Talk:NATO bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade

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[edit] Exact location of embassy within Belgrade at the time

Which suburb/neighborhood of Belgrade was the embassy located in at the time of the NATO bombing? — Informant763 06:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It was located in New Belgrade — Beogradjanin292 07:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of quote

Hi everyone,

I have removed the following passage from the article:

High-ranking NATO sources confirmed in 2005 that the attack was in fact deliberate: "The NATO sources told Defense & Foreign Affairs that the attack was based on intelligence that then Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic was to have been in the Embassy at the time of the attack. The attack, then, was deliberately planned as a "decapitation" attack, intended to kill Milosevic." [1]

Because it gives the impression that the 2005 comments are widely accepted - they are not and are really only being reported by the Centre for Research on Globalization [2] — a source known for its promotion of alternative theories of the 9/11 attacks that are not accepted by the mainstream media. The alternative theory that the attack was deliberate is given a brief but far more neutral treatment in the previous paragraph. Needless to say, the sources are anonymous and their comments are not acknowledged by NATO or the United States. [3]. If anyone greatly objects to the removal we can reinstate the quote in a way that properly acknowledges the lack of credibility behind the claim. But I'm hoping since this is a very lightly edited article, the content's removal can just be accepted outright.

Peace all!

Cedars 15:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

"Because it gives the impression that the 2005 comments are widely accepted" Then feel free to rearrange it. But the source does adhere to wiki guidelines. Maybe you could add something to the effect: but this has not been verified from other sources, or something. A human 22:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] page move?

This has the potional to be something. However, shouldn't this article be moved to NATO Bombing of the embassy of the People's Republic of China in Belgrade so that readers know this is about the PRC and not the ROC? - Thanks, Hoshie 11:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The proposed name is a little long. Since most people have heard about this event and since I think Chinese is more associated with China than Taiwan anyway, I wouldn't change the name. --Ratberta 06:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Support the move. --estavisti 08:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

That really isn't necessary. For the Republic of China does NOT have any other diplomatic tides in Europe apart from the Vatican.

Foreign relations of the Republic of China TheAsianGURU 22:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CIA explanation

I just finished reading Legacy of Ashes and in it Weiner purports that the CIA used a tourist map to provide the location of the FDSR. (page 473 and 474) He also quotes Vice Admiral Thomas R. Wilson as saying he showed him a picture of the embassy to President Clinton provided by the CIA and said, 'We're going to bomb this because it's the Yugoslav department of military procurement.'

I feel like I should jump in and rewrite this whole section but am unsure how to proceed since the two sources (Tennet's which is currently cited) vs. the Weiner book which quotes from another administration official.

Since that I wrote the paragraph I would probably cringe if you rewrote the whole thing but copyediting is normal. Couple points is I think its best to separate out conspiracy stuff from a actual explanation of the CIA director. I don't know if he telling the truth but at least Tenent is in a position to know. If you read his statement (in the references) he says maps really didn't play a role but instead the actual databases were out of date. I would guess from that statement they were using computerize mapping. Having problems with old data and having problems converting addresses to coordinates are both common in GIS.

Couple of things that make we question Weiner's statements. At the time, I remember a newsperson saying it hard to believe the CIA had out of date maps since you can buy a tourist map with the correct embassy location. Then I think some government official said we cannot just use maps you buy out in a bookstore. Basically I don't think they would use a tourist map and if they did it probably would be more accurate (not the cause of the problem). Also about the part about showing a picture of the embassy to the president. I remember from the news reports at the time that NATO was running out of meaningful targets. So, after launching that many bombings we were still showing a picture every bombing target to the president? So it goes something like this: "Look here Mr. President this is where they buy their jeeps. We going to blow it tomorrow." Although that part is more believable than the first part its still hard to believe. If you add it make sure to include references. Ratberta 05:43, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious template

Is there any credible source that makes a claim even remotely like this one? Common sense(no common enough to not be OR) dictates that China could respond however it felt like responding. This statement seriously needs a citation. 152.1.147.78 02:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)(user:ikanreed not logged in)

Probably in a country of a billion people, there are a few people who believe this bizarre logic. But to follow the conventions for 9/11 and JFK if it really notable it should have it own "NATO Bombing conspiracies" article. This article is about what happened and we can have some other article about what people (who have zero proof) think happened. --MarsRover 04:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The whole article needs a rewrite

--JanusKN 15:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Chinese nationalists should not be writing US history - of violence.

It's ironic Susan Shirk's explanation is much much longer than the reaction of the Chinese public. It feels like even when the people killed were Chinese and the section is called "Chinese reaction," it is still focused on how one American sees this tragedy, or more accurately, accuses the public of being brainless robots manipulated by the evil commies. Very nice.--wooddoo ]] [[User_talk:Wooddoo-eng|Eppur si muove (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conspiracy theories in the lead

The lead paragraph is now 153 words long, of which 37, nearly a quarter of the lead, are devoted to what can most generously be described as speculation, and at worst is a conspiracy theory on par with 9/11 conspiracy theories. The article already has a section for conspiracy theories, and the information currently in the lead should be moved there, after being summarized breifly in the lead. As it currently stands, it violates WP:UNDUE to devote that much of the lead to a story which names no sources and is corrobarated by no other mainstrem media sources. Isarig (talk) 22:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The information itself is not speculation, although the details may be reported in a too-wordy fashion. Currently the text says

NATO later apologized for the bombing, saying that it occurred because of an outdated map provided by the CIA. This was challenged by a joint report from The Observer (UK) and Politiken (Denmark) newspapers,[2] which claimed that NATO intentionally bombed the embassy because it was being used as a relay station for Yugoslav army radio signals. CIA director George Tenet claimed the operation which led to the bombing of the Chinese embassy was the only one organized and directed by his agency.

The 37 words, I'm guessing, are the "This was challenged..." sentence. At the same time we're giving no space to Chinese reactions - did they claim it was deliberate? How about

NATO later apologized for the bombing, saying that it occurred because of an outdated map provided by the CIA. Few Chinese accepted this explanation, believing the strike had been deliberate.[1] One subsequent media report supported this view,[2] but this was disputed by other sources.[3] CIA director George Tenet said the operation which led to the bombing of the Chinese embassy was the only one organized and directed by his agency.

1 can be this paper from The China Journal hosted @ JSTOR, 2 would be the report linked already, and 3 could be this NYT piece which said the bombing resulted from "a bizarre chain of missteps" (i think it's a source in here already.)

Like it as not, the controversy, speculation, and conspiracy theories were the main focus of reportage on the event, once the bare facts were known. We'd be remiss in downplaying them simply because we judge that there was nothing to them - that's out of line with NPOV and NOR. <eleland/talkedits> 19:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with your suggested change. Isarig (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shirk section

I've returned the paragraphs on Susan Shirk's comments on the situation. Her views are a valid outside analysis of the reaction in China. The paragraphs do not say this is what was actually going on in the minds of the Chinese leadership. They are merely her opinions, but the material adds to the reader's understanding of the event. Dchall1 (talk) 18:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Liao, I removed that last paragraph about the suppression of US media. I didn't see anything in your source that said that; that article only discusses why US media did not follow up on reports that the bombing was intentional. It's WP:OR and WP:SYN to assert that this implies a conspiracy. If I've missed something in that article, please let me know. Dchall1 (talk) 19:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Response to Herunar: Your changes to the article actually introduced POV. The majority of reliable sources indicate that the bombing was accidental. Material from globalresearch.ca is not considered a reliable source - it can be cited to show that people believe the bombing was intentional, but it does not carry nearly as much weight as the Observer. Certainly your characterization that "nearly all" international media doubt the American explanation is incorrect. I don't see what's wrong with titling the section "US Response". It's certainly not a "theory" - it's what the government publicly said. Finally, I don't see any evidence that Shirk's notability or credibility are questioned - she's quoted on a reliable website, discussing her role and analysis of the situation. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 18:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no. The majority of reliable sources indicate that NATO claims that the bombing was accidental, but they do not independently confirm this. I agree with your version of the article however, except that I think that using the phrase "conspiracy theories" is also OR and should be removed. Nikola (talk) 20:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't like Conspiracy Theories either, but I can't think of anything else. I've put in "Alternative Views, but please change it if you have a better suggestions. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 21:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)