Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (operas)

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See also discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Original language opera titles

I have added the New Grove Dictionary of Opera as a basic reference. In fact I think it should be the main reference rather than the larger, more general work covering the whole of music. I don't believe this makes any difference regarding naming conventions, but it would be good to draw everybody's attention to the four volumes on opera.

Kleinzach 20:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] synch with musical compositions

Does it make sense to more-or-less synchronize our efforts with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pieces of music)? Fred 03:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "If Grove is wrong . . ."

If Grove is wrong, Wikipedia could still use the correct form. French Opera names should be rendered in French language usage, which is detailed at the WikiProject France page. There should be no exception, just because it is opera. It is really absurd to think that every little segment of Wikipedia could establish its own naming conventions disregarding the rules of the original language (if rendered in it) and literary titles use one, opera titles another, geographical names still another naming convention made up just by anybody anyhow....

Besides, the statement on the Opera Project page that "in Italian and French, only proper names are capitalized, e.g. 'Il diluvio universale', 'Ugo, conte di Parigi', 'Le nozze di Figaro', 'Les mamelles de Tirésias', 'Les Indes galantes', 'Les contes d'Hoffmann', 'La vie parisienne'" is WRONG. In French the first word after the definite or indefinite article is capitalized: 'Les Mamelles de Tirésias', 'Les Contes d'Hoffmann', La Vie parisienne', .... Kraxler (talk) 02:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all Grove is not wrong. We have been through this issue before. Unlike German and English there is no one, single standard form of French capitalization. Grove (edited by Macmillan) - and Oxford incidentally - adopted one system which the opera project have followed. You obviously favour another.

The Opera Project which you describe as a "little segment of Wikipedia" has 4,100 articles. About 220+ are on French operas with several hundred references to the names of French operas, so making any change to project guidelines would not be trivial.

If you want to raise this, then do so on the Opera Project, but I would ask you to be civil and not write under the assumption that you have a monopoly on the truth. -- Kleinzach (talk) 03:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not claim a monopoly to the truth, I stated the position of the WkiProject France, which includes a whole bunch of Frenchmen, and usage on French Wikipedia, which includes ALL articles on operas in French language. On the other side, you certainly can not be right, since your own position is incoherent. Stating that the Opera project would render the original titles in their original language and doing it contrary to usage in Wikipedia's own French edition. That the debate was up once already is no reason to correct belatedly something that is wrong. 4100 articles out of 2.7 million is certainly a very little segment.Kraxler (talk) 16:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Grove is definitely wrong. See here the statement of the Académie française concerning titles of artworks:

I asked: "Il y a une règle pour écrire des titres des oeuvres d'art concernant l'usage des majuscules? La graphie correcte serait "Le Mariage de Figaro" ou "Le mariage de Figaro"; "Les Pêcheurs de perles" ou "Les pêcheurs de perles" ou "Les Pêcheurs de Perles"?

and received the following answer: "Monsieur, La règle est de mettre une majuscule au premier nom et aux éléments (articles ou adjectifs) qui le précèdent, et de ne plus en mettre ensuite. On écrira donc Le Mariage de Figaro et Les Pêcheurs de perles. Cordialement, Patrick Vannier <dictionnaire@academie-francaise.fr>"

Translated: "Dear Sir, The rule is to capitalize the first noun and the elements (articles and adjectives) which precede it, and not capitalize the following elements. One writes correctly Le Mariage de Figaro and Les Pêcheurs de perles. Cordially, Patrick Vannier

As you see, there is a definite rule about this, the abovementioned rule (a) is correct, whereas the variant usages are mistaken, even if they are used by people who do not know the rule. Mr. Grove has chosen the wrong usage, but since Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, and not a teenage-blogspot, we should correct it. Kraxler (talk) 04:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see the discussion here. You are entitled to your opinion but not to force it on other people. Please no more of these WP:POINT attacks. -- Kleinzach (talk) 04:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that I'm disrupting Wikipedia with this, since many times in the past and probably also in the future, anybody who knows the rule on French capitalization, will be tempted to move or correct the mistaken opera titles (I won't do it, be certain of it....), and you will have to defend your wrong usage like a bull-terrier again.... I'm sorry for you, but I have done my duty. Kraxler (talk) 04:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt Grove's capitalization is the best policy, as elsewhere; I deny it is consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

For the Opera Project's latest response to this issue see:[1].Voceditenore (talk) 22:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)