Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (baseball players)
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[edit] Prior discussion
The Baseball Player Task Force previously discussed this matter at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Players#Naming conventions. Caknuck 04:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Why not broaden this to all pro athletes? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 04:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how bad of a problem other sports Wikiprojects are running into, but if you look at the original discussion I linked above, you can see just how much of a mess the baseball bio articles is. (As far as the magnitude of content, I imagine that soccer may be the only other sport with as many athlete articles.) There is nothing, however, to stop other people from drawing up guidelines for other sports as needed and merging it into an all-encompassing set of conventions. Caknuck 05:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Looks good to me. I think that every solution is sensible and that all the major cases have been discussed. The only things that didn't arise are what to do if there's a need to disambiguate someone who was both a player and notable for some other reason, e.g., Joe Schmoe (baseball player and U.S. representative), but I think these can all be taken on a case by case basis. Good work. (To answer Night Gyr, I hope other sports will look at these guidelines and decide if they're useful. Some sports don't have as set positions as baseball but are more closely affiliated with certain teams, so they might reverse the order of position vs. team). -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 06:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Something tells me that if Rep. Schmoe isn't the most notable Joe Schmoe around after a pro baseball career and getting elected to Congress... Caknuck 06:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Do you use (baseball player) in an instance where a player shares his name with a player who contributed to baseball in other ways? For example, Jimmy Williams is the name of a notable infielder in the early 20th century, a member of the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame who coached at the big league level, and a 19th century baseball manager who is not to be confused with the 20th century manager Jimy Williams). If all former Major League coaches are notable enough to be on Wikipedia, I've found at least one other example of this occuring. transaspie 07:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. I'll add that in. Caknuck 07:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response. I'll see if I can find other ways the rules can be messed up. :) I've been researching some lately but I've found that my own suggestions can be messed up in the same way. I just wanna close every loophole possible. -- transaspie 08:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. I'll add that in. Caknuck 07:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Expand to cover all sports?
The discussion should not be limited to professional baseball but should include all professional sports (arguments can be made to expand this to all sports), as American football's two Gene Washingtons and a number of duplicate names with the last name Williams can show. This should go to a larger audience as this is clearly needed across the board as a disambiguation/naming convention issue, and it would not be proper for one set of standards to apply to baseball articles, another to basketball, yet another to American football, even another to ice hockey, and so forth. Is there a disambiguation rule for articles for multisport athletes? B.Wind 16:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think you all just want to find more work for me to do. If consensus is leaning towards expanding the naming conventions to cover all athletes, then I can get to work on that. Yea? Nay? Caknuck 18:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- If anything, it should be ultimately less work for you (there seems to be a similar discussion going on with the Australian football editors) once it gets going. I'd strongly recommend bringing it up at a more "centralized" location for a more general input. Ultimately you'll help shape WP:NAME across the board. So... YEA. B.Wind 20:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Disambiguating names
Note the special case of Frank Thomas. Just a heads up. YechielMan 22:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have a question related to that, actually. If we stop using Frank J. and Frank E., do we have to use Frank Thomas (baseball designated hitter) for the Big Hurt? He's played there a lot more than first base in his career. That looks even more unsightly than (baseball left-handed pitcher) and (baseball right-handed pitcher). Or, if we consider other tags, (baseball starting pitcher) and (baseball relief pitcher).
Personally, I think the Big Hurt is the most notable Frank Thomas, and shouldn't NEED a disambig... -- transaspie 23:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- At first glance, I agree that the present day Frank Thomas is more notable and should occupy the article space at Frank Thomas. However, I may be guilty of recentism there, as the elder Thomas was an all-star and a dangerous power hitter in his day. I considered moving the contemporary Thomas to Frank Thomas (baseball first baseman), but the elder Thomas made 268 starts there. Though it is awkward, Frank Thomas (baseball designated hitter) and Frank Thomas (baseball outfielder) is probably the best way to go. Caknuck 00:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- When I first noticed the phenomenon, the article titles were "Frank Thomas {AL baseball player)" and "Frank Thomas" (NL baseball player)". I think the current names are good. YechielMan 20:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe I should add League as another criteria, as it could also be used to American Association and Negro Leagues players. Make sense? Caknuck 20:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
- American Association as in the 19th century major league? I think the other major leagues are covered by other guidelines. You bring up a good point with the Negro Leagues however. What would the disambiguation look like though? Using a real player as an example, do we do something like Luis Tiant (Negro League) or Luis Tiant (Negro League player) or something else? (Never mind that, in reality, we'd just list him as Luis Tiant, Sr., this is just an example.) And, also...if I'm right to assume that we have to mention baseball in them somehow, we may end up with Luis Tiant (Negro League baseball player), which is cumbersome but slightly correct. How would it work out? -- transaspie 05:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
- Bear in mind this is a naming convention for all baseball player articles, not just major leaguers, so its scope would include players from the Negro Leagues, American Association, Federal League, Japanese Central and Pacific Leagues, etc... As for the naming, I think "(Negro Leagues baseball player)" would be the format that would work best. Caknuck 03:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
- American Association as in the 19th century major league? I think the other major leagues are covered by other guidelines. You bring up a good point with the Negro Leagues however. What would the disambiguation look like though? Using a real player as an example, do we do something like Luis Tiant (Negro League) or Luis Tiant (Negro League player) or something else? (Never mind that, in reality, we'd just list him as Luis Tiant, Sr., this is just an example.) And, also...if I'm right to assume that we have to mention baseball in them somehow, we may end up with Luis Tiant (Negro League baseball player), which is cumbersome but slightly correct. How would it work out? -- transaspie 05:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe I should add League as another criteria, as it could also be used to American Association and Negro Leagues players. Make sense? Caknuck 20:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Recent changes
Seeing as how nobody else has come here to comment, I've made what I think is the final tweak to the proposed document:
- Per transaspie's suggestion, I have added league as another disambiguation criterion.
After some mulling over, I'm in favor of going with "(baseball player)" instead of just "(baseball)" as the first step of disambiguation. While a bit more wordy, this does seem to comply better with the spirit of WP:NC#Prefer singular nouns.
I'm going to notify anybody who's commented here to review what (hopefully) should be the final draft. If there are no serious problems, we'll have an informal straw poll. Caknuck 04:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- I received notification of the updated version. Looks good to me. Shalom Hello 04:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm having a hard time following this whole thing (because of the many other discussions I am involved in right now) but my only point is this: [[Ralph Wiggum (baseball player)]] should always be used instead of [[Ralph Wiggum (baseball)]] as we are talking about people and not the sport of baseball. Does that make sense? I'll put a watch on so as to keep this discussion centralized (as best as i can)//Tecmobowl 11:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Normally I'd agree with you here, Tecmo. But the disambiguation guidelines state to go with the more simple title. (If there is a choice between disambiguating with a generic class or with a context, choose whichever is simpler. Use the same disambiguating phrase for other topics within the same context. For example, "(mythology)" rather than "(mythological figure)".) Consensus seems to weigh more heavily with "...(baseball)" as opposed to "...(baseball player)", so that's where we'll go. Caknuck 15:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Ahh...that's a good point. Looks good to me then. //Tecmobowl 15:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
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- The updated version is unclear to me. #1 says "the baseball player be disambiguated (if less notable than the subject of the other article) using "(baseball player)" in the article name. Example: Lee Smith (baseball)" But the Lee Smith article just uses baseball, not baseball player. From the above (and previous) discussion, shouldn't "(baseball player)" be changed to just "(baseball)" in #1?--Kathy A. 16:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Ack! Fixed it. It now correctly reads ...using "(baseball)". Thanks for catching that. Caknuck 18:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- I think it looks good because I'm not finding a lot of ways to create loopholes in the rules. Since I'm apparently responsible for adding league disambiguations to the list, I want to clarify something: Does this only apply to leagues outside the American and National leagues or does it include them too? And does the player ONLY have to play in a certain league to get such a disambiguation? For example, if there are two players with the same name, and one of them spent most of his time in the National Association and then joined the National League while the other played in neither of those leagues, do you list the player as National Association baseball player or do we find other ways of disambiguating? In all honesty, I've lost my zeal and vigor to care more about this, but I hope it all works out. -- Transaspie 03:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- (It is a bit of a beatdown, isn't it? But I guess that's why policy is so damned hard to change around here.) I've added the word "predominantly" to the league section. Common sense should prevail here, as well with using "American League baseball player" or "National League baseball player". If that's the best way to do it, then do it. Caknuck 06:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- (Yeah, it is a bit of a beatdown.) Alright, that's makes sense. Since we can use AL and NL, I want to point out one example that could've completely destroyed the conventions: Jeff Robinson and Jeff Robinson. Both are baseball players...both are pitchers...the team disambiguation can't be used because the first Jeff Robinson (Jeff D.) didn't play for one team predominantly because he primarily split time with two teams, one of which also featured the second Jeff Robinson (Jeff M.) at one point. They come dangerously close to even having the same birth year. Since I never want to resort to birth year, I will ask...since Jeff D. Robinson played mostly in the National League and Jeff M. Robinson played mostly in the American League, could we use Jeff Robinson (American League baseball) and Jeff Robinson (National League baseball) to differentiate even though both Jeff Robinsons played in both leagues at some point? I know, complex example...but an example nonetheless and it can clarify the league situation. -- Transaspie 14:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, in regards to the two Jeff Robinsons...another question comes to mind. The current disambiguation for them is Jeff Robinson (starting pitcher) (for Jeff M.) and Jeff Robinson (relief pitcher) (for Jeff D.). If two pitchers share a same name but have pre-dominantly pitched in different roles, is (baseball starting pitcher) and (baseball relief pitcher) suitable? This isn't going to crop up much...but the Jeff Robinsons are an example...there are two Steve Klines where this can apply to...a few others, etc. -- Transaspie 15:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC) (As an aside, I might need to create a list of baseball players that will require disambiguations for their article titles just so I can see if other issues crop up...and see if there are any other ways that the rules can be broken.)
- Re: The Slider Family Robinson, I'd consider differentiating between starting and relief pitchers acceptable, as we use the same terminology for the position field in the infoboxes. As with the Frank Thomases, we should make evey effort to avoid middle initials, as the casual WP reader who is familiar with baseball will have a much better chance of matching the player to the article title if we use their position/role. Caknuck 18:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- DEFINITELY avoid initials, even when they are used in boxscores or trading cards. Athletes are simply not referred to with a first name and a middle initial in this day and age. I have only seen one athlete do this in recent years, a football player named John L. Williams, and he probably had other reasons to do this. So we have baseball starting pitcher and baseball relief pitcher, that works. Does this take priority over left-handed baseball pitcher and right-handed baseball pitcher? (This looks better than the current suggestion and still fits the stipulation that it mentions baseball) Other than that, I don't find anything wrong with the rest of the formatting...and I think the only way to find other conflicts is to actually go through a large baseball database and personally find them. -- Transaspie 23:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- Just my two cents... I'd rather see (left-handed baseball pitcher) etc have priority over (baseball starting pitcher). It's unlikely that a pitcher will change his throwing arm during the course of his career, but many pitchers bounce between starting and the bullpen.--Kathy A. 00:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- For active players, that's of course the most advisable course of action. But for retired players, the starter/reliever split is usable. Give me a few hours and I'll find some cases where it can go either way and document them on a /Temp page. -- Transaspie 16:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- When it comes down to it, go with what makes more sense. When we get down to situations like these, keep in mind two things: 1) there's only a few dozen cases where this type of detailed disambiguation is needed and 2) each case is going to be different. With a sport like baseball that typifies the cliché "The more things chage, the more they stay the same", no set of guidelines can be expected to fit every case past, present or future. (Isn't that the beauty of the game though?) If lefty-righty works better than starter-reliever, then go with it. Ideally, we want the article title to be as intuitive as possible. Caknuck 01:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- Just my two cents... I'd rather see (left-handed baseball pitcher) etc have priority over (baseball starting pitcher). It's unlikely that a pitcher will change his throwing arm during the course of his career, but many pitchers bounce between starting and the bullpen.--Kathy A. 00:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- DEFINITELY avoid initials, even when they are used in boxscores or trading cards. Athletes are simply not referred to with a first name and a middle initial in this day and age. I have only seen one athlete do this in recent years, a football player named John L. Williams, and he probably had other reasons to do this. So we have baseball starting pitcher and baseball relief pitcher, that works. Does this take priority over left-handed baseball pitcher and right-handed baseball pitcher? (This looks better than the current suggestion and still fits the stipulation that it mentions baseball) Other than that, I don't find anything wrong with the rest of the formatting...and I think the only way to find other conflicts is to actually go through a large baseball database and personally find them. -- Transaspie 23:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- Re: The Slider Family Robinson, I'd consider differentiating between starting and relief pitchers acceptable, as we use the same terminology for the position field in the infoboxes. As with the Frank Thomases, we should make evey effort to avoid middle initials, as the casual WP reader who is familiar with baseball will have a much better chance of matching the player to the article title if we use their position/role. Caknuck 18:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- (It is a bit of a beatdown, isn't it? But I guess that's why policy is so damned hard to change around here.) I've added the word "predominantly" to the league section. Common sense should prevail here, as well with using "American League baseball player" or "National League baseball player". If that's the best way to do it, then do it. Caknuck 06:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ready for prime-time?
Are these guidelines ready for prime-time? It seems that the discussion has died. The longer we wait, the more Andrew A. Browns and Jason Aaron Hammels we get. Is it necessary to put it before the community at WP:WPBB one last time or may we just go ahead and implement it? I say be bold. --Sanfranman59 20:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ditto. --Fabrictramp 23:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Policy
I'd like to make this official, so I'm restarting discussion on this. Any suggestions, support, criticism, etc. post here. Wizardman 21:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- No objections? Alright, it's an official guideline then. Wizardman 19:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah! About time. :) --Fabrictramp (talk) 14:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
