Talk:Nambiar
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[edit] Ambalavasi nambiars???
Please excuse my ignorance, but I have never heard of and neither have my parents, of pushpaka brahmin nambiars?!? they have heard of lower caste people adopting higher caste titles, like chakala caste people (washermen) naming themselves chakala nairs (washermen warriors!). nambiar as i know of it was the title of a kshatriya caste of feudal lords and warriors, who owned temples, not worked in it! please clear up my misconceptions if i am wrong, because this notion is new to me, unless ambalavasis have borrowed the title of nambiar....since your previous entry refers to these ambalavasis as "panivada" which could be their original name. i asked my father about kunchan nambiar...and he told me that he was an ambalavasi not a nambiar. please explain to me what is happening
220.238.150.169 00:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ambalavasi Nambiar
Until and unless you are not clear about something DONT DELETE the article. If you dont know or heard about Nambiars (associated with Koodiyattam and Chakyar Koothu) try to know about them. Go and refer something about Kerala castes.Nambiar is not the sole caste name of Nair sect. Ambalavasi Nambiars ( Kunchan Nambiar, PK Narayanan Nambiar (MIzhavu maestro) etc well known Nambiars) are uppercaste people in Ambalavasi sect. They are not mingled with Nair Nambiars. And its ridiculuos to say that they had adopted their name from Nair sect. As a matter of fact, Ambalavasi Nambiars are considered (all ambalavasi's) much above Nair Nambiar sect. So dont edit something until and unless you are sure! Sreekanthv 05:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes ive heard people say that before, but i think the feudal power lay in the hands of the nambiars unnithans and varmas (kshatriyas i am talking about here). Ambalavasis were considered 2nd to namboothiris in terms of spiritual level, but unlike namboothiris were not aristocratic...hence the name ambalavasi "people of the temple". i doubt namboothiris married ambalavasis, they may have had concubinage with them as they did with lower nairs. i think that is why nambiars didnt marry ambalavasis and practiced untouchability in the past with them. but nowadays all this is nonsense and people only talk about these things as a matter of pride. forgive me for not knowing that nambiar was also an ambalavasi sect....but as you are telling me not to delete the article...i see you continually crop the section on nayar nambiars...is this intentional to keep the kshatriya nambiar section 2nd after the ambalavasi one...and kept to a minimum at that? i know in the past nambiars unnithans and nayars have been dealt harshly by both brahmins who labelled them shudras...and by foreign invaders like haider ali who ensured that nayar men were immobilised....but all this should be in the past and the section on kshatriya nambiars should not be kept to a minimum considering that they were 2nd to varmas and owned the very temples that ambalavasis worked in! or maybe u are trying to make it in alphabetical order...that doesnt explain why important ambalavasis have been mentioned like kunchan nambiar and not important kshatriya nambiars in the nair section. 220.238.214.147 11:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear man, i am from North not from south, why you are not understanding that there are
Hello friend, I am not telling that Ambalavasi Nambiars are to be put in first place not the Nair Nambiars, infact, i only written the starting sentence in which first i refer to nair nambiar and only next is relatively small ambalavasi nambiar. i too agree all these information are irrelevent in todays context. For your information let me tell you somethings, dear man, in old system Ambalavasi nambiars were used to have untouchability towards Nair Nambiars. Its a matter of fact that even today ambalavasi nambiars, which is a very small community, didnt marry with other Ambalavasi community or Nair nambiars! I think as you are from northern malabar and you dont know about Ambalavasi Nambiar ( or Mizhavu nambiar or Chakyar nambiar).And one important thing, all unnis, nair nambiars, rajah etc all considered lower to nambiars and getting a "duty" in temple is prestigious not a "labour" talk, which means , nayanar and nayar nambiars were not allowed inside the temple ( nalampalam) before Khsetra praveshana vilambaram, where as solely Nambiar posses the right to perform in Koothambalam, wewre only Namboothiris and Chakyars were allowed. Khsatriya people did guarded temple not own them. Please ask anyone about Kottiyur temple and the posution there enjoyed by Chakyar-Nambiar.I rev some thing really absurd like "nagavansi" etc.. Sreekanthv 12:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi sreekanthv....hmmmm i see what you are saying....are you from south kerala? i have heard that ambalavasis are venerated in south kerala....holding an important position....this may be possibly due to the fact that nair is a wide caste and many nair subcastes are in fact lower in social stature to nambiars unnithans and kurups. i know for a fact in north kerala namboothiris are less likely to marry ambalavasis than nambiars....the ambalavasis of north kerala are mainly drummers and warriers who are considered to be lower than nambiars....and they rarely married them....this was because of the fact that namboothiris and nambiars were aristocratic who i know for certain, owned the temples (perhaps nairs of the south were protectors). it is important to make the distinction between "nairs" of the south and "nambairs" of the north. in the south nairs included shop owners merchants royal guards and agriculturalists not to mention varmas who fell in the "nair" category just as nambiars did. 58.105.5.223 08:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear man, i from North. i dont know why you are not understanding thje fact that ( eventhough all these things are rubbish and shud not be written) Ambalavasi's are considered higher than Nairs-Nambiars? I really think you DONT know about Chakyar nambiars thats why you are matching them with the drummers 'marars'-which i agree is a part of nair caste. I must tell you that, old times namboothiris had sambanthams(~marriage) with a lot of nair families ( in fact they were used to be like that ) but that doesnt mean nairs are next to namboothiris. In many cases they had another wifes also. Let me tell you a fact, i personally know a lot of Nambiars (ambalavasi) and they nevr marries with other ambalavasis like pisharody, sharody, unni, nambisan, moosathu then no question arises about nair nambiar - nair which were considered lower to ambalavasis. all these things are irrelevent, so why people are interested in these kind of lunatic things i dont know, so write something about the peiople not about thithing is greater than that, its absolutely rubbish. i request you to go through any standard work on caste system in kerala and not write something that is applicable to a local area. You go to any maha khsetra of North, for example to Taliparamba Rajarajeswara temple ( where koothambalam is there) or kottiyur or katathanattu kavu and enquire about Chakyar Nambiars. i sincerely suggest you goto any other temple like irinjalakkuda koodal manikyam, triprayar, guruvayur, thrisur vadakkunnathan temple etc. you will raelise what i am telling. its your ignorence that these people are below nair nambiars. Sreekanthv 08:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
my good man! the water is being muddied! Let me first clarify some points: i personally know a lot of Nambiars (ambalavasi) and they nevr marries with other ambalavasis like pisharody, sharody, unni, nambisan, moosathu then no question arises about nair nambiar - nair which were considered lower to ambalavasis...that is what you said...firstly...i believe that moosathu wore a poonul so they had a higher ambalavasi status, i know of nambisans who wear the poonul...they traditionally served as accountants for the nambiars in managing their wealth....secondly...nambiars do not marry nairs either i hope you realise...a product of and egoistic belief that nambiars are superior to nairs. as i have mentioned before...nairs covered a very broad range of professions and indeed many of the nair subcastes barring unnithans and varmas would fall below nambiars, kurups and the like! traditionally the "nayars" of the south were footsoldiers and guards whereas the kurups nambiars and unnithans were seen as "higher" nayars who were feudal lords and aristocratic samantha kshatriyas (nairs of the south barring unnithans however would fall into the category of shudra/kshatriya/vaishya since they could be labourers businessmen or fighters). however just like varmas, nambiars and unnithans are associated with the generic nair subcaste. next you will be telling me that ambalavasis are higher in the social order than varmas! from a spiritual context in the past...the job of ambalavasis were prized....and they were respected and housed and cared for by namboothiris or the nambiars in charge of the temple. however from an aristocratic, feudal viewpoint, the ambalavasis were up until the last hundred years virtually penniless, as they lived simple lives dedicated to temple duties...often more devout than the actual namboothiris, among whom the younger brothers were supposed to remain chaste but had sambandhams! namboothiris were aristocratic brahmins and their lifestyle (with large estates and properties) bordered on being almost kshatriya-like in nature. it cannot be denied however that the samantha kshatriya nambiars (or as you choose to refer to them as "nair" nambiars) along with the namboothiri brahmins of the north and the varmas owned the majority if not all the land and wealth of the malabar. so in a social context, the kshatriya nambiars were more prominent and had a much greater influence on social life than the apolitical and devout ambalavasis. once again what the case was in the past makes no difference to the future...just so long as you realise the social stature of kshatriya nambiars in the past with ambalavasi nambiars. 220.238.147.170 11:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NONSENSE
What is this thing about menons and nambiars being of different racial origin? no idea abt nambiars but menon is a sthanaperu...it is the highest nair title derived from menavan or melevan meaning upper officer or scribe....besides i am an unnithan and as the article for unnithans rigtly states, unnithans are considered smanathans only because of their descent from royal palaces like thampis..yes like nambiars they also dodnot touch or marry ambalavasis either and neither do they marry nairs like menons, pillais etc...
but i have absolute belief that unnithans and valiathans are not of aryan origin or anything as also the nambiars...that is just nonsense....give me some historical evidence to prove that nambiars came from outside....we south keralaites always learnt that nambiars were special soldiers of namboodiris and hence they attained a status above nairs...manu
Hello! Please sign your comments! I would like to ask what exactly are samantha kshatriyas?220.238.147.170 10:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
samanthans or samantha kshatriyas are those nair communities who have a position above ambalavasis and are descended from royal houses,,eg thampis, descended from kings...unnithan and valiathan...descended from other thampurans like brothers of the king etc....as per the travancore state manual samanthans are the castes sprung through the union of 'kshatriyas' and nair ladies...manu
OK....so what exactly do the terms "samantha" and "kiriyathil" mean? 220.238.147.170 08:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
as i said, samanthans are children of royalty and noble nairs.......kiriyathil nairs which i believe contains the menons, kurups and nambiars and is not found in south kerala...in short this term is applicable only in malabar....Kiriyathil Nairs are defined in old books as those who have the right to cook food for brahmins...cooking for brahmins was considered a grt thing....ofcourse it doesnt mean they were cooks...it just implies that they were such pure nairs that namboodiris cud accept food from them Manu
[edit] Aryan lineage?
"...On the west coast there are a few curious distinctions that indicate, apparently, difference in racial origin. The first of these instances is that of the Nair, the military caste of Malabar. Their traditions point to the north as their native land; they are light in colour, in very great contrast to the rest of the castes of the tract, have retained the custom of polyandry, with a good deal of serpent worship. It appears that they advanced upon their present tract by way of the coast higher up, but how they got there does not appear. As with the Arya, they found a dark race in possession and enslaved them on their estates, where they labour to the present day. In the same tract, too, there is a class of Bráhmans, the Nambudiri, of remarkable fairness of complexion, and noted for their rigid ceremonial puritanism. Then, again, in the track of the Nair's alleged progress, we find a peculiar caste of Brahmans, partly occupied in the cultivation of spices and betel nut, but settled mostly above the Gháts, and not therefore so well sheltered from foreign influences as the Nair, who sought the coast. These Havig or Haiga Bráhmans show their connection with the Túlu country in their speech, and, like the Nairs, attribute to their caste a serpent origin in Rohilkhand, a statement borne out by their title. Between these we have a class of female temple servants of an equally light complexion amidst a universally dark population.."( Jervoise Athelstane Baines , ( 1893 ), General report on the Census of India, 1891 , London , Her Majesty's Stationery Office , p. 184) ↑
this doesnt say aryan...this says 'like the aryans'....i view this more in support of the Naga theory...Nagas are anyways Dravidians and there are historical references of such people called Nueri migrating from the Greek regions to India and then fleeing further south. Manu
Kindly get all this unhistoric, evidence less and hapless story of nambiars being kshatriyas of indo aryan origin who migrated with namboodiris etc...nambiars were considered samanthans as initially it was their 'holy' duty to protect namboodiris...thts all - Bhargav
[edit] Greek Connection
i too agree Mr.Bhargav, these people are telling some things about our history on the basis of some foreign authers1 Its amazing to see that eventhough the Aryan Invasion Theory is proved to be wrong ( it was supported by British to degrade our culture and Self respect) peole from our own place saying absurd things like Greek connection etc... Really wierd!!!
Well whatever, in that case all the nairs can say they are kshatriyas...coz so many books say they came from north and were nagas (keralolpathi says too) etc....when we talk about castes, we talk about what it meant at that time ,,,,ie what the brahmins, the makers, thought - bhargav
[edit] Changes
I have made two changes to the article:
1. Moved Nambiar (Kshatriya) to Nambiar (Nair subcaste). 2. Removed POV and rewritten a lot of (what is now) Nambiar (Nair subcaste). --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)
[edit] Nambiar's as samantha kshatriya?
well according to Manu "samanthans or samantha kshatriyas are those nair communities who have a position above ambalavasis and are descended from royal houses" some or all nambiars are samanthan kshatriyas as the houses of my mother Kalliat and Kodoth (Nambiar houses) both are descended from the Nileshwaram Rajah, Great- Grandpop was the son of the last Rajah, and many Nambiar clans are known from anecdotal evidence to intermarry with royal kshatriyas and no other community, well some houses married brahmins, till the as late as generation x where other nairs were also intermarried with. Also the indo-aryan link is a reasonable possibility simply from the fact that the absence of intermarriage with non-rajah/nambiars for as long as we remember until only my Moms generation (x). Why would they consider themselves superior and not intermarry with other nairs?. My dad is a central keralan menon or pillai (not sure)from north palakkad/kozhikode and the family wasnt pleased at the marriage initially cos he was a lower non-nambiar even though he is related to the samoothiris. Also the phenotypical evidence i've experienced as south/central Keralites tend to be darker and more dravidian looking which ive noticed going as far as Thrissur from Kanhangad which can be seen in the Nairs there as well after all as Nair is only a caste which was assigned. I mean my own family like my dad despite being relatively light skinned is a the poster boy for dravidians whereas my mum looks like a typical punjabi and people in her family exhibit light eyes (rare) and are generally lighter skinned and more north indian looking then dads family. Its possible nambiars accompanied the namboothiris hence the variation or similarity of the name to nambiar and were assigned into the highest nair caste and adopted local traditions and language over time like the namboothiris, and since nambiars have not mixed over many centuries they definately would be genetically different to other nairs who are mixed or composed of different groups. Also nambiars obviously have unique traditions not found in other nair communties and nambiars obviously came down the coast whereas central/south keralan nairs probably migrated from Tamil Nadu from the east. 58.107.19.201 16:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
