Talk:Nachman of Breslov
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[edit] Inaccuracy and corrections
Rooster613 07:01, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)There is a gross inaccuracy in this article, which I shall correct after writing these notes here. Rebbe Nachman did not believe that "there is only one Tzaddik" in every generation. This would contradict his claim that every person could achieve the same level as he did, i.e. become a Tzaddik. Nathan of Nemirov wrote in Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom: "The Rebbe (i.e., Nachman) spoke out very strongly against those who thought that the main reason for a Tzaddik's great attainments was the high level of his soul. He insisted that this was not true, maintaining that it depends completely on good deeds (mitzvot)and effort. He was very specific in emphasizing this. He said, 'Every person can attain the highest level. It depends on nothing but your own free choice... For everything depends upon a multitude of deeds.'" (Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom, lesson #26, on page 29 of the Kaplan English edition.)
What Nachman did believe is that he was the Tzaddik Ha-Dor ("Tzaddik of the generation.") This is the teaching (shared by others besides Breslov) that in every generation there is a certain Tzaddik who could become the Messiah if conditions are right. Otherwise, he lives and dies like any other holy man. Whether or not Nachman thought he was the Messiah is debated. Some are of the opinion that he made this claim in secret writings that he later ordered to be burned when he realized he was not the Messiah. We do know that the Burned Books actually existed, and that his disciples obeyed orders and burned them, but we do not know what they contained. We also know that Reb Nachman said, "My light will burn until the coming of the Messiah," which would be a strange thing to say if he thought he was the Messiah. Breslover Hasidim today do not believe he was the Messiah, but they do believe his light continues to shine through his teachings.
- Please sign your posts at the end, not the beginning.
- You cannot expect a page written by others, especially those uninitiated in Reb Nachman's philosophy, to conform to your view. Please make edits and see. JFW | T@lk 08:20, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about the signing in the wrong place -- I misread the directions for where to put the tildes. And Of course I don't expect everyone to conform to my view, but since I actually am a practicing Breslover Hasid, and I've never heard any Breslover say that Rebbe Nachman was the Messiah, I would at least like the more common Breslov view up there. Go to any official Breslov site -- you will not find any claims that he was the Messiah. If others disagree and re-edit or add other views, so be it. But the sources that the previous writer cited are from the Encyclopedia Judaica (some of which I left there, BTW, although i re-arranged the papragraphs to make the whole thing read more smoothly). The E-Judaica article was written decades ago when academe had a rather anti-Hasidic bias, IMHO. I, on the other hand, am citing actual Breslov sources. Rooster613 10:19, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Official" Breslov sites
Regarding "official sites" -- as stated on the Breslov page, there is no single leader of Breslov and therefore, no single official site. I agree that a distinction should be made between Breslov org sites and useful links to various private pages, but no single site can be THE official one. The "Breslov on the Internet" site is maintained by a Hasid from the Rabbi Odesser group. The "Judaism with Heart" site is the site of the Breslov Research Institute, led by Rabbi Chaim Kramer. I marked BOTH as official sites because both are. This seems the best way to resolve the issue. The portal breslov.com has links to a rango of Breslov organisations, from the World council to Rav Odesser pagesRooster613 13:38, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Book by Green
A worthwhile book to read is "The Tortured Master" by Arthur Green, it discusses at great length the formation and evolution of Rav Nachman's views and beliefs as well as the concept of Tzadik Hador. In reading that above passage from "Rav Nachmans Wisdom" and also learning the concept of Tzadik Hador one could get the impression that there two contradictory teachings but in fact there not. In Rav Nachmans understanding even in a world filled with Righteous jews there would still be the need for that ONE soul who posesses a little more than the rest, as evidenced with Israel in the wilderness the sages comment that this generation was on the highest of levels, enough to recieve the Torah but we still had Moses as our leader who was a step above from the rest (also see Korach's rebellion (Bamidbar:Korach) . Rav Nachman claims everyone could reach his level, but the main word being "could", Rav Nachmans conception (obviously Rav Nachman is not the only one to teach this concept) of the Tzadik Hador was the person who could and DID reach this level, meaning he overcame all his temptations and changed his attributes, which would puts him in a diffrent class. Its as if there was one throne and many princes who were quite capable of leading but one prince triumphed for the throne, the other princes lacked that drive that the one prince had possesed to occupy the throne and become king. So we all have the tools to merit being the Tzadik Hador but something intrinsic within us stops us from being this Tzadik Hador. Also Rav Nachman teaches the concept that the Tzadik Hador has the soul of Moses and the Messiah so there it would seem that in every generation there is ONE soul to go around which prevents us from being that Tzadik Hador, but we might still posses those tools to perfect ourselves and to be Righteous rather than the MOST righteous. One could also postulize that Rav Nachman said this quote before he had realized he was the Tzadik Hador, and just envisioned himself as a righteous person. Personally i dont know when he said this quote so i could be wrong. But i suggest to pick up the book Nafi
I have read Green's book and it is a very good history, but one must keep in mind that he is an academic scholar, not a practicing Breslover, although he does hold a deep respect for Rebbe Nachman. (I met Dr. Green when I lived in Philadelphia many years ago.) But among other things, also remember that he was once the President of the Reconstructionist seminary, and before that he was part of the Conservative movement. He has never claimed to be a Breslover. So I stand by my statement earlier, that I have never heard any Breslovers claim that Rebbe Nachman was the Messiah. As for the Zaddik HaDor having the soul of the Messiah, this idea is not original to Breslov. There is a much older teaching about a secret lamedvavnik (hidden saint) who, in every generation, could potentiallybe the Messiah if the people are ready for him to come. Otherwise, the lamedvavnik remains simply a very righteous person -- and even he does not know his own potential as the Messiah until the moment actually arrives.User:rooster613
[edit] Zaddik HaDor
- BTW, regarding "Zaddik HaDor having the soul of the Messiah" the idea is also in Chabad see the Sicha said on Simchas Torah 5746. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 02:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding Rebbe Nachman's claim that everyone could achieve the same level as he, I think he meant what he said. Of course there could be only one Zaddik HaDor at any given time, and technically that would be a little higher than any other righteous person, but I don't think this was his main point. I think he meant to counteract the idea, held by some other Hasidic groups, that a Rebbe is born a Rebbe, something like a Hindu avatar who is a perfect saint from birth, and that this is a level nobody but a born Rebbe can reach. Others thought he had inherited his righteousness because he was the great-grandson of the Baal Shem Tov. Rebbe Nachman was stressing that everything depends on our own deeds, not our yichus (family background) or station at birth. User:rooster613
[edit] Na Nach Nachma Nachman Me'uman
Can anyone talk about the significance of this popular phrase? or is that beyond the scope of Nachman himself? SF2K1
I have it on my "To do" list to create a page on this, hopefully soon. It should be more properly discussed (or linked to) on the Breslov page, rather than Rabbi Nachman of Breslov. Although it is based on his name, he himself did not use it, and it was not known until the early 20th century. It is really a kabbalistic mantra used by the followers of the late Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser and does not date to Nachman himself. It is not universally used by all Breslovers, either. Rabbi Odesser's followers are a sub-group within the Breslov movement. Rooster613
The mantra of Na Nach Nachma Nachman Me'uman was what some people thought to be a joke on Rav Odesser by some of his yeshiva students at the end of his life where he was unfortunately very senile, the students put a handwritten letter claiming it was heaven and that the author of the letter was Rav Nachman trying to communicate with Rav Odesser and within the letter it mentions this mantra as a segulah (charm) for the Mashiach, sadly in israel there is now a division within Breslov of Na Nachers and Breslovers, those who believe in the "letter from heaven" and those who are against it. It could be worth mentioning since its a well known symbol nowadays in Breslov and is seemingly spray painted everywhere in Israel. Nafi
Actually, the document with the mantra was NOT found at the "end of his life when he was senile," it found in 1922, when he was 17 years old, and was his mantra for all the years of his life. However, it did not become popularized in Israel until the millennium fervor before the year 2000, when everybody and anybody on the planet was digging messianic prophecies. See the Na Nach Nachma page I created recently, for the story of "the letter from heaven," based on an account by Rav Odesser himself. I myself do not use this mantra, I use "Ribbono shel Olam" which was Rebbe Nachman's mantra. But others do use it, and it is a controversy was to whether it is authentic or not. Some Breslovers believe it is the words of Rebbe Nachman, some do not. For this reason, I included a section on controversies on the page. BTW, It is not Wiki NPOV to call something "a sick practical joke." Only SOME people CLAIM it was a practical joke. Others believe it was a miracle. User: rooster613
In a different talk page i recognized my error, but i did find another site which says he was 34 and not 17, but again i was wrong about him being in his old age. if anyone has been to the old city in the rova theres a guy called the 'n na nach guy" who all he says is this mantra.Nafi
My source for Reb Odesser being 17 years old is a booklet called "The Letter from Heaven" which has a firsthand account written by Reb Odesser himself. (I this bok as a ref. on the Na Nach Nachma page.) He opens the account with "In the year 5682 (1922) on the Seventeenth of Tammuz, I felt terrible weakness..." (p. 17) He goes on to describe how he broke the fast, felt depressed, found the letter, etc. Since this is his own account of what happened, I think we have to accept that he was 17 and not 34 or elderly as his detractors claim. (There seems to be a discrepancy about his birth date -- some sources say 1905, which would fit with the 1922 date above. Others say 1888, which makes him 34. A mystery unsolved as yet.)
Whether or not it was a "joke" depends on whose opinion you listen to. The jury is out on this with me, although I lean toward the opinion that the note was something written by Rebbe Nachman years ago, when he visited Tiberias, as we know he did on his pilgrimage. Perhaps he slipped it into an old book to be found in the future -- as a sort of time capsule? Stranger things have happened. But if it was a forgery, then I wonder about the following points:
- How did the jokester know Reb Odesser had broken the fast that day? According to his own account, he broke the fast in the morning before walking to the mikveh and then to the yeshiva where he found the note. Even if he did say something about breaking the fast, when would the jokester have had time to write the note and put it in his room?
- How did the jokester put into his head "a powerful thought... as though someone had entered my head and my mind" (Odesser's words) telling him to go to his room? If it was someone playing a joke by telling him to go to his room, why did he experience it as being in his mind?
- How was Reb Odesser guided to EXACTLY the right book to find it? In his account, he describes walking to the bookshelf and taking a "certain book" down "as the thought had said to me." He did not thumb through multiple books before finding it accidentally, as would be the case if someone wrote it and hid it in one of his books for him to randomly find. Also, he claimed the bookcase was locked and he had the only key. So how did the jokester get in?
- If it was written by a fellow student, then he must have been intimately familiar with Rebbe Nachman's writings, as well as kabbalah, to come up with this idea. Since most of the people at the shul where Reb Odesser davened at the time were anti-Breslov, why would they have "wasted" their time reading the details of Rabeynu's writings to find such an obscure ref to a four-fold song of redemption?
Frankly, I fail to see how this defames Reb Odesser when he himself told the story and taught the mantra? I am not in favor of the graffiti artists who spray it all over the place, but that is a different issue. Rebbe Nachman himself said there is holiness in reciting the names of Zadikkim. So what is wrong with those who choose to use this mantra, regardless of the origin? user:rooster613
dear Rooster613 i think the biggest proof to the validity of this "letter from heaven" especially the view that he was 17 at the time, is that his children who i persoally know are not believers in the petek, and even if he was 17 at the time wouldnt his kids be raised into believing it. While it's true that the progeny does not always follow in the footsteps of their elders (R' Shach, R Yonasan Eibeshitz, etc...) these kids remain shomer torah u'mitzvot, still active in the normative Breslov movement and should concievably follow their illustrious father's petek-but they dont. number two that fact that your getting this from a book called "the letter from heaven" doesnt exactly ring loud with an unbiased opinion. and three the book was not some obscure book in the corner of the beis medrash, it was his gemara, which im pretty certain Rav Odesser did use every single day considering his stature. The truth is all this arguing is for naught, because considering where the na nach movement is now, i expect it to be completely dissipated within a decade or so.
- It's interesting to note that the "letter from heaven" was compared against some Ketav Yad that one of Rebbi Nachman's decendants (currently living in Tsfat) has, and the handwriting does not match.
[edit] Not all Breslovers are Haredim
Regarding the statement in the Sabbetean section that Breslov is considered part of Haredi Judaism: In Israel and Brooklyn that is mostly true. However, in other areas where there are fewer Jews, Breslovers can be found in Modern Orthodox synagogues. There are also Breslovers among the "Shlomo people" who, although they are Orthodox, are not Haredi. Some Breslovers (myself included) feel that Rebbe Nachman's instructions to follow "Whatever is in the Shulchan Arukh" does not necessarily require a Haredi lifestyle. However, it does imply that one should be Orthodox.Rooster613
[edit] Rename the page as "Nachman of Breslov"??
Shouldn't this page be re-named "Nachman of Breslov", since "Breslov" is the more common spelling? I think the "Breslav" spelling is a carryover form when this page was an excerpt from the old Encyclopedia Judaica. I am reluctant to make the change myself because I don't know how to do disambiguations yet, and I don't want to screw up other links. Still, it sohuld be "Breslov," I think... User:Rooster613
- "Breslov" gets 34,000 google hits while "Breslav" only gets 11,000. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 02:22, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
- Also Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) is spelles with an "o"
Yes, I know that Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) is spelled with a O, but since this page is about the Rebbe of Breslov, shouldn't it also be spelled with an O for consistency, instead of with a A? Since "Breslov" gets over 3 times as many hits as "Breslav" it seems the page title should use the more commonly-accepted O spelling, nu? Also, BTW, there is a group in Israel that transliterates it as "Breslev" with an E in their pubs -- if that spelling is not already in the redirect, it should be added. Or are we leaving "Breslav" so those 11,000 Google searchers who use that spelling can find it? User:Rooster613
- Wikipedia:Redirect. JFW | T@lk 22:44, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
- Done. Page now uses "Breslov" name. IZAK 05:00, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
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- OK, I may be stirring up a can of worms - but it is NOT Breslov but Bratslav. If Rabbi Nachman of Bratslav is the choice of Encyclopedia Judaica, certainly a respectable enough source, then it should be Bratslav. In fact, there is no entry at all for a place called Breslov.--Gilabrand 15:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Indeed it is Bratslav. But they have decided to call themselves Breslov (don't ask why) and that is now the common usage. --Redaktor 22:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Nachman of Breslov on wife and husband relations
Article needs more information about Breslov views related with sexual questions. Here are only mentioned danger of masturbation.
- What sexual questions do you have? As Breslov is part of mainstream Orthodox Judaism, its Hasidim subscribe to all the laws about sexuality in the Shulchan Aruch, including: no premarital sex, sex only within marriage, no adultery, etc. Rebbe Nachman only highlighted some specific sexual aberrations—which are also sins—that damage a person's soul. If that is not clear in the article, I could change that. Yoninah 14:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Didn't he author a bunch of parables/fairy tales?
You should add some discussion of them in the article.
- Look under sub-section: "Published works." The 13 parables and fragments of stories were published as "Sippurei Maasiyot" ("Rabbi Nachman's Stories"). Although these stories have deep and significant meaning, they are not the backbone of Rebbe Nachman's teachings, so the article details his major teachings in greater depth. Perhaps you would like to see a separate Wikipedia article on the "Sippurei Maasiyot"? Yoninah 21:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Breslov vs. Bratslav
The town is actually known as Bratslav, so Rebbe Nachman of Bratslav is correct English name. Despite the fact that for historical reasons the Hasidic movement is called Breslov, in local Ukrainian Yiddish this town is called Broslev (in literature - Braslav). So the name of the movement and the name of the town, where reb Nakhman lived, sound differently.
[edit] Kol Haolam Kulo
So I'm no Bratslaver, but I'm fond of the song Kol Haolam Kulo, and if the text of the Hebrew song is an accurate reflection of Rebbe Nachman's proverb, then the article's translation should be changed--as it is, it's not really close to the literal meaning. A literal translation of "Kol Haolam Kulo Gesher Tzar Meod / V'haikar Lo L'fached Ra'" would be "The whole world is a very narrow bridge, and the main thing is not to fear evil." Obviously everyone will translate the Hebrew in his or her own way, but the current translation is more of an interpretation than a translation, and should be revised.
-- the words are "Lo L'fached CLAL," don't fear AT ALL, not "Lo L'fached Ra." 138.88.156.103 22:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)Shimshi
[edit] Added paragraph to section on controversies
To indicate greater context of controversy in his time. Mitnagdim versus hasidim. Jews of Haskalah versus Hasidim. --Metzenberg 12:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 哈西德拉比布列斯洛夫的教导
看这个世界
像那独木桥
孤单路一条
寂寞路一条
年轻的人啊
你只往前走
直去莫回头
...
只要心中不忘
不忘念念不遗忘 (不忘念念不啊不遗忘)
无惧勇往直前
勇往直向前
无惧勇往直前
勇往直前直向前 (勇往直前直啊直向前)
不忘念念不忘
向前直向前
http://www.aish.com/shabbatsongs/shabbatsongsdefault/-Kol_Haolam_Kulo-_-_Jewish_Courage.asp http://www.greatjewishmusic.com/Midifiles/Kol%20HaOlam.htm
Kol Ha'olam kulo
Gesher Tsar me'od
Gesher Tsar me'od
Gesher Tsar me'od -
Kol Ha'olam kulo
Gesher Tsar me'od -
Gesher Tsar me'od.
Veha'ikar - veha'ikar
Lo lefached -
lo lefached klal.
Veha'ikar - veha'ikar
lo lefached klal.
