Talk:Nathaniel Hawthorne

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More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: In the theories section of this biography there is a completely basely paragraph that spectulates that the later work of Nathaniel Hawthorne was written by his wife. It further asserts that it is likely that Franklin Pierce wrote it. No scholar of 19th Century American Literature would except this absurd idea. The University of Ohio has published the complete notebooks of Hawthorne in its Centential Edition. In these notebooks, Hawthorne works out some of the material that became his later work. In particular, his last complete novel, The Marble Faun, has direct correspondence to his notebooks in Italy. We also have the notebooks of his wife during their Italian visit. Its content is very, very different from her husband's. While she was a good artist, she was not a great writer. The idea that President Pierce wrote any of the late masterpieces of Hawthorne is laughable in the scholarly community. Please remove this material. It is seriously misleading to those seeking accurate information. It is also slanderous against the man who Henry James called the greatest American artist. Mihangeljones 10:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC) (edit)

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Contents 1 Information discrepency 2 Further Information 3 Sophia 4 Photos 5 The Way people saw it= 6 Category 7 Pornographic stories 8 When Mars Attacks 9 I have some theories 10 Navigation Box 11 Bibliography 12 DKE Reference 13 Poe criticism 14 Criticism section

[edit] Information discrepency

The current wikipedia article states "Hawthorne wrote in the comparative obscurity of what he called his "owl's nest" in the family home." According to "Elements of Literature: Fifth Course Literature of the United States. Edited by Kathleen Daniel. Published by Holt, Rinehart, and Winston. 1997. it was actually known as the "dismal chamber", can someone with editor rights please include this.

The "owl's nest" reference is from a letter Hawthorne wrote to Longfellow on June 4, 1837. From this same letter derives the footnoted quote in this article: "I have not lived, but only dreamed about living." I found this letter in The Viking Portable Hawthorne, edited by Malcolm Cowley. For an online source, see this page from Nathaniel Hawthorne by George Woodberry, where it is quoted. Here is the passage in question:

"Not to burden you with my correspondence, I have delayed a rejoinder to your very kind and cordial letter, until now. It gratifies me that you have occasionally felt an interest in my situation; but your quotation from Jean Paul about the 'lark's nest' makes me smile. You would have been much nearer the truth if you had pictured me as dwelling in an owl's nest; for mine is about as dismal, and like the owl I seldom venture abroad till after dusk."

In that same letter, a little further down on the linked page, Hawthorne again uses the image: "I intend in a week or two to come out of my owl's nest, and not return till late in the summer."

While looking for an online source of this "owl's nest" phrase, I found that he used it later in life as well. In Julian Hawthorne's biography of his parents, Nathaniel Hawthorne and His Wife (1884), the following link to Chapter 3, Part I includes a quotation from what Julian Hawthorne described as "the only trustworthy autobiographical fragment" of Hawthorne "known to be extant," which was "comprised in the following few paragraphs which he wrote out for his friend Stoddard, who was compiling an 'article' on him for the National Review, 1853." Here is the relevant passage from that autobiographical piece:

"From the press of Munroe & Co., Boston, in the year 1837, appeared 'Twice-Told Tales.' Though not widely successful in their day and generation, they had the effect of making me known in my own immediate vicinity; insomuch that, however reluctantly, I was compelled to come out of my owl's nest and lionize in a small way. Thus I was gradually drawn somewhat into the world, and became pretty much like other people. My long seclusion had not made me melancholy or misanthropic, nor wholly unfitted me for the bustle of life; and perhaps it was the kind of discipline which my idiosyncrasy demanded, and chance and my own instincts, operating together, had caused me to do what was fittest."

It would appear, then, that Hawthorne referred to his room as both an owl's nest, as in the above quotations, and as a dismal chamber, as referenced by yourself. - InvisibleSun 22:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It might be good to use both phrases, as you get a better sense of what Hawthorne meant from both. Nareek 00:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further Information

I'm removing the further information section. It's only a sentence or so long and is simply an assertion about Hawthorne's writing and personal philosophy (with several typos including in the section header). If it can be fleshed out and sourced it can certainly be added back.--Ahpsp 15:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I intend to make some changes to the descriptions in paragraph 6 as soon as RickK stops reverting them. There are glaring inaccuracies. For example, "The Blithedale Romance" is not about an elixir of life. Et cetera.

What do you say, RickK? Bds_yahoo

Out of curiosity, is Hawthorne's friend named Franklin Pierce the same as the 14th President of th U.S.? They graduated from Bowdoin within a year of eachother. If so he should be linked. -bmortimer

Yes, see http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.15456/article_detail.asp and http://www.eldritchpress.org/nh/lfp.html.

-- Gruepig 04:07, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sophia

The last revision by 68.223.13.132 greatly changes the picture of the Hawthorne's marriage. Can anyone provide a source for the claim that they had a "troublesome marriage"? Is there anything to suggest this in Sophia's journal or letters? For what it's worth, Melville seemed to think they had a happy relationship; he described their family as "the loveliest family he ha[d] ever met with, or anyone can possibly imagine" and says that Sophia "quite literally worshipped" Nathaniel. (Parker, Hershel. Herman Melville: A Biography) -- Gruepig 03:55, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• I wouldn't hesitate a whole lot about reverting out-of-left-field edits by anonymous IPs with only one edit to their "name" - if he has a source, it is up to him to return with it --JimWae 04:45, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)

Reverting. -- Gruepig 17:28, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What is this about Hawthorne dying while on a trip to the mountains? I just read an article in the New Yorker(March 14? issue) on his relationship with Sophia and her older sister Elizabeth. The article mentions Hawthorne dying, but I got the impression that he was sick for a while at his home with his wife when he died.

Also mentioned was a biography on Elizabeth Peabody. I'll see if I can find a copy of it...

I found a site that states Hawthorne died while on a trip to the mountains, it is http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/hawthorn.htm...

[edit] Photos

Moved here from User_talk:JimWae

Hello. I noticed you changed back the Nathaniel Hawthorne image which size I had modified from "thumbnail" to "frame". I did so in the first place so that the picture, in its real, smaller size, would look much better than this and not appear with such a low resolution. I understand from your edit summary that you fixed the picture so it would be the same size as the others. I also saw that you had previously arranged the three images so that they are all aligned to the right. I do understand that this arrangement (same size and aligned to the right) makes the whole article look better, but I still think it's unfortunate that the first picture looks so bad when it is bigger.

I have a suggestion. In my opinion, the article contains too many pictures for its size. The second image ([1]) is a portrait that is almost identical to Hawthorne's appearance on the last picture ([2]). That illustration is also the one that was added the most recently on the article. I think the second picture should be removed from the article. The first picture could be changed to its normal size, and be aligned to the right of the text at the top of the article. The third picture could be aligned to the right or to the left in the "Writings" section. I think the article would look good that way. What do you think? -- Audrey 5 July 2005 05:15 (UTC)

I was wondering why you changed it - I never noticed lack of resolution, but now see it a bit. Maybe there's a better photo with higher resolution http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/nh/hawthorne.html has the same photo in higher resolution - but less contrast --JimWae 2005 July 5 05:48 (UTC)

I uploaded a better resolution one myself. Better? --JimWae 2005 July 5 06:05 (UTC)

Ah, yes. This looks better. Thanks Jim. :) --Audrey 6 July 2005 00:00 (UTC)

[edit] The Way people saw it=

This section showed up yesterday, without any mention of it in discussion. I'm just going to delete it, if no one minds. It's uncited, unformatted, ungrammatical, and obviously unfactual. Check the revision history if you want to see it in its full badness.

[edit] Category

Oh please, you're just an illiterate twit trying to make himself sound smart by making others seem incompetent.

[edit] Pornographic stories

I am unable to find substantiation for the following comments:

"Prior to gaining fame, Hawthorne wrote several highly sexual and pornographic stories for sailors under an assumed name (this writing style would emerge in later stories as shown by Lora Romero's article, "Homosocial Romance: Nathaniel Hawthorne")."

The trufulness of this seems unlikely (the Romero article is not available for free online), but it has remained unchanged for a few days so it is possible I am wrong to think it is inaccurate. Could someone please provide a reference or remove this passage. Philip Cross 17:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This was just part of some ongoing vandalism to the article. It's now deleted. - InvisibleSun 18:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

InvisibleSun, besides being a stupid name, has displayed a terrible understanding of Nathaniel Hawthorne's writing career. The fact that InvisibleSun would consider acurate updates to wikipedia as vandalism is a sign that InvisibleSun should be banned from wikipedia

Interestingly, it turns out the original statement is true (Furthermore, prior to gaining fame, Hawthorne wrote several highly sexual and pornographic stories for sailors under an assumed name) as shown in the following article: "Pornography and the New Puritans" http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/15/lifetimes/25665.html--Hawthorne122 12:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• The above link doesn't work. Here is the link provided in the footnote by the editor(s) making this claim. The article, "Pornography and the New Puritans," is by John Irving. The following shows, in its entirety, all that Irving says regarding Hawthorne:

  "But lest you think I'm being paranoid about the iniquities and viciousness of our times, I'd like you to read a description of Puritan times. It was written in 1837 -- more than 150 years ago -- and it describes a scene in a Puritan community in Massachusetts that you must imagine taking place more than 350 years ago. This is from a short story by Nathaniel Hawthorne called "Endicott and the Red Cross," which itself was written more than 10 years before Hawthorne wrote "The Scarlet Letter." This little story contains the germ of the idea for that famous novel about a woman condemned by Puritan justice to wear the letter A on her breast. But Hawthorne, obviously, had been thinking about the iniquities and viciousness of early New England morality for many years.

  "Please remember, as you read what Nathaniel Hawthorne thought of the Puritans, that the Puritans are not dead and gone. We have many new Puritans in our country today; they are as dangerous to freedom of expression as the old Puritans ever were. An especially sad thing is, a few of these new Puritans are formerly liberal-thinking feminists."

  Irving then quotes from the story. Here is the quote in its entirety.

  "In close vicinity to the sacred edifice [ the meeting-house ] appeared that important engine of Puritanic authority, the whipping-post -- with the soil around it well trodden by the feet of evil doers, who had there been disciplined. At one corner of the meeting-house was the pillory, and at the other the stocks; . . . the head of an Episcopalian and suspected Catholic was grotesquely incased in the former machine; while a fellow-criminal, who had boisterously quaffed a health to the king, was confined by the legs in the latter. Side by side, on the meeting-house steps, stood a male and a female figure. The man was a tall, lean, haggard personification of fanaticism, bearing on his breast this label, -- A WANTON GOSPELLER, -- which betokened that he had dared to give interpretations of Holy Writ unsanctioned by the infallible judgment of the civil and religious rulers. His aspect showed no lack of zeal . . . even at the stake. The woman wore a cleft stick on her tongue, in appropriate retribution for having wagged that unruly member against the elders of the church; and her countenance and gestures gave much cause to apprehend that, the moment the stick should be removed, a repetition of the offence would demand new ingenuity in chastising it.

  "The above-mentioned individuals had been sentenced to undergo their various modes of ignominy, for the space of one hour at noonday. But among the crowd were several whose punishment would be life-long; some, whose ears had been cropped, like those of puppy dogs; others, whose cheeks had been branded with the initials of their misdemeanors; one, with his nostrils slit and seared; and another, with a halter about his neck, which he was forbidden ever to take off, or to conceal beneath his garments. Methinks he must have been grievously tempted to affix the other end of the rope to some convenient beam or bough. There was likewise a young woman, with no mean share of beauty, whose doom it was to wear the letter A on the breast of her gown, in the eyes of all the world and her own children. And even her own children knew what that initial signified. Sporting with her infamy, the lost and desperate creature had embroidered the fatal token in scarlet cloth, with golden thread and the nicest art of needlework; so that the capital A might have been thought to mean Admirable, or anything rather than Adulteress.

  "Let not the reader argue, from any of these evidences of iniquity, that the times of the Puritans were more vicious than our own."

  Irving then adds a comment to this: "In my old-fashioned opinion, Mr. Hawthorne sure got that right."

  And that's all there is about Hawthorne. Nothing about Hawthorne writing pornography, with or without a pseudonym. Nothing about sailors, either. This, in short, is just the continuation of vandalism by means of a hoax. - InvisibleSun 15:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When Mars Attacks

Is this reference a spoof? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adf3comcast (talk • contribs) 15:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] I have some theories

I have some theories that I have made up regarding Nathaniel Hawthorne, and I wish to air them in the section entitled "Theories". I ask that 2-3 Wikipedians sign on to these conjectures so that they will have a sufficient number of believers to merit inclusion under the obviously high standards used thus far.

1.) Although Nathaniel Hawthorne's works are commonly presumed to have been written by Nathaniel Hawthorne, space aliens wrote them.
2.) Franklin Pierce and Nathaniel Hawthorne were the same person. Think about it.
3.) A complex theory, still in development, involving a menage a trois between Sophia Peabody, Nathaniel Hawthorne, and Franklin Pierce

Affix your name below to signal your belief in the above theories. Thank you for any help. Bill Oaf 10:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Navigation Box

I created a navigation box for Hawthorne based on the one for Edgar Allan Poe. It's not perfect, but it's a start. Unless other editors think it's unnecessary, I will start adding it to the bottom of all the articles on Hawthorne's works. Midnightdreary 15:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

I've added in a bibliography for this author, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists of works)--Alabamaboy 00:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll say it here as I did on the article for Charles Dickens. That manual of style doesn't seem to say anything about requiring bibliography lists but just how to format them if you choose to do it (or, really, how to set up a separate article on it such as Bibliography of Jorge Luis Borges). So I vote for removing it. Alternatively, a separate article works for me too. =) --Midnightdreary 02:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the list of major works as it currently exists is fine. If the bibliography started to get much long, we'd fork the excess into its own article. But there would still need to be a short bibliography in this article. But since the main discussion on all of this is taking place at Talk:Charles_Dickens#Bibliography, why don't we continue talking there and go by what the consensus there is.--Alabamaboy 13:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I still disagree that there needs to be a bibliography. One of the criticisms from peer reviews and featured article status reviews of the Edgar Allan Poe page was that there was too much junk in it and not enough biography (fyi: there is no bibliography for Poe, and his is officially at good article status). Couldn't the same argument be made here as well? --Midnightdreary 14:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Every author article in Wikipedia must have a bibliography. I agree that articles shouldn't have too much junk in them, but bibliographies are not junk. In this article's case, the bibliography is short so there's no need to fork it. Best,--Alabamaboy 19:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DKE Reference

The article states that Hawthorn attended college from 1821 - 1825 and joined DKE while he was there. The DKE article says DKE was founded at Yale in 1844 which is 19 years after Hawthorne graduates.

Selhini 05:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

According to this DKE link, the chapter at Bowdoin (where Hawthorne went to college) wasn't founded until 1844. Hawthorne's son Julian became a member of DKE while at Harvard (see this link to his memoirs, where Part III has a subtitle "Football — Initiation into Delta Kappa Epsilon.") Perhaps a confusion of father and son? - InvisibleSun 23:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like it to me! I've removed the sentence. Thanks to Selhini for catching that and to InvisibleSun for doing some legwork. This just goes to show that this article really needs to be cleaned up and fully referenced! --Midnightdreary 00:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poe criticism

Twice now, different editors have added that Poe's criticism of Hawthorne was in part due to his opium use. Besides that the source cited at the end of the sentence doesn't support it, it's not NPOV and possibly original research. Of course, what really should keep it out of the article is that it's now understood that Poe was not an opium addict (and probably not even a user). So, please don't add that information again. --Midnightdreary (talk) 17:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

Currently, everything written in the criticism section is actually PRAISE. Either the title or the content should be changed, you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.247.6.167 (talk) 23:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, "criticism" does encompass both the good and the bad. Certainly, the section can be expanded. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Poe was innacurate about his assessment of Hawthorne. Poe used opium.

Therefore, Poe's use of opium was the cause of his criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.147.229.45 (talk) 14:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Poe did not use opium. That's a myth that's spread by 7th grade English teachers. Sorry to disappoint. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)