Talk:Narcissism

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[edit] The definition is crating a lot misunderstanding to students and young people

Narcissism cannot be self love. It is the opposite.

An understanding is continuing in society for thousand years doesn't mean it cannot be redefined when we know better. Thousands of years people knew sun moves around the world doesn't mean we have to continue that. Please correct the definition or change the title like Narcissism: classical concept or something like that.

I edited as following but it was removed.

"A common misconception of narcissism is to define it as self love. A person with self love is happy with himself and his love often motivates himself to improve. A narcissist truly hates himself. Often frustrated with his own inabilities, confusion and misery, he stops feeling his own self anymore and bears a continuous sadness inside. If his grandiose self projection to others reflects a charming image of his own, then only he feels himself alive and becomes happy, and he becomes addicted to it." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.189.224.2 (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thought beautifully written, your edit was an unsourced subjective abstract centered on limited vernacular misuse of the term Narcissism. It is WP:OR and not appropriate here. 213.116.42.95 18:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Narc?

I had to remove that comment. Stereotype would be a much more succint way of referencing the fact that labeling is a short hand language in groups.

Twining 202

[edit] Ways to improve this article

I think this article could be improved by a larger emphasis on Cultural Narcissism. (see topic page for section on Lasch). There is so much room for enlarging on this. There is the entire matter of narcissism in all kinds of social, political geographic, ethnic and religious groups, etc. There is the entire topic of how Narcissism helps and/or hurts powerful national leaders. There are papers and books that discuss these issues without trying to label people.

Ideas, anyone? Could be an exciting phase for this topic! I am Kiwi 11:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Bravo, IP 83.146.13.49

Whoever you are, I thank you for your edit addition. It was exactly what the article needed, it seems to me -- an excellent concise defining of the very core of narcissism was really needed for the lead-off on this amalgamation of loosely related topics. My hat is off to you. Please consider coming back.

And yes, I noted the comment and link, but it is very tiny and inconsequential in the big scheme of things. Give it a few days. I am Kiwi 02:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

A question - Do you have any ideas on a title for this topic page? Any comments on my comments of yesterday? You won't hurt my feelings. This isn't "my" page, but everyone's. I am Kiwi 02:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPA Theory

This NPA theory hardly seems scientific. Mendelian genetics was state of the art a few centuries ago and is good enough to explain whether a pea is smooth or wrinkled, but human behavior is more complicated than that. As part of its description of traits, NPA theory distinguishes between whether blood rushes to or away from the face when angry. Just because the guy who came up with the idea has an M.D. doesn't mean he isn't a quack. If his theories have been published in any peer-reviewed scientific or psychological journals, that's a start. For now, his theory should be considered original research and not appropriate for Wikipedia.

In that vein, I am deleting his theory from this article.--NeantHumain 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


Hello NeantHumain.
True, it is not proven. But it has been well-established in dogs and cattle (and possibly far many more animals) that Trait Theory is firmly established (though naturally the traits of these lower animals are not identical to hypothesized inherited human traits). On this basis and on the basis that chimps and gorillas seem to show the same hypothesized inherited trait transmission as humans, it seems to support this theory, but is certainly not proven.
Of course, very much of what is postulated in science is not proven, but is hypothesized and then tested to prove or disprove the premise. It is also true that Dr. Benis is self-published, and there have been, as of yet, no researchers known to be involved in or planning to be involved in the testing of this theory.
True, even such great a thing as evolution is not proven, but it is substantiated by thousands of discoveries linked to sedimentary rock layers that can be dated. Also, developmental medicine holds to the adage that "Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny" This refers to the anatomical tracking of mammalian fetal development in many species. This goes far to giving supportive evidence.
In essence, I am in agreement with your decision and will remove it from another related topic. Thank you for posting about your reason for the deletion to this talk page. - I am Kiwi 22:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Regarding citations

The introduction to this topic article begins with a tiny bit about the disturbing myth of Echo and Narcissis (really worth a read under Greek mythology).

It is then explained that Narcissism in excess can be pathological in the Psychiatric/Psychological sense. This is fully explained and referenced in Narcissism (psychology) and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

In these same references are the citations for 1) narcissism as part of normal personality development and 2) abuse causing increases in narcissism.

I would rather hate to see all those citations carried over to this topic area where they will overwhelm and bury the links and books relevant here, especially when the concepts are already linked, plus the explanation and link to Narcissism (psychology) at the head of the page. Just my opinion. - I am Kiwi 19:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Narcissism Topic Deletions

Kirske. You state as your reason for removing, in the intro, the reference to many decades of psychiatric and psychological study and research into narcissism, regarding it being a part of a normal healthy psyche is your view that it is merely POV. This is not POV and it IS (at the least) a solidly Western cultural world view. It is also objective, based on thousands of studies. It is not a matter of my feelings or personal beliefs. I feel entirely neutral about the issue.

As for the other paragraph you deleted, it is very true and reliably documented that in severe cases of narcissism, where a great deal of problems in functioning in social, business and family relationships occurs, it is most likely an outcome of childhood abuse. Abuse can be physical or emotional. Abuse can also be caused by ignoring the child and treating it as an extension of one's hopes and dreams -- loving too much, spoiling too much is also abuse. It gives the child a falsely propped up sense of self and thus the child has no inner core of healthy narcissism and have a terribly low self esteem, lack of confidence.

A minor short paragraph or two giving an ultra-brief explanation of the other aspects of the word, which are intrinsically tied in to the cultural sense of the word, is necessary to lay the foundation of the article. It is as relevant to a discussion of the subject of the cultural sense of narcissism as is the referece to Greek mythology. Did you, by any chance, pause to check out the Talk:Narcissism page? If you have, then you will have noted why the links are embedded within the text of articles --- they are specificaly for people to find out more about the subject and increase their understanding of what is being talked about.

Now I agree that this Cultural Narcissism topic is yet a stub of a few random topics, all VERY briefly presently, loosely lumped into a sequence, and that the intro also needs a discussion of what cultural narcissism truly means. Instead, what is available now is merely a mishmash of topics. It also needs a thoughtful categorizing and a well thought out approach.

I am glad to see concern over topic development, but one should not delete in a topic where they have no knowledge of the subject, where they have merely POV and emotional reaction. What should be done is to either click the links and learn more, or post your complaints to the talk page Talk:Narcissism. There you can present YOUR POV and ask for feedback.

Going about deleting on the basis of POV is no better than going about creating topic copy based on POV. So come back and chat, don't delete. Such deletions border on pure vandalism and are time consuming to correct. Perhaps you will have time to do the necessary revisions?

Forgive all my incomplete sentences. I have a cold and am not up to snuff. Thank you - I am Kiwi 09:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Celebrity Narcissism

Needs to be stuff in here about celebrity narcissism.--Penbat 20:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

A.K.A; Paris Hilton..--Anus 08:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It's difficult with regards to common consent and undue prejudices. How do you source something like that, except if they openly admit it? It is difficult to do any more than speculate Ianbittiner 11:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section removed

Material on NPA personality theory reappeared for some reason, despite the agreement above to remove it. It appears to be pure original research with no currency in the field (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anthony M. Benis). I don't think it should be restored unless somebody is capable of countering that critique. --Michael Snow 23:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A possible campaign of vandalism

This was posted to several mailing lists last night [1].

The assertions in the post are entirely incorrect and deliberately inflammatory. As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge, all reference to, or text from, this individual's writing has been removed from the articles in question where he had posted it, because of it's unverifiability and inaccuracy.

I have have contacted this individual several times asking him which portions of text he feels infringe his copyright so that they may be deleted, and received no reply. --Zeraeph 19:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confused

(Crossposted to Narcissism (psychology)) -- New to this article, can someone explain how Narcissism and Narcissism (psychology) are intended to differ? I see a lot of overlap. Are there really two different articles here? Or are they really covering "narcissism" and "psychological theories of narcissism"? FT2 (Talk | email) 23:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

They are really covering Narcissism as a term in general use and Narcissism as a term in psychology, which, if you read the articles, you will see are quite different. --Zeraeph 23:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, that helps. I'd like to check my impressions a bit "step at a time", to make sure I understand the way it's working in both articles. Can you comment so's to make sure I'm staying with you on this?
  1. I just re-read the main "narcissism" article, in light of the above. It seems to cover mostly 4 main areas: narcissism in culture (dandy, new romantic, metrosexual), narcissism of a culture as a whole, narcissism as a basis for societally harmful self-image-protective behavior (medical narcissism), and research into the genetic basis of clinical narcissistic tendencies. Roughly in simple terms, correct?
  2. The Narcissism (psychology) article then seems to be a specialized article, that examines the concetp of narcissism within clinical medicine (psychology), rather than its cultural manifestations - ie, theories and specialist forms. Correct?
The genetic trait section on narcissism was the odd one out that threw me, as it seemed to cover similar ground to the psychological narcissism. I may have an idea how to improve that, because as written, it's essentially research into the genetic basis of the psychology (Alvarez/evolutionary psychology) or the personality disorder (Livesley et al), which are themselves subjects that are closer related to the psychology page than general use. FT2 (Talk | email) 23:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
NOW I see your confusion, when asked, the genetics people expressed a preference for being part of the generic Narcissm article over being confused with the psychological aspects of narcissisn which is a totally different usage. I suppose, one day, when there is enough material this should really fork off to a "Genetic narcissism" article? Do you think it is time? --Zeraeph 00:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


How about the following division? (ignore the crass titles, they're indicative only as I don't know the proper terms for all these)
Narcissism (general article):
  • Narcissism overview - what it is, and the divide between cultural and psychological aspects
  • Narcissism in society
  • Cultural roles and stereotypes (dandy, metrosexual etc)
  • Cultural narcissism (narcissism of a culture as a whole)
  • Self-image-protective behavior (medical and similar narcissism)
  • Narcissism in psychology (brief summary style of narcissism in psychology, and research into its basis, with a Main article: section header link)
  • Narcissism in myth and literature
Narcissism (psychological, clinical and biological aspects):
  • Definition and scope sort of overview
  • Functions of narcissism
  • Psychological functions and benefits of narcissism
  • Biological and evolutionary functions and benefits of narcissism
  • History of concept in psychology (incl. various theories and their proponents)
  • Other forms of narcissism
  • Acquired situational narcissism
  • Gender narcissism
  • Sexual narcissism
  • Research into narcissism
  • Genetic research
I'm not convinced by "genetic narcissism" as a separate article, mostly because the research doesn't seem to be about some separate genetic matter (it's not comparable to genetic causes of cancer as opposed to viral causes of cancer), ie, it's not a different type of narcissism that's covered. It's very clearly looking for genetic backing for the psychological behaviors covered in the psychology article. The above schemata would probably work well. FT2 (Talk | email) 00:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


Edit: I'm assuming from the title of Alvarez' paper that there's a separate area of interest in narcissism, related to biological and evolutionary aspects of the traits. I've drafted the above on that basis. If there's any 3rd article then an article "evolutionary narcissism" would be it, but it doesn't sound like there's enough to warrant splitting it from the other two. Thoughts? FT2 (Talk | email) 01:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting ideas there...though I'd be more inclined to keep sexual and gender Narcissism in the main article (they really straddle both, to keep them in main is less stigmatising) --Zeraeph 05:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


I left them in the psychology article since that's where they are now. I assumed that was for good reason. Reviewing I tend to agree with you that a place in the main article would work for sexual narcissism, but gender and acquired narcissism seem to be more psychological, and would fit well as a mention in the main article under psychology, but kept in the psychological article as at present. If that change is made, would the schemata above then be close to a viable one? FT2 (Talk | email) 23:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
To be honest I had forgotten that they were already in the Psychology article (well the sub heading does say "confused" doesn't it? So I stayed on topic. :o) ). They all straddle the line, but I am happy with your view, that would work. --Zeraeph 00:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
That cleanup and schemata would be mostly okay with you then? FT2 (Talk | email) 01:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Definately think it would be a great improvement. --Zeraeph 01:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Will leave it here for other views for 3 days (8 jan) in case there is any serious dissent or other collaborative ideas, first. As respect for others. FT2 (Talk | email) 21:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heritability

I have removed the Heritability study with Twins section because the study had no bearing on anything. Did no one consider the fact that twins might develop similarly because they live together for the better part of their lives? If they had done it with twins who had been separated since birth, the study might have some meaning. --Savant13 11:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but the study was controlled and is verifiable, the text was cited, so, you can't just delete it because *in your opinion* it is not valid, it goes back.
Also, as far as I can see, the study determined heritability by comparing the results from identical twins, with those of fraternal twins (no more alike than any other siblings) to arrive at conclusions. As fraternal twins are just as likely to be subject to the same environmental factors as identical twins, and the study compared the difference between the two, I really do not see your problem. --Zeraeph 12:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Zeraeph is correct. If a statement can be attributable to a reliable source then the statement belongs in the encyclopedia article. If you question the validity or reliability of the source, you can do that on the talk page. If the issue is one of broader controversay regarding the topic, then a separate section detailing the controversary, with sources, would seem appropriate. DPetersontalk 12:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I never meant to imply that foul play was involved, merely that the conclusions drawn were questionable. In addition, I would not assume that fraternal and identical twins are subject to the same environmental factors. --Savant13 13:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
To be honest, you can never assume ANYTHING about the factors affecting a test group, there are too many potential variables, even twins seperated from birth (who have shown similar tendencies in Scandinavian Studies) might be subject to either remarkably similar, or remarkably different environmental factors depending on the nature of separation. But the studies did show a distinct trend, and are, most impotantly, verifiable. However, if you can point out another study that contradicts these finding let's include it too. --Zeraeph 13:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Zeraeph. The study meets Wikipedia standards of being verifialbe and attributable to a reliable sourcee and so should be cited...as can other studies that find other results. This is an encyclopedia article, after all. DPetersontalk 17:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More positive Opening paragraph & wish for a image more directly reletave to subject.

I have added a more powerfull opening paragraph to cover the essence of this problematic disorder.The previous image was too graphic and appears to be a side tangent thats hardly reletave to the essance of the disorder.I beleive a more positive opening is in store.My opinion is that an image less graphic and more relitave would also help as an improvement.Fullertonart 11:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, NOW I understand the problem...let me try to explain. This article is for the general CONCEPT of Narcissism, quite independent of psychology, which has existed for centuries, NOT the disorder. Pathological Narcissism is NOT the topic of this article at all.
Narcissism (psychology) relates to all aspects of Narcissism in psychology, including the positive ones (Do you realise that we ALL have some healthy Narcissism? Without it we couldn't even have self esteem.).
However, for disorders of Narcissism you have two choices Narcissistic personality disorder or Malignant narcissism. Both are very different articles. As they are documented medical conditions, I am sure you can appreciate that all citations must be made VERY STRICTLY to medical and academic Reliable sources, but within that constraint, you are VERY welcome to come and help improve them. --Zeraeph 15:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Traits of a narcissist section

These are the traits of a narcissist? According to what or whom? --71.34.91.113 (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)