Talk:Nation

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[edit] Disagree

Identity out of nation since the late eighteen century is discussable. It has existed since morning of time! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.60.247.162 (talk) 10:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bravo

I am very happy to see this page being accurate in the facts and reasonable in its interpretation of the word and its meaning. Countless times did I have to explain that nation is synonym with people first and foremost. Thank you very much to the intelligent people who wrote this article. I hope this will help spread the knowledge that the majority of the peoples on this planet do not enjoy the freedom of living in a State they democratically govern. -- Mathieugp

It makes you happy, but that doesn't mean it is accurate. This "nation" page has been hijacked by poly-sci weenies. Yes, defining "nation" to be "people" could be a good idea, and especially convenient for those who wish to use words such as "nation-state". However, it is not how the word is commonly used, and it is not the sole definition of the word in the dictionary; it is just one narrow sense.
I have no objection to the material that is here. However, the page should be altered to add up front that the word "nation" is quite commonly used to mean "country", and that this page would like to explore a narrow but useful definition of the word.
My Oxford Dictionary includes the phrase "forming a state or inhabiting a territory" which is notably absent here. Some "nationalist" movements would prefer to leave this phrase out of the definition.
Also, I have a problem with the word "people". Again according to my dog-eared Oxford, "people" can mean "community, tribe, RACE, nation". Fourtildas 06:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fourtildas (talk • contribs) 06:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
...As in "A 'country' is a community of people created by a national ideology, to which certain norms and behavior are usually attributed?" But "country" is the equivalent in English of pays; it invariably refers to a territory. The article is perhaps too accurate to suit everyone. --(Wetman) 00:37, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Last but not Least, a nation as a group of people can include just those who life in the same territory as Wetman said... Herle King 02:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A word on origins

"treat nations as a relatively late human social grouping. The most widely quoted theories place their origin in the late 18th and 19th century,"

Is it relevant to mention the references to the nation (or the idea of the nation) in history? The nation has been mentioned in works as far back as Sun Tzu's Art of War (chapter 2) for example. "Thus it may be known that the leader of armies is the arbiter of the people's fate, the man on whom it depends whether the nation shall be in peace or in peril."

Or the numerous references to nation & 'peoples' in the Bible? Or the growth of nationhood in Japan as early as the 3rd century?

Remember that "nation" in Old Testament contexts is being employed in 16-17th century translations for a Hebrew word that took for granted genetic affiliations, I believe. One would also like to hear what word "nation" is translating in the Sun Tzu text, so that we might decide whether modern concepts of "nation" are being superimposed there too. Are there any texts to support such an early concept of "nation" in pre-Nara Japan?--Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposition of change

Since there are many attributes which can are used to define a nation, I propose we take those the United Nations and state it as such in the article. The United Nations generally defines a nation as "a human group who shares some or all of the following attributes: customs, culture, religion, institutions, language and history." What do you think? Mathieugp 23:10, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The United Nations is an assembly of political states. Any UN definition in this sphere must be a political compromise, for all modern political states claim to speak for nations. Wikipedia's several articles are on a clearer track than this proposed definition, but the UN definition might be analyzed: for a start, from what UN source does the quote actually come? --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
"United Nations" is a misnomer--should be United States [of the World], and since its 192 members claim authority over virtually all of the earth, its definition might just well be self-serving. If you're not in the club, you don't count. Canada recognizes over 600 indigenous First Nations within its claimed border, yet the UN recognizes only one state, Canada, and Canada has just gone on record objecting to the U.N. Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Interestingly, the most vocal opponents of that policy are the British imperial colonies: USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. They have the most at stake, being occupiers of the territory of other nations.
Doctoral Thesis for reference:
Sovereignty Challenged - The Changing Status and Moral Significance of Territorial Boundaries
"A nation may be defined as 'A portion of mankind [that] are united among themselves by common sympathies that do not exist between them and any others – which make them co-operate with each other more willingly than with other people, desire to be under the same government, and desire that it should be governed by themselves or a portion of themselves exclusively' (Mill 1861/1991: 391).
Mill, John Stuart, 1861/1991. Considerations on Representative Government. Reprinted in Utilitarianism, On Liberty, Considerations on Representative Government. Edited by H. B. Acton. London: J. M. Dent & Sons, Everyman’s Library.
http://www.statsvitenskap.uio.no/fag/polit/disputas/fulltxt/FullThesisAnneJulieSemb.pdf

Qureus1 10:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The nation is a whole. A whole is a logical, mereolical concept. Wholes are sets, ordered and hierarchical wholes and collections. When people are trying to define nation, they refer to these different types of wholes, and also when they defines social groups. They are not aware of these wholes but try mostly to define "belonging characreristics: language etc, but what they describe is the set form of wholes, but there are other forms of wholes also with the same meaning that can be claimed to be the nation. The problem is linking the concept to the political power, or the establishment of the nation. The nation is defined when all men take control over the public sector making it a subset og the whole. All will tule. The whole is to rule. This is exemplified in the French and the American revolutions. It is a collection establishes itself. In society we need peace. Leibniz distinguished between different levels of peace: ars nedciendi, tolerantia civilis, tolerantia ecclesoastica and unio (eirene). Society is in tolerantia ecclesiastica, this is how to define society. 08.05.2006 StaraStara

[edit] Queer Nation?

If "a nation is a group of people sharing aspects of their language, culture and/or ethnicity" then how come someone has thought of considering queers a nation? It makes as much sense as Internet Geeks' Nation or Stamp' Collectors Nation.
--Kpalion 21:45, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There is certainly no justification of the term other than rhetorics. I suspect it's modelled on "First Nations" (where nation does appear in its pure and original meaning). Dbachmann 21:55, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I included them along with "Red Sox Nation" already mentioned. Vogue words. Here's another stretch: " many nations exist without a state, such as the Kurds, Gibraltarian and the native American nations, " "Gibraltarians!" A nation just begging to be joined to Spain, one suspects! Too bad the concept we're trying to bring into focus is undercut by politics in this fashion. I have not removed this however. --Wetman 04:13, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

brothers, i cry out to you. i am not gay, but can clarify this point within the american system. we , as americans, have tried to deny rights to the blacks(or africans), chinese, native americans, irish and mexican or hispanic ethinic group and as i see it, the homosexualals. i apologise to my brothers. sorry.

[edit] Imagined Community

It seems as if there should be some consideration of Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities, in which he states that the definition of the nation is "an imagined political community" and that "Nationalism is not the awakening of nations to self-conciousness: it invents nations where they do not exist," (6). Thus, nations are not natural occurences of human collectives but instead percieved communities of people.

Someone has inserted this rather precious conceptualization— without linking it to Benedict Anderson— as if it were common usage. Would someone more knowledgable than I please disambiguate this specialized usage in our entry, and provide the Anderson reference at References?? --Wetman 14:33, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposition

I propose this definition as a replacement for the current one: "A nation is a human community characterized by the consciousness of its historical or cultural identity, and often by it linguistic or religious unity". Then we can say that a nation generally shares some or all of these attributes: customs, culture, religion, institutions, language and history. Any objections? -- Mathieugp 18:19, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)


I think it is a good definition, especially, since it is general and does not need the existance of a State or common territory (which is something more political). Moreover, other ones should stay, of course. Definitions as the ones given in the UN should absolutely be in the text and it should be remembered that the concept varies very much from place to place and from one ideological plane to the other.

The definiton above is general and lets for example complex definitions possible, as the one that a Nation can be divided in many Nations or that it can be formed out of many Nations. Such characterics of a Nation exist in some definitions and can be in some cases constructive (not always, of course).- N.M.B.R.Nbez 11:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The above definition omits the nation's characterization of its genetic identity, which is the essential element in the evolution of the modern idea. --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Territory

I was always taught that "a nation is a group of people sharing aspects of their language, culture and/or ethnicity" and that live on a common territory. (Which definition excludes the possibility for a "queer nation".) --[[User:Valmi|Valmi ✒]] [Seems like I hadn't signed at the time... Don't even remember writing that!]

The common territory is the Country or pays. A separate concept, though blurred in casual usage. --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Vagueness

"The idea of a nation remains somewhat vague, in that there is generally no strict definition for exactly who is considered to be a member of any particular nation." ...and after all our hard work here! Let's further clarify the terms and remove this waffle. --Wetman 14:35, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

attempted to disambiguate "nation (ethnos)" from nation (country) whenever I saw the quoted term "nation", which appeared to bear some other connotation. Ancheta Wis 12:32, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

what, my brothers about the native american indians or aborigines of an native continent?

"many nations exist without a state, such as the Kurds, Assyrians, Gibraltarian and the native American nations" is in the text. --Wetman 12:52, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)


[edit] "state-nations" as opposed to nation-states?

"This sort of entity is sometimes referred to in political theory as a "state-nation", where citizens form a common identity because of their membership in the state. The key distinction is that a nation-state is a state formed by people with a common identity, while a state-nation is composed of individuals who form a common identity because of their membership in the state."

If this distinction has no other name, and if it were in use, it would be used somewhere that would provide a meaty quote. Otherwise it has a bogus feel to it... -Wetman 21:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Any chance of a citation for this usage? --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Nationalist bias throughout the text

The first sentence quite correctly asserts that the idea of nations is a doctrine = ideology/system of beliefs (which implies, by no means an objective fact). In spite of this, from the third sentence on it is pretended, by pervasive use of the indicative mood, that nations exist by nature, that national identity is an innate "sense of belonging" and not something attributed to people by societies and states. That it could be the latter isn't even mentioned. Any reference to the reasonable constructivist view mentioned above seems to have been eradicated by nationalists. This article is an extremely POV mess. I wouldn't know where to start so I didn't edit it.--84.188.173.232 22:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Were it not in the indicative mood, it would be in the conditional and subjunctive: this were a frivolous quibble, if it were substantiable. Once the idea's origins and its pre-suppositions have been laid out, normal discourse proceeds normally. --Wetman 02:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The constructivist view is itself a doctrine, and it is often used in a political context, to justify the existence of a nation state, especially if it is disputed. Something like this, for example: 'Canada is not a nationalist boot camp, why no, Canada is a peaceful community of people who want to live as a community, and have taken the maple leaf and the caribou as symbols of their identification with each other in this community, so there is no reason at all for Quebec to be independent, and if you try we will lock you up'. So although the article should indeed be careful about suggesting that nations are an eternal fixed reality, there is no reason to take Benedict Anderson as the last word.Ruzmanci 11:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

To say nothing of the 600+ indigenous First Nations Canada 'recognizes' but for which it refuses to allow autonomy or sovereignty. Qureus1 16:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Note, I made one small change which I'd like to explain to anybody out there. The Czech and Polish nations - I added 'various' before Polish and changed 'Czech' to Bohemian. Although the Czech republic and Poland may be well established modern European countries with their own background and paraphernalia etc, there is nothing beyond modern propaganda from harliners in both countries to suggest that these nations existed centuries ago as they do now, in fact only the opposite is apparent: people often said that the Czechs and Slovaks were never one and the same nation, one reason for their break-up in 1993 from the 20th century Eastern European state of Czechoslovakia. For what people call nations, this may be true. On that premise it must also be said that even these subnations can divide further, and a denomination of Czech peoples shows that this country is mainly composed of Bohemians and Moravians BOTH of whom have a seperate past history and identity, as do the Silesians who are a small nation caught in a triangle of international frontiers, Czechia; Slovakia; Poland. Since Czechs and Slovaks (and Poles for that matter) are ALL based on Slavic descent, and so too are Silesians and Moravians, there can be no conceivable theory to support that Moravians and Bohemians, whilst not being each other are still Czech, but Slovaks remain different, either they are all one and the same, or they are all different. As for the Poles, well Polands borders have chopped and changed incredibly over the centuries, what is considered Polish is that where a governing power is in place, calling itself 'Polska/Poland etc', where-as Poland too comprises dozens of subnational communities past and present (Slovincians, Kashubians, Silesians, Pomeranians, Mazurians etc.) Curiously enough, the word 'Poland' is based on the word 'Pole' (cognate with English 'field' {see the 'f'+'l' and 'p'+'l' connection}) yet the only known nation to include the term 'Pol' in its title is the Poleszuks who are another Slavic subnation who live on both sides of the Belarussian/Ukranian borders (who both incidently are ALSO made up of subnations). Celtmist 1.10.05

[edit] Oxford Dictionary of Current English

The Oxford scholars have studied how the word is currently used and understood: "community of people of mainly common descent, history, language, etc., forming a State or inhabiting a territory."

Only one meaning in the "Current English" dictionary. If someone has the full OED maybe they could quote some non-current usages - I think it once meant "tribe" or "ethnicity".

Some ethnic/religious movements invent their own meaning of "Nation" to push their claims to "Ancestral/historic/promised Homelands/Fatherlands".

tribe", "ethnicity", "mainly common descent": not really that much disagreement there. A brief note on OED's report would surely be a welcome addition to the article, I think we'd all agree. --Wetman 07:40, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


I think, the concept of "diaspora" is not in complete accordance with the definition of Nation given by the Oxford Dictionary, since the concept does not need the people of a Nation neither to form a State nor to inhabit one single territory (not even a majority of the people to live in one territory). Moreover, I know there are also definitions of a Nation having "Subnations", as is the case in the Spanish Constitution. It refers to a Spanish Nation (indivisible) and to nationalities that form it.-N.M.B.R.Nbez 10:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

All modern political states, including Spain, claim to represent nations, as in "United Nations". Thus in the particular case of Spain an imaginary category "sub-nation" must be constructed. Spain is a state. Spain is not a nation-state. Galicians, Basques, Catalans are nations. Other subdivisions within Spain, like Estremadura, currently wish to be accorded comparable "autonomous community" status. These local issues might best be discussed in the entry Politics of Spain. --Wetman 19:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Spain is a state composed of the Spanish nationalities, that's plural, not singular. One could call these nationalities the greater Spanish nation, however that is very inaccurate, for example, the Basques generally do not consider themselves part of a greater Spanish nation, or greater French nation for that matter either. The Basques are a people (nation) who live primarily in the states (geographic regions) of Spain and France, more precisely they live in the Pyrenees that form the modern Spanish-French state border.
A better example would be the UK. Three and a third nations in one unitary state. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the etimology section correct?

Just trying to help here. I may have missed the point, as I am no expert in the term myself. The English Wikipedia etimology section claims that

  • "The first recorded use of the word "nation" was in 968, when Liutprand, bishop of Cremona, while confronting Nicephorus II, etc."

My question is, when Cicero (106 B.C.–43 B.C.) mentions nation ("natio") in his Oratio in Catilinam Altera Ad Populum (Second Oration Against Catiline) in 63 B.C. isn't that a good enough use of the term "nation" that both (1) predates Liutprand, bishop of Cremona and (2) indicates that it was a well established term by 63 b.C.?

I quote Cicero in Latin and in an English translation published in 1906 and available on the web:

  • Nulla est enim natio, quam pertimescamus, nullus rex, qui bellum populo Romano facere possit. Omnia sunt externa unius virtute terra marique pacata; domesticum bellum manet, intus insidiae sunt, intus inclusum periculum est, intus est hostis. Cum luxuria nobis, cum amentia, cum scelere certandum est. Huic ego me bello ducem profiteor, Quirites; suscipio inimicitias hominum perditorum; quae sanari poterunt, quacumque ratione sanabo, quae resecanda erunt, non patiar ad perniciem civitatis manere. Proinde aut exeant aut quiescant aut, si et in urbe et in eadem mente permanent, ea, quae merentur, expectent.
  • For there is no nation for us to fear,—no king who can make war on the Roman people. All foreign affairs are tranquilized, both by land and sea, by the valor of one man. Domestic war alone remains. The only plots against us are within our own walls,—the danger is within,—the enemy is within. We must war with luxury, with madness, with wickedness. For this war, O citizens, I offer myself as the general. I take on myself the enmity of profligate men. What can be cured, I will cure, by whatever means it may be possible. What must be cut away, I will not suffer to spread, to the ruin of the republic. Let them depart, or let them stay quiet; or if they remain in the city and in the same disposition as at present, let them expect what they deserve.

D walker 03:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I had the same feeling about the section, so I reworked it, using another quote from Cicero.

-- Ziusudra 20:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] National Identity

Is this the same as the article 'nation'? Perhaps a separate article needs to be written.ok

[edit] POV from the get go.

One of the most influential doctrines in history is that all humans are divided into groups called nations

How has it been determined to be one of the most influential doctrine?--Eddylyons 18:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That also just doesn't make sense, is nationhood really a doctrine? I'd consider it the status of an established government, there is the doctrine of nationalism, but a nation itself is no more a doctrine than electricity.

Need a better intro. The first sentence should contain some sort of definition for starters. Nurg 06:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


As a matter of fact, I really think it is one of the most influential doctrines (that humans are divided in nations)! And there are esays about it, some that state the nation as something natural and bound to the person, but that this was forgotten for some time (and even that these nations are almost static) and some that state that the concept of nation itself was formed out of nationalism, i.e. that nationalistic movements tend to create nations and a common national historyt hat did not exist before.

As I know, the concept of the nation and nationalism has ben widely used for political purposes (good and bad) and established governments have used it to gain force or to try to get a basis of existence, especially in hard times. In this way, long-existing states dissappeared (not all well-functioning and even democratic regimes have to claim to rule over a nation and the population does not have to feel they form a nation to feel bounded to this state and its people), too, following a doctrine of exclusive nationalism and of exclusive nations, and even lead to wars in order to "protect the space of the ruling nation or of the nation that should possess the state or region". On the other hand, inclusive nationalism lead to wars in order to "re-unite" the nation (one extreme case is the national socialism of Nazi-Germany).

Further, nationalism, as something that creates the feeling of a nation, is something that appeared in Western Europe and was in that way unknown in other places before. What existed were loyalty bounds that united people in dominance and solidary unions. However, when these bindings started to fall apart (there was the ending of the Middle Age and the 30-Years War in Germany, the Turk invasion and the formation of the absolutistic states as a consequence of all these) is when the concept of the nation began to take force.--Nbez 23:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC) N.M.B.R.

The definition of 'a nation' is among the most controversial political issues, see Zionism. It has a separate section now.Paul111 17:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That's all well and good... but it's still not a "doctrine". Per Wikipedia: Doctrine (Latin: doctrina) is a code of beliefs or "a body of teachings" or "instructions", taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. How is the concept of a "nation" a doctrine by this definition?--Eddylyons 00:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review of Zionism

I asked for a peer review of the Zionism article, where the 'what-is-a-nation' issue is very relevant: see here Wikipedia:Peer review/Zionism/archive1.Paul111 17:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Ethnic groups

I've just added {{ethnic group}} to this article. There is no intention of implying that nations equal ethic groups. However, the scope of Wikipedia:Wikiproject Ethnic groups is broad enough to include nations; to quote from its statement of scope, "This WikiProject aims primarily to provide guidelines for articles about ethnic groups and nationalities independent of writing about nation-states." Hope this will be OK with everyone. Please let me know if you feel that there is a different, existing WikiProject with which this would more appropriately be associated. - Jmabel | Talk 23:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nations Vs. Ethnic Groups

Having read the debate(s) above I feel that the existing definition of a nation does not make a clear distinction from an ethnic group. I believe adding something stating "A nation seeks some form of political self-governance while an ethnic group seeks cultural recogition." This is a more widely accepted defintion of a nation vs. ethnic group (Guibernau [1995], Billig [1995] amongst others) and accounts for Welsh nationalism vs. Cornish\Southern USA cultural recognition.

62.136.170.79 11:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)mattthac (can't sign in on this computer) 11:49 27 February 2007


Agree completely with above post ..

I have seen a definition of " Nation " as " a Polity that is not subject to the jurisdiction of any other Polity " . ( sorry I can't give references ).

To me this is the only use of the term which fits the modern concept of the term Nation .

In the modern world ethnicity , common culture or genetic type etc. are practicaly irrelevant to the concept of Nation . For example Condoleza Rice shares basicaly none of those with George Bush but both are American Nationals .

In my Nation there are approximately 150 plus cultural groups but all make up one single Nation . All owe allegience to and come under the jurisdiction of a single overarching Polity .

Lejon 30 APRIL 07

[edit] About the reference tag at under "nationalism

I thought that the one only need references when there was a chance of anyone disputing something. If there is, it would be a lot better to put a "fact"-tag at the disputed phrase, wouldn't it? A very quick read now did not give me anything to obect to. I think the tag should be removed unless there is something to dispute. DanielDemaret 09:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naturalization

I think the following wording should be removed from the Nationalism section:

If the nation was defined only by citizenship, then naturalised citizens would be accepted as equal members of the nation, and that is not always the case. Citizenship may itself be conditional on a citizenship test, which usually includes language and/or cultural knowledge tests, see Life in the United Kingdom test

This is just plain doublespeak. The test in question is a filter on who may obtain citizenship and not something that keeps naturalized citizens from being accepted and treated as equals. JrFace (talk) 14:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See Also Deletion

I deleted the wiki-link to the page for List of Divided Nations. The page has a lot of problems and even the original author says he washes his hands of it. I think its fate needs to be decided before/if it is listed here. --Eddylyons (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent introduction

I really like the introduction this article. Well done! Aaker (talk) 00:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

See my comments above. A "nation" is not an influential doctrine. Such a statement makes no sense. Think "Monroe Doctrine". Look up WP's definition and tell me how "nation" meets that criteria. Then tell me how it is influential. --Eddylyons (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Share a common identity"

What's that suppost to mean? 122.105.217.71 (talk) 07:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. It's different in each "nation", as the article says so often.--Wetman (talk) 12:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revised opening paragraphs

My revisions and footnotes are intended to make the text more specific, more pointed and accurate in these axiomatic statements, and to support statements with examples and footnotes. I'm hoping the edits will inspire further improvements, and deter the jejune deleters and taggers. --Wetman (talk) 12:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)