wikipedia:Verifiability. (2) The four references that are listed in the article are to editorials. Editorials are POV, not reliable news sources. (3) I have done an extensive internet search for an entity by the name of "Nation of Aztlan" but can not find one other than on the ADL website, a few blog sites, and the website for a band named "Nation of Aztlan". All news searches come up empty. I'm not sure this organization even exists. I have also initiated research on radical Mexican American groups and have come up empty. One source I have looked at is Chicanismo: The Forging of a Militant Ethos among Mexican Americans by Ignacio Garcia 1997, The University of Arizona Press, ISBN: 0816517886. Nation of Aztlan is not mentioned in this book, but that really does not mean that the organization does not exist, only that I have not found it in this authoritative source and that I will continue to look. (4) This article states that Southern Poverty Law Center claims that Nation of Aztlan is a hate group out of Whittier California, but SPLC makes no such claim on their website. Such inaccuracies about the claims of SPL is further evidence that the article is POV. (5) The article provides unsourced, contentious and potentially libelous information about Hector Carreon, a living person stating that he has been the subject of an FBI investigation. As a living person, this article's contents regarding Mr. Carreon fall under Wikipedia:Biographies of Living Persons, which is a policy not a guideline. In other words, statements about a living person should be properly sourced, either that, or removed. An internet search has produced statements about Hector Carreon and many others. However, these websites are mostly blogs and anti-illegal immigration sites with stated agendas. A news search for Hector Carreon comes up empty. There is quite a bit of information on the Anti-Defamation League website, but it is completely unsourced and is not verifiable. IMHO (I am not a lawyer) it really does border on libel, slander and/or defamation. Pretty ironic considering that the name of the group is the Anti-Defamation League. On the other hand, one look at the Voz de Aztlan website tells one a whole lot about the ethos of the newszine and it's editors. I won't say anything further about that, but will let you decide for yourself. --Chicaneo 18:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

There's little point in quibbling over POV tags. They don't fix anything anyway. Chicaneo has identified some distinct problems with the article. If we can't find enough sources to support the article it should be cut down to what is verifiable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, then I'm going to go ahead and remove the contentious, unsourced info about Mr. Carreon. I'll leave the rest until we can verify sources. --Chicaneo 18:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey great. That really clears things up. I wasn't sure if the articles neutrality was still in dispute. Apparently it is. I would also agree with both of you in that this article should be reduced to only verifiable information. This article has major issues. Turtlescrubber 20:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, web searches in English and Spanish pull up no real sources on this shadowy organization. The only info, like you say, is on the ADL and SPLC websites. However, it looks like this group has never done anything. Also, there is no proof that it is connected to La Voz. Maybe this article name should redirect to Reconquista (Mexico) and a stub made out of La Voz? Or something similar. There doesn't seem to be a lot to keep. Turtlescrubber 20:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I've never really paid attention to the Reconquista Mexico article until now. It's a mess too. I think if we redirect, we'll have an even bigger mess on our hands. I've been reading the articles on the La Voz web site and I'm not sure "Reconquista" sums up their philosophy. They're all about something else. Reconquista themes are prevalent in their "news" articles and editorials, but so is anti-Zionism if that's the right word. I suppose some, like the ADL, would call La Voz an anti-Semite webzine. --Chicaneo 04:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
What I was trying to convey it that I think this article should not exist. It is hardly verifiable or encyclopedic. Instead, there should be a "la voz" article and not a "nation" article. I think anyone typing in the nation of aztlan should be redirected (somewhere), either to "la voz" (periodical), Aztlan (place) or the reconquista (ideology). I just don't think that there is any real info out there on this "group". Turtlescrubber 18:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Investigation by FBI

The counterpunch article "Buy Sex on the Net or Those Older Freedoms?" by Saul Landau discusses the Homeland Security investigation. Carreon himself dicusses it in an interview with the radio show La Causa and published on La Voz de Aztlan itself.--Rockero 22:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

This article either needs to be rewritten or deleted. Even the Neo-nazism article doesn't make the racism involved in the topic as clear as this article. This article only says they are a "racist group." Well who are they and what are their activities? That needs to be established first, not how racist they are. Yahel Guhan 04:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That's because Stormfront and Vanguard Neo-Nazis edit here and brag about it on their websites, so Wikipedia tries to soften the criticism of them, so they don't try so hard to pretend they are not racist. Savignac 05:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

no. It is because there is more to the nazis than simple racism. Yes, nazis are racists, however, they have an ideology (grantit it is a racist ideology), they have a history, they have done activities, they have leaders, structured organizations, etc. and they are more than plain old racists. There is nothing wrong with calling racist groups racists if reliable sources say they are so, but without accurate citations, that cannot be done. What race are they prejudice against? Yahel Guhan 05:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

They claim that Jews are a race; WWII is proof. You are trying to apply casuistry for excluding racist groups from their obvious category. Savignac 05:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Antisemitic organizations generally are not included in the racism category, because racism is too broad. Antisemitism is much more specific.Yahel Guhan 05:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not theological antisemitism. Just ask the ADL. Besides, these are the Brown racists that call for the expulsion of all non-Browns from "America", which to them includes the whole New World, that they think belongs to the Brown race. Where is the inclusion of those agitators in Wikipedia? Where is the microscope on their hate activities? How come you make exceptions? Do you agree with their statements, so turn a blind eye? Savignac 05:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

all unsourced claims. No, I do not agree with racism, and no, I don't trun a blind eye to racism. If you want things included, you'd best provide specific sources. Yahel Guhan 06:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I highly doubt you'll accept any source. It has to agree with your mindset, in order for you to accept its inclusion. Even if it didn't name this particular group, you would be against inclusion of Brown supremacism in this category, even with sourced examples. Savignac 06:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

no, I wouldn't; though I doubt you could find a reliable source; the one you pointed to does not verify the text. It is not about ideology; it is about sources. Yahel Guhan 06:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If I used CNN, you wouldn't like it. Savignac 06:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

try me. If the source really verifies the text, we won't object to its inclusion; but uncivil comments and addition of Original research (or false facts_ is very unproductive, and won't result in any consensus in your favor. Yahel Guhan 06:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to bed. Let's see tomorrow, if I am not wiped out from work IRL and I haven't been derailed by your numerous actions to squelch me. I'll probably be blocked, then whatever I have to say is even more dubious, for you've never been blocked--always getting your way. Savignac 06:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

It isn't clear to me what "Alternate uses" of the phrase "Nation of Aztlán" have to do with the organization that is the subject of this article. Unless somebody can make a connection, using reliable sources, I think the section has to be considered original research and should be deleted. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 08:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, its not clear that this "organization" exists. The uses of the term "Nation of Aztlan" are all pretty theoretical. The main "theoretical use," put forth by the ADL, is for an organization affiliated with Carreon and La Voz de Aztlan. Others are put forth by other people/organizations. So I think the article should discuss all of the uses of the term, perhaps with a small rewrite on the intro to specify this.--Rockero 19:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
That's an interesting point. Except for Wikipedia and the ADL, it's hard to find any references to an organization called "Nation of Aztlán" and, as you wrote, the ADL conflates the Nation and La Voz. Maybe a rewrite is appropriate. I wonder what others think. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 23:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
yea. a rewrite is necessary (as evident by my suggestion for potential deletion above). Yahel Guhan 01:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)