Talk:Nasal irrigation

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Contents 1 Merge proposal: Jala neti into Nasal irrigation 2 More citations 3 Saltwater available in a pressurized can 4 this doesn't work 5 Cleanup 6 No discussion of FDA or possible health hazards 7 Saline solution prep section 8 Neutral point of view 9 Major edit 10 "Jala" probably means "water" and maybe we should mention that 11 Removed video link 12 Removed links 13 Study referred to in Sinusitis Treatment: What Is New Is Old 14 Scientific evidence

[edit] Merge proposal: Jala neti into Nasal irrigation

Support. I proposed the merge because they are essentially about the same thing, but Nasal irrigation is the broader term. Jala neti would still be the main focus, but the merge would save duplication of material, and enable comparison to be mades with other techniques where relevant. --Singkong2005 21:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC) - Withdrawn

Having just read about traditional nasal cleansing in other cultures (see link under More citations, below), I can see that separate articles might be warranted, so I'll withdraw the proposal for now.

However, most Jala neti-specific material fart should be moved to Jala neti. --Singkong2005 22:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

In that case, I'm removing the merge tag. bobanny 03:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I put the merge tag there and I haven't withdrawn it. That comment is from a year ago. — Omegatron 06:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know when the tag originally went in, but there's not much discussion on the issue, and if it's been there a year, it could be there forever. After reading through both articles, Jala neti seems to be a variation on the same thing. I'd suggest going ahead with the merge, and if someone comes up with verifiable info showing Jala neti to be qualitatively different beyond what a subsection can accomodate, a separate article could be recreated. As is, it appears "Nasal irrigation" is a general, descriptive term that could easily cover the two. bobanny 19:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I count Not merge (2), merge (1) here above. Davin7 07:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge. No need for two articles. Perhaps name it "Jali neti (water irrigation). A "history" heading could describe jali neti, another could discuss it's growing prevalence in western culture, another could discuss briefly how it's done. --—oac old american century ^talk @ 00:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

According to Talk:Jala neti, there's more to it than just the nasal irrigation. If true, we should merge just the stuff about irrigation into the other article, leave a "Main article:" tag, and cover whatever else there is. — Omegatron 01:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I count Not merge (1), merge (1) here above. Davin7 07:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge. The Jala Neti article should be a subcategory in Nasal irrigation, as one of the methods used to do the said activity. 24.177.128.131 16:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep separate with cross-references. If the Mayo Clinic video is truly all that's meant by nasal irrigation, then the two topics are separate but related. Deuelpm 00:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Evidence? Explanation? — Omegatron 03:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I count Not merge (1), merge (2) here above. Davin7 07:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Not merge There is a difference between the two techniques. Also the acceptance is different. Davin7 07:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Not Merge Please observe the difference at the grassroots level. Jala Neti is a procedure in Yogic Kriyas. There are stipulations on how when and what for performing Yoga Asanas, Pranayama and Kriyas, Whereas Nasal irrigation is a free form prodecure. It could also be medically related. So there is no basis to merge the two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.197.89.130 (talk) 10:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Not Merge!! They are different. Neti pots are a specific way and nasel irrigation is not the same. Cailet

Not Merge Completely different techniques; Jala Neti has roots in ancient yoga practices and although similar to modern nasal irrigation, the overall philosophy is different. Spiral-architect 15:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More citations

I found Nasal irrigation and Jala neti helpful, but could be improved further with more citations, in line with Wikipedia principles of verifiability. Btw, this link has some interesting suggestions, but it would be better to find original sources, e.g. about traditional use of nasal cleansing in Scandinavia. --Singkong2005 21:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This could be a useful starting point for research: Abstracts of Medical Studies and Testimonials on the Benefits of Nasal Cleansing - but note that it's a commercial site. It would be best to look up the research referred to here, then cite it directly. --Singkong2005 00:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saltwater available in a pressurized can

Trade name Sterimar [1] You can easily do nasal irrigation at a bathrom sink using just your hands. Fresh water does work well compared to salted water.

[edit] this doesn't work

Pulsatile irrigation has the support of over 40 published medical reports only a few that have been listed in this article. Pulsatile lavage has been well studied and peer reviewed from the Journal of Otolaryngology to NIH. While much of the discussion on this page surrounds the use of neti pots which are anecdotally helpful as a cleansing hygiene product. It is disturbing that the citations referencing the efficacy of pulsatile lavage have been edited to state “The manufacturer of one irrigation system claims several published medical reports”. The citiations referenced in the article are listed with active links to the published medical reports supporting the efficacy of pulsatile irrigation and its advantages over non pulsating irrigation and 40 more can be listed as well. The current quailifier for the citations listed for pulsating irrigation is not fair and does a diservice to those that are tryinng to evaluate nasal irrigation products and their respective performance and documented claims. There are no qualifiers for the citations of the neti pot which has not had nearly as much clinical or peer review studies performed as to the efficacy of the product as has been performed on pulsatile devices which date back to the 1960's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grockl (talk • contribs) — Grockl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I know this is not a place to debate the merits of this treatment, but I have to throw in my 2 cents anyway. I've suffered terrible allergies all my life, to animals, pollen, plants, mold, dust etc. Until I was 14 I was doped up on medications and had trouble thinking. Then I started smoking, partly to stop some of the symptoms (which it does, by completely drying out the nasal passages.) I quit smoking a few years ago and my allergies all came back...then a friend gave me a neti pot. It was one of the great moments in my life...if only I could have had one 20 years ago. Now instead of a terrible allergy attack every morning in the spring I have one a week or less. I have less colds, I can exercise, and I don't mouth-breath any more. My quality of life is 1000% better.

For those who are complaining about the neti pot, you do have to get it working initially...it took me about a month to "get the flow going". I had 42 years of junk to wash out; like a high colonic, the first treatment is a doozy. Neti pots also do NOT work if you have a cold...and you can give yourself a nasty sore throat. That's a whole other kind of snot, basically! Joel J. Rane (talk) 05:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

WHAT DOES WORK.............. The only effective nasal irrigation treatment that works to restore ciliary function and remove purulent material is use of a pulsating nasal irrigator. These devices break down biofilm and allow the natural mucous layer to transport and remove pollen and bacteia normally. Neti pots are messy and inconvenient. They are marginally effective as a nasal wash. I encourge the use of pulsating nasal irirgation which is very effective for sinusitis, post nasal drip, congestion, and allergies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.11.175 (talk) 15:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I am a seasonal allergy sufferer and was given a nasal irrigation kit as a gift from a neighbor. I followed the enclosed directions on usage and had no problems using the kit. It worked great; both nasal cavities were immediately cleared and remained that way all day! I did experience minor saline burning in one of my nasal cavities but did not experience any of the saline doing down my throat; the liquid flowed from nostril to nostril. Nasal irrigation works for me!71.97.2.104 17:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)Choyce

I tried it just now .. the water just flowed through my nasal passages and straight down my throat. It doesn't stay in your nose --Froth 04:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You have to tilt your head further forward. --greenmoss 01:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You also need to lift your tongue into the soft palette of your mouth like you're going to say the letter "K" Mikebellman 06:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I tried it. It stayed in my nose, and there was a distinct and alarming burning sensation coming from my cheek area on the nostril that I started to put the water in. The pain lasted several minutes and was most disturbing... Pyrogen 15:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Weird. You used saline and pH balanced water, right? Did it get lodged in a sinus? I've heard that happens to surfers, and then drains out randomly at inopportune times. But if it's the right salinity I don't think it would burn; just feel plugged up.

I bought a little squeeze bottle kit a few weeks ago with pre-mixed packets of salt and baking soda (remind me to upload a picture), and have been using it occasionally. It works great for me. It's not astounding and magical and making my whole life better and everyone running happily through green fields or anything, but I can certainly breathe a lot better for a few hours afterwards, and I'm not getting nosebleeds as often. — Omegatron 18:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This does work. I have severe allergies and generally have taken some form of allergy medication nearly year-round. I'd read about this practice but had never tried it, thinking it sounded weird. Then, last Christmas, my mom gave me a neti pot as a gift. She had bought one for herself and begun using it regularly. The benefits for her were substantial; she completely stopped taking the allergy medication she'd been using, and now she doesn't even need to use her neti pot every day.

I haven't been that lucky, but I was able to reduce the amount of allergy medication I take significantly. Also, in the past I've suffered from occasional sinus infections due to blockages caused by my allergies, and using the neti pot ends those in a day or two at most, and I hardly get them any more. Anyone who says the water goes right down their throats is either doing this wrong or has a severe blockage in their sinuses preventing it from coming out the other nostril. When done properly with water at the right temperature and salinity, you don't even really "feel" the water in your nose and sinuses, it just feels sort of full.

I find this most effective in the morning. While you're sleeping, the normal sinus drainage doesn't really happen since you're laying down (especially if you have allergies or sinus problems), so mucous tends to sit in your sinus cavities and dry out. It is truly disgusting what sometimes comes out of there when you do this after rising in the morning, and it's good to think that you've gotten that out of your sinus cavities. I always notice an immediate improvement in how well I can breathe through the nose, and I rarely get sinus headaches anymore.Toroca (talk) 02:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Hopefully I haven't harmed anything in the major cleanup I just performed. Highlights of what I did:

• Removed a commercial link and a dead link
• Removed/reworked awkward/redundant wording.
• Used standard reference template

Some remaining work:

• The sinus irrigation section could still use a lot of work to sound like an encyclopedia instead of a howto.

Pursuant to policy on Wikipedia not being an Instruction Manual, I decided to Be Bold and removed the how-to information and placed what the methods are -- irrigation of the nasal and sinuses cavities. If someone can expand on those methods without turning it into a how-to article, that'd be great. Pyrogen 15:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• I identified an assertion that could use a reference
• One article was referred to by two different links, so I standardized on the Pubmed link.
• Avoid so much text quoting especially in the lead section. Paraphrase and citing sources is classier and easier to read, and still correctly attributes its sources.
• Find a more scholarly source than seniorhealth.about.com. Nothing against the site, but it's shy of the appropriate source for a Wikipedia article, especially one with a medical component to it.
• Pictures or diagrams would be great

-Quintote 05:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC) You can easily wash your nose at a bathroom sink using just your hands and plain fresh water works pretty well compared to salt water

[edit] No discussion of FDA or possible health hazards

Any research on potential hazards? Does the FDA have any stance on this type of therapy?

I'll try and see what I can find.OccludedFuture 07:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if you can find any evidence of negative side effects. We're not talking about some new, untested pharmaceutical, after all, we're talking about plain old salt water. I suppose if people are swallowing the stuff instead of letting it drain out their nose, they might get high blood pressure as a result.  ;) But still, the idea is to use water with a salinity about the same as human blood. No other chemicals or anything are involved. Toroca (talk) 02:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saline solution prep section

As kosher salt generally contains no additives, I removed it from the disclaimer at the bottom of the section. Likewise, in the paragraph describing how to prepare the solution, it referred to coarse salts as being "kosher or sea", but sea salt contains the aforementioned impurities, so I removed that remark. Whoever reverted my earlier edit to this end please take note and respond if you take issue. 72.196.104.129 06:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral point of view

This article reads like a sales pitch for the practice of nasal irrigation. It claims a large number of benefits without referencing any evidence. I'm therefore flagging it with a POV-check. (Incidentally, the POV of the Jala neti article seems to be better.) RPTB1 15:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major edit

I've edited this article substantially to deal with referencing and NPOV issues. Mainly, I've deleted a lot of the information about how to actually do nasal irrigation because it wasn't actually referenced for the most part. Moreover, it is much more professionally and clearly spelled out in the reference links - I think it's better to leave medical advice to WebMD and MayoClinic.com rather than Wikipedia! Gosolowe 16:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Jala" probably means "water" and maybe we should mention that

In Wiktionary it says that "jala" means water in Pali which is a South Asian language as far as I know. In Wikipedia searching jala also led to "water". I couldn't find "neti" in Wiktionary. "Sutra neti" which has an article in Wikipedia is a nasal cleaning practice that involves string. In Wiktionary it says "sutra" means thread or string. If I hadn't found the meaning of "jala" (water) I might assume after reading the article that "jala" means "nasal". Perhaps "jala neti" more acurately translates as "water nasal cleaning".

[edit] Removed video link

While it was marginally funny, I removed the link Neti pot use video as it is a joke video and not appropriate as an instructional tool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Estreya (talk • contribs) 00:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed links

I notice that te Himalayan Institute or a fan of theirs keeps putting their links in here. This is a store selling a product and has no place here. The photo used in the article currently is also theirs, but I've left that for now. If I find a better non-branded image, I will put that in here instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypersigil (talk • contribs) 22:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes this section needed cleaning up but Orangemike, you removed some links relative to research and left trendy news articles? I revised it bringing back the relevant links and also added a wikibook link which replaces the function of all the other links that attempt to satisfy the how to goals of the removed links.--66.169.91.5 (talk) 21:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Study referred to in Sinusitis Treatment: What Is New Is Old

First it says:

A study from the University of Wisconsin, School of Medicine demonstrates that an easy and inexpensive treatment is just as effective at treating these symptoms as the drug therapies.

Then it describes the study:

All participants were over the age of 18 and had to have at least 2 symptoms of chronic sinusitis (see above). All participants were instructed to continue using whatever medication they were using for sinusitis for the duration of the study.

Now how can they conclude that it's just as effective as medication when all the subjects are continuing whatever medication they were using? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There are a couple of options. One is that you compare pre-treatment to post-treatment measurements. This gives you evidence like, "I've taken this allergy pill for six months, and it didn't seem to do much good. Now I'm taking the allergy pill plus the nasal irrigation, and I feel that it (has/hasn't) improved." The other is that you keep everyone on their regular meds, but only do nasal irrigation in half of them. Then you can say that the meds alone group had this experience, and the meds+irrigation group had that experience. (This is particularly helpful if the sinusitis is affected by seasonal allergies, like hay fever.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific evidence

The Wall Street Journal had a story today on the neti pot, A Pot, Short and Squat, To Clear Your Nose Out By LAURA JOHANNES May 13, 2008; Page D2

Even more significantly, the WSJ story mentioned a Cochrane Collaboration study. (And the Cochrane Collaboration abstracts, unlike the WSJ, is free online.) That settles it, as far as I'm concerned. As far as I know, every major medical journal accepts the Cochrane Collaboration as the most reliable, non-commercial source of scientific medical information in the world.

Harvey R, Hannan SA, Badia L, Scadding G. Nasal saline irrigations for the symptoms of chronic rhinosinusitis. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2007, Issue 3. Art. No.: CD006394. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD006394.pub2

Nasal irrigation with saline (salt water) for the symptoms of chronic rhinosinusitis.

The use of nasal irrigation for the treatment of nose and sinus complaints has its foundations in yogic and homeopathic traditions. It is often prescribed as an adjunct to other treatments such as intranasal steroids or antibiotics. However, there is significant effort involved in preparing and delivering the solutions. This review summarises the evidence for the effect of saline irrigations in the management of the symptoms of chronic rhinosinusitis. There is evidence that they relieve symptoms, help as an adjunct to treatment and are well tolerated by the majority of patients. While there is no evidence that saline is a replacement for standard therapies, the addition of topical nasal saline is likely to improve symptom control in patients with persistent sino-nasal disease. No recommendations can be made regarding specific solutions, dosage or delivery. There are no significant side-effects reported in trials.

Nbauman (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)