Talk:Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judaism Portal
Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman is part of WikiProject Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Judaism articles.
Project Judaism To-do:
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit]

Yes, I know that mantra is not a Jewish term, it is a Sanskrit or Hindu term, and some Jews object to it on those grounds. However, it has entered the English language, is universally-recognized, and there is a Wiki page on it, So it make sense to use it here.

Also, the reason there are so many saves by me one after the other at the beginning of the page's history is because my toddler grandson is staying here. To avoid having him accidentally delete my work, I save every time I leave the computer tonight. Better safe than sorry <g> User:rooster613

[edit] Hebrew letters

I do not know how to do Hebrew letters in Wiki. If somebody reading this does, then please add them to the section explaining the meaning of the mantra. (Leave the transliterations of the names of the letters, for those who cannot read Hebrew). Thank you! User:rooster613

See User:Jfdwolff/Hebrew. Use the ampersand, then the code as mentioned. Write from left to right - the browser will understand the text direction (e.g. nun first, then chet etc etc). Spaces are as normal. JFW | T@lk 10:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you -- I just did it, looks fine. What I needed was the table of Hebrew letters, which your link provided. Rooster613 14:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] Haskoma from Rav Moshe Feinstein

I presume you meant to write 1984 not 1994 here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na_Nach_Nachma#Controversies unless this was another letter from heaven since Reb Moshe "ascended to the heavenly academy" in 1986) .:-)

  • Yes, it was a typo, should be 1984. Rooster613 14:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] More forgery claims? Got References?

Re: edits by anonymous person User:80.178.15.203 that were reverted to my previous version: This person appears to be a Breslover in opposition to the Na-Nachers. Some of his/her points were possibly valid although not N-POV in style and not backed up by any sources (hence the revert). However, noting the writer's objections, I did modify "popular among Breslover Hasidim" to "popular among some groups of Breslover Hasidim" which should take care of that problem. Regarding forgeries: If indeed somebody claimed the approbation from Feinstein was a forgery, I would be willing to include that opinion under the Feinstein part of Controversies if there is a real reference to cite and not just an anonymous drive-by. Ditto for the same writer's claim that somebody "admitted" to forging the letter in an article in Maariv ten years ago. Who is this "somebody"? If anybody knows the refs. for this article, we could footnote that also. Although we should also note that anybody could claim to have done this to discredit Rabbi Odesser. I'm trying to keep this page N-POV while recognizing that there are controversies. I myself am not a Na-Nacher although I have no real objections to using the mantra, either. Rooster613 14:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

In some mainstream Orthodox circles, the "Na Nach Nachma" is considered somewhat mishuga. Some guys passing out Breslov pamphlets near my school, Yeshiva University, weren't open NightcapNachmaners (people who wear the huge yarmulkes with "Na Nach Nachma"s on them, usually white caps)...they were black-hat, black coat guys. This is considered more authentic by such people. Unfortunately, my source for this isn't a book--but a rabbi, so I can't put in the article, right? I'm new at this.Yodamace1

  • Thank you for your comments, and welcome to Wikipedia. I'm aware of the controversies. However, what "mainstream Orthodox circles" think is not the purpose of the article. After all, mainstream circles have always considered Breslov (even non-Na-Nachers) as a bit meshugga. (Mostly because we go off by ourselves to meditate in the forests... but that's another issue.) Even when he was alive, Rebbe Nachman was criticized for accepting all types of people at his table, including the local meshugganers. <g> Now, regarding this article, the purpose is to explain the history and meaning of the mantra in a factual, neutral way. This is an encyclopedia, not a debate forum. However, we can discuss the issues here in "discussion" and people do read the discussions, so your rabbi's opinion is noted. In reply, I ask: Is this mantra any more meshugga than Lubovitch children shouting "We Want Moschiach Now!" cheers or bumper stickers that ask "Did you put on tefillin today?" (I just made this into 2 paragraphs to sub-divide topics here) Rooster613 01:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] more on the white yarmulkes

As for the white yarmulkes, I have one of those, more as a collector's item, although I have worn it on occasion. (Perhaps I should take a photo and add it to the article.) I have always preferred a large knitted yarmulke that covers my whole head. The Na-Nacher version is actually a modification of a traditional white yarmulke that has been worn for centuries in Jerusalem, which in turn is a modification of the medieval hats with the little ball on top -- hence the tassle. People wear them for group identity -- and is that any different than wearing a Zionist yarmulke that says "Yerushalayim" or some other slogan or, for that matter, one with pictures of cartoon characters like the kids wear nowadays? Breslov does not have a dress code (other than halachic zniut, tzitzit, etc.) so there is no requirement to dress in black like the Mitnagdim/Haredim. After all, if Jews wanted to be really, really authentic, we should all wear long robes, since that is how Abraham and Moses dressed. <g> Rooster613 14:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

Well, I'm not trying to make it a debate forum. And if you're asking about if it's more meshuga the the messianic Lubavitcher belief, that is also considered quite mishuga. I'll quote from the Chabad-Lubavitch page:

Berger asserts that a few Chabad followers hold Schneerson to be God incarnate, and that they worship him as such. Responses from various Jewish spokespeople have been aimed specifically at the last two expressions of messianism. Longtime critic Allan Nadler (2001) and Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller (1998) warn that Chabad has moved its focus from God to Schneerson to the point that they "worship him".

  • Well again, in these cases, there are specific rabbis who have taken public stands and can therefore be quoted. So far all I've seen re: this page is vague urban legends. I did, however, provide a link to a site that takes the stance that the letter was forged. If there are other such refs, either on paper on the Net, I have no objection to referencing them. Rooster613 02:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

So I thought it might be appropriate, sorry if it wasn't...I don't think there's a mention of the 'NachmanNightcap' in the article, you seem to know a lot about it, maybe you should post about it. Yodamace1

As both a Wiki novice and someone only slightly learned in the significance of the phrase, I can't help but wonder if the the "pop culture" aspects of this phraseology should be explained in greater detail. In a recent trip to Israel, I saw the Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman graffiti everywhere (and I've seen it a few times also in the U.S.), as well as on bumper stickers and placards and whatnot. This article seems to indicate that it is insignificant, but it seemed rather pervasive to me... Also, IIRC, there is a reference to the mantra in the Israeli "Bumper Sticker Song" which could be referenced in the article as well.Nolij (talk) 20:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I plan to take a photo of mine and upload it as common domain, but probably not until after Rosh Hashanah. Meanwhile I added a text ref today, which, because my computer timed out and I had to log back in, did not show up with my Rooster613 sig, but the text of that edit is mine. (Apparently the "remember me" option does not work right on my system.) Rooster613 02:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
    • OK, I uploaded the photo as Image:Na-nach-nachma-yarmulke.jpg and that went OK, it's up there -- but for some reason the link to this page does not work.  ??? Rooster613 18:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613
      • Photo file was apparently corrupted en route -- I uploaded it again and it works fine now Rooster613 04:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

You put in your edit that Chareidi disparagingly call such Breslovers NightcapNachmaners. I honestly didn't know that, thought I made it up. I'll stop using the term, sorry about that. Yodamace1

  • I was taking my cue from you <g> But if you are the only one using the term, then the sentence is not authentic, so I removed it. The part you added to the Controversies is fine now -- you are citing the opinion of specific rabbis. Very good addition! This will be my last work here for a while -- tomorrow is erev RoshHashanah... shanah tovah! Rooster613 01:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

Thanks! Shanah tovah! And thanks for the niggun advice. I've been to Kiryas Yoel for a wedding, but that's a bit out of the way...Williamsburg, here I come! Yodamace1

[edit] Book Cover Image

I upladed a scan of the cover of "The Letter from Heaven: Rebbe Nachman's Song" and linked it here. My justification for the fair use of this image is that the book is discussed and referenced on this page. Rooster613 14:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] Revert of Tanchum's edits

I reverted the material added by Tanchum in the Controversies section because it is not NPOV, being very disparaging of the people who use the mantra, essentially calling them inauthentic ignoramuses. This was obviously posted by an anti-mantra person as debunking opinion. This is the deleted text:

The Na Nach Nachma phrase, derives neither from any of the writings in the entire canon of Breslov literature, nor from the traditions of Breslov itself, nor the Bible, Talmud, or code of Jewish Law. For this reason, "Na Nach Nachma" cannot be represented as an authentic expression of Breslov doctrine--precisely because Breslov chassidus is based, like any legitimate Jewish movement, on classical Jewish sources. Hardly everyone within what can be called "mainstream", traditionally Chassidic Breslov communities believes that the "petek ha-geulah" is an authentic writing from Rebbe Nachman. Most treat the subject with passive obliviousness. At this point, "Na-Nach" is more of a rallying cry for Israeli and Sephardic returnees to Judaism, although it has caught on amongst some of the disaffected American youth who come to Jerusalem, or people who are not yet familiar enough with Breslov literature to distinguish between what is authentic and what is not.

The points are already made in the article that the mantra is controversial, that not all Breslovers use it and some actively oppose it, that some claim the note is a forgery, that it does not date to Rebbe Nachman himself nor did he use it, that this is a sub-group and not all of Breslov, etc. -- without the negative polemics of this text. It is not the role of Wikipedia to decide what is or is not "authentic" or "legitimate" in theological controversies, only to present the facts as they are. Like it or not, there is a group of people who call themselves Breslovers who use this mantra, and that must be respected in the text. I myself am neither for nor against the mantra, merely watching this page to try and keep it NPOV... Rooster613 19:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] Regarding rabbi Moshe Feinsteins "approbation"

Rabbi Odessa was a Mishulach; he came to the US to collect Tzedaka. He went to Rabbi Feinstein (who, incidentally, was a non-chassidic rosh yeshiva)and asked him for a "hamlatza" letter that people could be presented with, to help him raise money (this is a standard practice of people collecting tzedahka). he showed the letter to rabbi feinstein while meeting him. Rabbi Feinstein's hamlatza does not imply legitimatacy at all; it was merely a polite "and when he was here he showed me something unique he has in his posession"... Ask any of rabbi Feinsteins sons or Talmidim, they would concur. The legitimacy of the "petek" being from heaven is a bubbehmeiseh.. Ther person that inserted the paper addmitted to doing it before his death.gevaldik! 16:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Again I ask: WHO is/was this mysterious "person who inserted it (the petek)" in the book, if indeed such a thing ever happened? So far, nobody has named a name, it just keeps coming back as hearsay. If there is a real source with a real person taking credit/blame, we can add it to the Controversies, but so far all I see is anti-Odesser urban legend -- in this case, from an unsigned comment by who-knows-who... Rooster613 04:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

just signed my original comment, im still new to wikipedia and i forget someitmes. gevaldik! 16:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The gentleman who wrote it is Yoel Ashkenazi. 79.180.238.123 (talk) 22:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


This article about Na Nach was, in my opinion, written very nicely and objectively. However there are many mistakes and insufficiencies. In truth there really isn't anyone worthy of writing about Na Nach, which is (as clearly stated by Rabbi Yisroel Dov Odesser ZTVK"L) the root of the whole Tora and all of the souls of Israel!
The article states that R' Yisroel was born in a year and later recieved the Petek in years that most accounts differ. This requires extensive research. Bear in mind that the Saba (R' Yisroel) said frequently that he was older than one hundred years. Unfortunately I can't write at great length right now.\
The article refers to Na Nach as a mantra, this is a fallacy which I put most of the blame on the late Rabbi Arye Kaplan ZT"L who not withstanding his saintliness and mesirat nefesh for Israel and the amazing things he did, was not 100% Bresluv, to say the least (if your not Bresluv i.e. Na Nach you'll say, so what, but even you can understand that this will prevent him from fully capturing, portraying, and correctly and accurately giving over the ways, ideology, and wel. of Rabbi Nachman). If I remember correctly, Rabbi A. Kaplan himself writes that possibly his biggest chidush (novelty) was his breakthrough in transalating the hebrew word Kavana, which previously had been concentration, to medidation. This led the RAK z"l to the path he chose of teaching the ways of Jewish meditation and Kabala. The RAK z"l is the one that brands hisbodidus as meditation. At first I felt that writing this was okay for those that get excited by this, and are strengthened and motivated to actually carry out what Rabbi Nachman says. However in truth, this is not a correct interpretation of Hisbodidus, and Na Nach is not a mantra.
A mantra is a word or phrase meant to be repeated over and over. Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman, we should be blessed to say it over and over, but even to say it one time in a lifetime is a mind boggling accomplishment! (It has been said that it is worth coming down to this world for 80 years just to say one time Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman! There is some discussion whether hearing it one time would also be sufficient). Just as it is obvious that Shma Yisroel is not a mantra, even though it is recomended (by unknowledgable people and or Brikers, as opposed to Halacha and Kabala which forbids the recital of Shma repeatedly) to be used as a mantra.
In the same way hisbodidus should not be branded as meditation, which is an excercise to achieve different states of mind. Hisbodidus is nothing more and nothing less than what it's definition conatates, being alone i.e. with G-d. Hisbodidus is also often used to mean personal conversation, musing, and accounting a peson conducts alone, i.e. with G-d. Certainly this can be extended to meditation, but the whole message of Rabbi Nachman is complete simplicity (even though the advocates for meditation may claim that the goal of meditation is to achieve a state of simplicity etc.. Rabbi Nachman's message is of complete simplicity from beginning to end, not having to resort to any methods, systems, and practices). Rabbi Nachman taught everyone how to act on simple truth that they knew in their own hearts.
Regarding the authenticity or better yet the importance of the approbation given by R. Moshe F.. It is very important to point out that even though it is known that R. Moshe went out of his way to help people, never in his whole life did he write anything remotely similar to what he wrote for R. Yisroel. R. Moshe, as the Saba points out, was a Litvak, i.e. someone who puts the study of Gemura on the forfront and will never engage (at least openly) in the study of Kabala. In all the written books of R. Moshe the closest discussion related to Kabala is a response about the proper time to say the prayer Brich Shmay. There is great differences of opinion among the followers of R. Moshe as to whether or not R. Moshe did or did not study Kabala secretly. So it is amazing that apx. 2 years before his passing R. Moshe meets the Saba and writes an approbation stating that the Saba has great knowledge of Kabala! R. Moshe's meeting with the Saba obviously had a tremendous effect on R. Moshe, leading him to pubicly acclaim Kabala. There is much more to write about this but presently I am unable.
Also R. Moshe wrote explicitly that he saw the Petek and it very wonderous! Also there are people living today who were in the room together with R. Moshe and the Saba (R. Moshe also approached the Saba and asked him for his blessing, and R. Moshe called his wife to recieve a blessing from the Saba!), and there are people that can tell over the turn of events that led R. Moshe to ask to be introduced to the Saba (after R. Moshe was shown the Petek he said, this, don't laugh at this, it is very wonderous, and then he asked to meet the person that recieved the Petek, and the meeting was arranged).
Even though Rabbi Nachman never explicitly revealed that his name is the song of simple, double, triple, quadruple, there is an almost explicit reference to this in the beggining of his holy book Likutay Moharan. {It is also interesting to note that the acronym for Rabbi Nachman is RuN, which is the hebrew word for sing, and the title of his holy book Likutay Moharan, the Saba told the kamarner rebbe, is to be pronounce Likutay Meron i.e. a reference to the master of the Zohar (Book Of Splendor, the sourcebook of Kabala) Rabbi Shimon, who is buried in Meron, and as related by the Saba (Israel Saba, hebrew, somewhere around page Run), when Rabbi Nachman visited Rabbi Shimon in Meron, Rabbi Shimon asked him, Meron, Me Rone?, i.e. who's singing, and Rabbi Nachman answered Me Rone? Ani (I) Rabbi Nachman, Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman! (although it is not for certain that Rabbi Nachman revealed Na Nach to Rabbi Shimon then, perhaps the Saba added it)}. There is a poem composed by Rabbi Nachman published there, in the poem Rabbi Nachman spells out his name in the first letters of every line, then proceeds to double them and triple them and then includes the name of his father Simcha (which has a numerical value of Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun). In the introduction to the poem it says that the poem will discuss the song that will arise (an allusion to the song that is simple, double etc., as it is refered to in the Zohar and in Likutay Moharan), and finishes by stating that Rabbi Nachman's name is signed in the poem, double triple quadruple. This is basicly a clear cut exclamation that Rabbi Nachman's name is this holy song which is simple, double, etc..
Also anyone of proper belief and knowledgable in Rabbi Nachman's writings knows that the name of the Tzadik is united in the name of G-d, and know that Rabbi Nachman is THE tzadik, and therefore knows that the song that is alluded to in the Zohar as simple, double, ect. Y, YH, YHV, YHVH, is going to apply to the name of Rabbi Nachman. These two paragraphs are objective proofs and substantation for Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun MayUman, irrigardless of whether or not one believes in the Petek.
Now to say that some prankster, even one with good intentions, merited to chance upon signing Rabbi Nachman's name in such a way is almost as big as a miracle as the actuality that it was in fact written by Rabbi Nachman. There is a general rool that G-d doesn't use unworthy people to be agents of miracles (c.f. the Brisker rav, beginning of Parshas Toldos, that the scoffers wanted to say that Sara became pregnant from King Avimelech, the commentators ask that even still the main miracle was that Sara, who was her whole life barren and now 90 years old, gave birth. The Brisker Rav say that this is the way of scoffers, they'll admit that a great miracle took place, but they will take the credit away from the Tzadik and give it to the Rusha). There are countless other proofs, not to mention that the Saba vouched for it testifying to its authenticity and amazing powers. Also Rabbi Nachman says in Sichot HuRan, it is better to be a foolish person who believes everything, and therefor believe in what he is supposed to, rather than being a wiseman who due to all his analyzation refuses to believe in most things, thus missing out on important beliefs. Na Nach is in no way similar to the Lubavitch falsehood proclaiming their dead rabbi as moshiach, which is a belief borderlying on rejection of basic tenets of Jewish belief and logic which even non Jews are required to heed. Someone opposed to Na Nach at worst can call it dubious or meaningless, or possibly G-d forbid a somewhat disrespectful name calling of a Holy Tzadik, but there is no way to associate it G-d forbid with Kfira, therefore certainly one should heed Rabbi Nachman's words in the Sichot, and believe in Na Nach.
There are presently a few books written about the Petek and Na Nach. First and foremost a composition of the Saba's conversations titled: Yisroel Saba, this is available in Hebrew, English, and French (possibly other languages). Seventy Rectifications of the Petek (this is not a completely accurate book as the author himself states while he records his own 'dimyonot' and upholds certain things which I don't consider to be completely pure to Na Nach). Matzpon Hapetek, a booklet which anlyzed all of history in the light of the Petek. In addition there are various little booklets floating around. The author of these comments, myself, has the makings for a book apx. 90 large pages about Na Nach. The book is meant primarily for someone already very familiar with the common knowledge of Rabbi Nachman his disciples in particularly the Saba. There is a blogspot recently started, and presently containing only one thought, visit it: NaaNaach.blogspot.com. Or email me at NaaNaach@gmail.com.
There is much more to be written, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.88.110 (talk) 22:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Meaning

No meaning explained in the meaning section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.171.180.22 (talk) 17:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

do you have a suggestion on how the article can be improved? Jon513 (talk) 17:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] this is a b-class article

wikipedia is so terrible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.231.76 (talk) 10:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)