Talk:Napalm

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Just a short note (which can be deleted once someone acts on it)... I fail to see ANY reason why an article about canada's involvement in the vietnam war is linked at the bottom of the article. 59.167.157.65 13:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of grammatical errors in this page that should be corrected. - JWPhilo


Contents

[edit] Styrofoam vs. aluminum soap

Home-Made Napalm can be made by mixing Styrofoam with Gasoline until the gasoline will not absorb any more.
  1. Is this statement accurate? (Is the resulting substance really napalm? Or is it simply a napalm-like flammable jelly of some sort?)
  2. Had we resolved the "bomb-making instructions" school of ethics to everyone's satisfaction? - Montréalais

According to all sources I have found, the jelly substance is not technically napalm (doesn't contain naphthene or palmitate), but the military still calls it napalm. - ElusiveByte

In 1942 Harvard University scientists and the U.S. army chemical warfare service found a way to jelly gasoline that worked quite well.

They found that mixing an aluminum soap powder of NAphthene and PALMitate (hence na-palm), also known as napthenic and palmitic acids, with gasoline produced a brownish sticky syrup that burned more slowly than raw gasoline, and hence was much more effective at igniting one's target. The napalm was mixed in varying concentrations of 6% (for flame throwers) and 12-15% for bombs mixed on site (for use in perimeter defense).

This mixture was a big hit with the allied forces, who used it extensively in World War II in flame throwers and fire bombs in the latter part of the war. [1]

During the Vietnam war, a new napalm was developed called 'Napalm-B' which used polystyrene, gasoline (petrol) and benzene (All ready in gasoline). The new napalm was a lot more effective than the old type and the polystyrene used to thicken the gasoline made the substance even more sticky and harder to put out.

Why is this information here and not in the article? - ElusiveByte

I thought it would be a good idea to include a quote of a colonel admitting the use of napalm. I also made some minor edits including removing the specific reference to the brand name Styrofoam and replacing it with polystyrene.

ElusiveByte


Careful there. Since we've already differentiated between 'real' napalm and 'napalm-like' substances, it should be clarified here as well. MK77s are incendiary bombs but not napalm. - Ur Wurst Enema

I thought that napalm originally meant "sodium palmitate", i.e. the soap made by the saponification of palm oil by caustic soda? David.Monniaux 10:33, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] How to make Napalm

Shouldn't this go to WikiCookBooks or something? Should we have a guide on how to make anything, let alone a chemical weapon? Mark Richards 00:06, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The fact that recipes for it are widely circulated is noteworthy. The household-ingredients paragraph in its current form doesn't give enough detail to reliably make it. --Christopher Thomas 22:44, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mix the blown up whtie polystyrene with petrol (gasoline) in a bowl, put more and more polystyrene in till a thick gel is formed. Do not light it clsoe to it as it is highly flammable

You forgot benzene. Incendiaries with benzene, polystyrene, and gasoline burns much hotter than napalm and is just as sticky. These were used in Vietnam. The incendiaries used today are kerosine instead of gasoline based. For the proper ratios of benzene, polystyrene, and gasoline in Napalm B (Super Napalm), see http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/napalm.htm --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.125.49.252 (talk • contribs) on 22:40, 6 April 2006.

Do not pour the thickened gasoline back into the lawnmower gasoline can when you're done playing with it. 69.255.0.91 17:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burns under water?

Is it true that napalm burns even under water?

I think that depends on the concentration of naphthene and palmitate in the mixture. EisenKnoechel


I would not think that Napalm would burn under water, unless you mix a oxidizer with it. gasoline does not burn under water, and I don't think that Napthene and Palmitate are oxidizers, although I could be wrong

Naphthalene is purely a hydrocarbon, and palmitic acid is a carboxylic acid. Neither will act as an oxidizing agent. Napalm will _float_ on water while burning, however, and if a burning person or object is only immersed briefly, it could easily be reignited by an external source (including floating napalm or part of the burning object that wasn't fully immersed).--Christopher Thomas 22:24, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)


--- when mixed with polythene I believe it can burn under water

What's "polythene"? If it's "polyethene" or "polyethylene", that's just another hydrocarbon. You need an oxidizer if it's going to burn underwater. --Christopher Thomas 23:27, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

---:it floats on water so you don't really need to worry about it burning under water.

[edit] Attempt at subtle POV?

Did anon user 198.53.23.232 hope to accomplish anything by changing this sentence:

"The United States officially destroyed its last container of napalm in a public ceremony in 1991."

to

"The United States officially destroyed its "last" container of napalm in a public ceremony in 1991." (Note quotations around 'last')

besides attempting to add a subtle factual dispute without giving any evidence to support his claim?

TaintedMustard 08:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Duh. OK. I see the dispute. However, there is obviously an attempt to draw specific attention to it. In this sentence:

"In August 2003, the Pentagon admitted the use of "Mark 77 firebombs"."

"admitted the use" is bolded. These changes seem wholly unnecessary to me and nothing more than an attempt at adding a subtle POV, but I'll give the contributor a chance. If 198.53.23.232 can't give a valid reason for making these changes, I'll revert the page. I don't really want to stick a NPOV tag on the page for this.

TaintedMustard 08:09, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Alright. I'm reverting it.

TaintedMustard 09:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

if you visit http://tchester.org/fb/issues/napalm.html this site has info about napalm at a naval weapons station, that was there until 2001.

[edit] Napalm hurts?

Under "Usage in Warfare"-

“Napalm is the most terrible pain you can imagine,” said Kim Phuc, known from a famous Vietnam War photograph. “Water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. Napalm generates temperatures of 800 to 1,200 degrees Celsius.” [1]

Like many Vietnamese children before and after her, Phuc sustained third-degree burns to half her body and was not expected to live.

Wait a minute. If napalm burns at 800 degress Celsius, and induces third degree burns, how exactly does it hurt now?

Third-degree burns can themselves cause pain if they are also surrounded by areas of second-degree burns. It seems reasonable to assume that in the process of being burned from napalm there are always going to be tissues not quite to the level of complete nerve damage. --Fastfission 22:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
so, burns are the most terrible pain. It doesn't matter what caused the burn. I think the photo is fine, as is the caption, but the extra comment seems pov.--Kvuo 00:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree, but the pain referred to are probably not the burns induced by anything BUT the second-degree burns caused by napalm. Any thoughts? --The1exile 13:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The extra comment is POV? Fastfission, unless you're talking about the 'point of view' of someone who has been burned by it, made comment on the experience immediately thereafter, and lived, then I doubt you know a lot of people who have been burned by napalm.
However, technically, according to the rules on POV, the statement that Kim Phuc said the quote--which she documentedly did--stating that she did, in fact, describe it this way, is totally NPOV. No judgement is made as to the veracity of her description, except to note that all records indicate that she was, in fact, lit up by the stuff.
As much as it might entertain me to suggest that you supply a balancing, more neutral description of the sensation of being burned by napalm, unfortunately Wikipedia prohibits original research.

The quote that begins "Napalm, contrary to popular belief, is not necessarily a painful or inhumane weapon..." has a link to the Napalm page at GlobalSecurity.org, but the quote is no longer there. I checked at the Internet Archive (web.archive.org) but couldn't find an earlier version of the page. -- Bookish 14:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that any burn would hurt in some instance, it is definately disfiguring and wouldnt wish it on my enemies (no pun intended). for it to be painless, there would have to be 3rd degree burns then instantly afterwards, no burns which i think may be impossible and if its possible id hate to meet the people experimenting with this theory —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.191.219.216 (talk • contribs) 22:01, November 12, 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't Napalm cause chemical burns as well? I believe a chemical burn would inflict just as much damage on someone as an incendiary burn (in general). 24.131.183.162 19:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)Darkstaruav

  • Napalm doesn't cause any sort of chemical burn, and I agree with the assertion that the quote is being used for POV purposes and causes the article to contradict itself. It's also a great example of an uneducated and uninformed layperson expressing a medical opinion. The reader, unless they know better, is left with the idea that napalm is some sort of nuclear chemical warfare goo that causes instant agony, lit or not, dry or wet. Oh, and it's apparently a "chemical warfare agent" too. Bullzeye (Ring for Service) 09:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A United Nations convention?

Do you mean the Convention On Prohibitions Or Restrictions On The Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Excessively Injurious Or To Have Indiscriminate Effects, a.k.a. CCCW or CCWC?

Here is the text of it:

http://www.mineaction.org/docs/120_.asp#p3

It was finished in 1981, not 1980 from what I can tell, and I believe the US signed it in 1995, according to this document (which isn't loading very nicely, but is in google's cache):

http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~treaty/CCWC.html

Signed is not equivalent to ratified. Under the US Constitution, only treaties ratified by the Senate (and not successfully vetoed by the president) have the force of law in America. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.125.49.252 (talk • contribs) on 22:40, 6 April 2006.

It does indeed ban the use of incendiaries (including Napalm and Napalm-like substances - but not those used primarily for smoke or illumination like WP) on or near civilians.

Perhaps someone should stick the convention up somewhere and reference it? I imagine it's public domain but I'm not so sure about such things so I won't do it myself.


Why is Agent Orange listed in the See Also section?

[edit] Other countries use/development of napalm related weaponry

Should references be made to this? For example I have heard from friends and unreliable sources that China has developed napalm missiles for its MiG's.Can anyone confirm this or mention references to other countries? --The1exile 18:58, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Germany was the first user of napalm. This was during World War 2. The French and British quickly followed suite. Americans then also used it when they began to fight in Europe in WW1. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/napalm.htm --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.125.49.252 (talk • contribs) on 22:40, 6 April 2006.

[edit] Very little value as a weapon.

Napalm is mostly a terror weapon. It will not hurt the military's tracked APC and battle tank vehicles, all tanks of the WARPAC were modified to be immune to napalm during the early 1980's. It is only good against civilians. 213.178.109.36 13:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Napalm is effective against troop concentrations. Keep in mind that most countries have regular infantry units that are not mobilized by APCs, or are in light vehicles. Tabmoc72 22:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Napalm is not mostly a terror weapon. It is highly effective against soldiers in trenches, fox holes, pill boxes, bunkers, and cave fortifications. When dropped as bombs from aircraft, one of these can immolate an area 100 yards by 300 yards (larger than three football fields). Since napalm is liquid and is very sticky, it is impossible for any soldier in this area to escape its effects. Napalm is also highly effective in destroying ammunition and fuel, as well as other equipment like tents, duffel bags, radios, computers, and unarmored vehicles. Napalm also consumes all or most of the oxygen in its surrounding causing enemy personnel to aphyxiate. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/napalm.htm --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.125.49.252 (talk • contribs) on 22:40, 6 April 2006.

Take a break trolls. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 05:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Styrofoam vs. aluminum soap, take 2

I've checked this article after not looking at it for a few months, and have found that someone has inserted multiple statements that napalm is gasoline jellied using styrofoam.

This is completely incorrect, for reasons noted in the other thread with this title. Military napalm is gasoline jellied using other agents (aluminum-based soaps of at least two organic precursors). The styrofoam version is the least useful of the several home-brew "napalm-like" recipes that have been circulating electronically since the early 1990s. It produces gasoline-based goop that burns. The similarity ends there. I'm modifying the article appropriately. --Christopher Thomas 20:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually this is technicaly the previous post is incorrect considering that the Naplam used in vietnam was a new mixture consisting of 46% Polystyrene, the Chemical name of styrofoam,33% gasoline, and 21%benzene. While you can't get that much benzene, gasoline is already 4% benzene. So the mixture is not exact but the ingrediants are correct. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.62.107.235 (talk • contribs) on 22:33, 9 May 2006.
The sentence in the first paragraph was added by 209.222.36.58 (talk · contribs) on 19:03, 20 January 2006. I'm assuming that this was a good-faith but misguided edit.
The sentence in the "background" section was added by 209.80.152.2 (talk · contribs) on 8:23, 24 January 2006. It's inconclusive whether or not this was intended as vandalism, as the same IP address has multiple vandalism warnings on its talk page.
Both of these sentences have been removed. --Christopher Thomas 21:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pop-culture references to napalm

I've moved the following sentence added by 68.228.147.178 (talk · contribs) here:

also in one of the megaman games there is a robot master named napalmman

If pop-culture napalm references are considered appropriate for this article, they should probably be in their own section. Potentially notable references include:

My vote is that there aren't enough notable references to make adding a section about them worth it, but I'm putting the idea forward for discussion anyways (as something along these lines tends to get added a couple of times per year). --Christopher Thomas 22:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

  • "Tyler Durden" (Brad Pitt) gives a ficticious recipe for napalm in "Fight Club" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.36.180 (talk) on 02:24, 26 February 2006
Odd that the publishers/producers deemed it safer to give a fake recepie than a real one, after all a "Real" napalm substitute should burn slowly and evenly. What does orange juice concentrate do? MAXIM magazine, a publication that I freely admit often screws around with its readership, claimed that they tried mixing orange juice concentrate and gasoline and thought it worked at a 2 parts gasoline to one part concentrate ratio. Shenanigans? 66.41.66.213 06:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Napalm in the Iraq war

I've reveted the changes made by User:216.79.146.64 on the above subject because:

  • Such claims need to be backed up by references
  • The contribution was strongly POV and was indistinguishable from vandalism

Sorry for the multiple reverts - I was struggling to find an acceptable version of the contribution. In the end I had to it completely! Waggers 15:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indeed it is a chemical weapon

The UN convention on chemical weapons (http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/0/3f233cb0f0c580f8c125641f002d42a8?OpenDocument) reads as follows:

1. "Chemical Weapons" means the following, together or separately:

(a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes; (...)

2. "Toxic Chemical" means:

Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. This includes all such chemicals, regardless of their origin or of their method of production, and regardless of whether they are produced in facilities, in munitions or elsewhere.


Clearly, napalm is a chemical weapon causing death through a chemical action. Bloomberg 20:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

  • No, it does not cause death through "chemical action" in a strict sense, which refers to the effects being a direct product of the exposure to the chemical itself, not a secondary effect. Napalm it causes death through flame, explosion, etc., not exposure to the chemical (consider the difference between TNT and nerve gas: both are chemicals, but only one kills via direct exposure to the chemical itself; TNT kills by explosive force or fire). As our page on chemical warfare rightly specifies: "There are other chemicals used militarily that are not technically considered to be "chemical weapon agents," such as: ... Incendiary or explosive chemicals (such as napalm, extensively used by the United Statesin Vietnam, or dynamite) because their destructive effects are primarily due to fire or explosive force, and not direct chemical action." Hope that clarifies things. --Fastfission 22:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
  • In point of fact a contribution above clearly makes the point that napalm kills not only by contact, but by consumption of the oxygen from the surrounding environment, thus causing asphyxiation. This is clearly a case in which deaths arise from the chemical properties of napalm, and therefore endorses the proposition that napalm is a chemical weapon. User:Reiner_Torheit
  • And as a further bit of clarification, notice that napalm nor any other explosive appears in the "Annex on Chemicals" to which the treaty refers as a list of what is considered to be chemical warfare. --Fastfission 22:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that one's OPINION of what constitutes a chemical weapon is not the deciding criterion. The decisions of the relevant international bodies are the final word. "Well, I'd say this effect is chemical" is an opinion, not international law or treaty. Michael Z. Williamson209.43.8.77 03:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


In response to Reiner_Torheit, the napalm only consumes oxygen when ignited, and therefore, is due to the fire. Im not sure about the "death by contact" thing, but Napalm is mostly just a combination of fuel and catalyst for combustion.---Alex Showell

While Napalm is a chemical it does not fall under the chemical weapons definition provided by the UN. Napalm falls under incendiary weapons, not chemical weapons, as it killing property is its flammability. Same general idea for White Phosphorous.--LWF 23:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalizing

Why is "napalm" capitalized in the article? Seems to me that it should not be. --Yath 17:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


Im not the most educated person in the world but i think you are putting too much emphasis on how things are worded rather than the subject at hand. Griping about quotation marks in a sentence has nothing to do with the history of napalm other than direct quote. I read this to learn about napalm, not take a punctuality class. If there is wrong information then correct it, but if a quotation mark or capital letters have no effect on the statement, then why worry about it. It seems that most of the information is correct and some people love to correct others, since there is nothing to correct pertaining to the information, they choose to correct spelling and punctuation (by the way some of the corrections had misspellings in them)...... THEY WHO THING THAT THEY KNOW EVERYTHING, HAS A LOT TO LEARN—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.191.219.216 (talk • contribs) 21:58, November 12, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tails!

You all remember Tails, that cat-thing that Sonic used to hang out with? Well, in one of his games, didn't he have a napalm-based weapon? (Please respond on my talk page.) tinlv7 01:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This isn't your personal blog. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 05:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In A Car...

How badly would a car (and passenger(s)) suffer if dish soap was poured into it's gas tank? I've read a few articles on napalm and napalm-like subsitiutes that dish soap and gasoline creates a similar compound, and I've been wondering as to the validity of the articles' statements. TheChrisParker 21:35, November 18 2006

You shouldn't be allowed to edit Wikipedia if you think adding dish soap to a car's gas tank would somehow create an explosion on its own. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 05:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Most dish soaps i know of aren't flammable anyway so I don't see how it would help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.179.114.241 (talk) 02:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm..

Was it not the US AF napalm bombing Trang Bang village area??

No. It was the work of the then-South Vietnamese Air Force. The Aircraft used to deliver the napalm was the A-1 Skyraider.Wikiphyte 16:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Usage in Warfare

Even though one might argue that the present title for this section is broad, it does not encompass all the information present inside it. I think Kim Phuc's statements would be better served under a "Controversy" heading. Also, anarchist cookbook recipies clearly don't fall under the heading of usage in warfare. If I find the time, I'll make these edits soon. Nosferatublue 21:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] qoutes

can someone put qoutes around "phuc sustained..." Jacob.vankley 17:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Use in Second Gulf War

I've read references (good ones) about the use of Napalm by the US military during the latest Gulf War. Yet there is no reference to it in the article. Any reasons why? --86.146.193.72 15:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History - citation for first use in Europe

I just removed a citation for the first use of Napalm in Europe in WWII. The link appears to be dead, and the version on the internet archive does not seem to support the sentence. Anyone have updated information? --TeaDrinker 17:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which counties have used napalm in war?

The text in the article on napalm reads:

Napalm has been used recently in wartime by or against: Iran (1980–88), Israel (1967, 1982), Nigeria (1969), Brazil (1972), Egypt (1973), Cyprus (1964, 1974), Argentina (1982), Iraq (1980–88, 1991, 2003 - ?), Serbia (1994), Turkey (1963, 1974, 1997), Angola, France (1946-1954, 1954-1962), United States.

Note the text equivocates between those who have used it and those who have been victims of it, "Napalm has been used recently in wartime by or against". This should be corrected by those who know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markinship (talk • contribs) 06:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NAPALM with soap

Can you really make napalm using ordinary soap? Of course, I don't mean just putting it in benzene but can you really create this highly flammable with just these two ingredients? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MavericK Long Range (talk • contribs) 14:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)