Talk:Númenor

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Contents 1 Númenórean v. Númenorean 2 Contradiction 3 Long Life 4 Another "happy coincidence" ? 5 Page title 6 The Ban and the flat world 7 Númenor as Atlantis 8 Consideration for Deletion 9 Corsica

[edit] Númenórean v. Númenorean

Isn't the adjective form Númenórean rather than Númenorean? -Aranel ("Sarah") 16:49, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I looked it up. And yes, it is. (I checked both The Silmarillion for an early perspect and The Peoples of Middle-earth for a later perspective.) Númenórean is the adjective (or the noun referring to a person from Númenor) and Númenor is the noun. -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

Why is this page flagged as contradicting itself? -- betakate18:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

(Long since resolved, as of 22 Dec 2005) Elphion 21:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

because the book says somthing different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warlord zephyr (talk • contribs) 19:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Long Life

I've noticed that there is no mention of the Numenorians having long life.

In the books, I believe the Numernorians lved for hunreds of years, with one king reigning for 400. Argorn, a decendent of the Numenoreans lived to be 210. This section lacks any mention of the Numeorians long life or how they attained it. Was it part of the gift of Numenor?--Eldarone 01:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes it's true. However the kings, as descendants of Elros Peredhil (or having lineage from the original royal house, e.g. the House of Lords of Andunië)have an extra long span of life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.95.42 (talk) 03:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the line of the kings was the line of Earendil (need spell check)who married an elf. She gave birth to elrond and elros. They where given a choice by the valar, to become mortal or remain elf-kind. Elrond chose to be elf kind but elros chose to be mortal and as such a longer life span is given to him.--a mind without purpose will walk in dark places 20:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warlord zephyr (talk • contribs)

[edit] Another "happy coincidence" ?

Just like Atalantë and Atlantis are similar, I think it worthy of mention that Númenor bears strong similarity to Latin numina and English word numinous. The story of Númenor -- a divinely created island of humanity, once glorious and now fallen -- is just the kind of numinous myth that Tolkien and C. S. Lewis would call "true myth." I'm sure I'm not the first person who noticed this; does anyone know a reference within "the Tolkien community" to point up this IMHO important fact? LandruBek 14:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The Atlantis connection was deliberate... Tolkien specifically stated it several times. I don't recall having heard the 'numina' theory before, but note that 'númen' means 'west' in Quenya. I'd have to check, but I believe that meaning of the root predates it's use in 'Númenor'. --CBDunkerson 14:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page title

the page title is "Númenore"; there is, however, no redirect for "Numenore". So when i type in "Numenore" i get nothing. the name of the page should either be changed or there should be a redirect for "Numenore" sorry to disrupt your thoughtfull discussion w/ something this trivial.

Done Bryan 19:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Ban and the flat world

If the world was flat during the time of Numenor, how far exactly would one have to sail until one would lose sight of anything? Wouldn't it have been possible to see as far from Numenor as one's eyesight allowed, maybe even up to Aman and Middle Earth, weather permitting and given sufficient visual acuity? What then are the exact terms of the Ban?

-- Thomas 15:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing in the available texts about how far east one might be able to see, but it's said in Appendix A of RotK that the keen-eyed could see the the tower of the havens on Tol Eressëa from the Meneltarma on Númenor. It is nowhere said for what cause one could see farther from a height on a flat earth, but I suppose we could guess that the thickness of the air at lower elevations, density of mist, spray, and water vapor upon the sea, have something to do with it. The difficulty of resolving very distant objects place practical limits on how far one could see regardless of elevation. This must have been important, since the Ban specifically forbade the Númenoreans from sailing so far west that they could no longer make out their own shores, or to attempt to set foot on the Undying Lands. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, indeed, here's a quote from the Silmarilion, p. 313: "[...] only the keenest eyes among them [could see Avallónë] from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go." It would seem that either visibility at sea level is really bad or that the Meneltarma is really high. I'm finding this a somewhat weak point, though: surely there must be some very keen-eyed individuals or telescopy technology that would allow the Numenorians to have a quite good view of either the foreign or their own shores. -- Thomas 00:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think visibility at sea level is never great. Not as good as you get at high elevations in dry, dust-free conditions anyway. And remember there are the Enchanted Isles between Númenor and Eressëa, where it was sufficiently misty that it would have almost certainly have obscured the view.

But it probably was a weak point. I don't know that Tolkien ever thought completely through the consequences of a flat earth. He had conceived it mythologically, and only began to worry about practical consequences later when he decided that he was writing (at least partly) a feigned history instead -- and at that point he considered abandoning the idea of a historical flat earth entirely. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

But I think that http://www.insaneflash.com/show.php?id=288 is better.--200.68.82.189 05:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Tolkien never thought out that you could see any distance over ocean (barring atmospheric interference) on a flat earth. Vultur (talk) 03:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Númenor as Atlantis

Anybody else think all those bullets in the footnote (supporting the notion that Númenor is Atlantis) make for just a bit of over-kill? That information is easily available through the index of the Letters; why reproduce it all here? A much shorter note should suffice. Elphion 19:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Rather than simply taking silence for consent, let me be specific: unless someone objects, I propose to replace the Atlantis notes with a much shorter one. Elphion 17:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Elphion 12:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consideration for Deletion

I don't understand how this article is any less notable then any of the other dozens of articles concerning Tolkienesque mythology. It is well written, clear, and to the point. Númenor is clearly an independent subject of notable value within a greater mythology, and deserving of it's own article page. Please clarify, whoever is unhappy with it, what exactly needs to be expanded or changed. Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I still fail to see how there is a lack of notability- a seperate land within Middle Earth, containing it's own very particular characteristics and history which are not explained in such detail in any other article- nor should that history be explained in any detail elsewhere, as anywhere other then in an article concerning Númenor specificly, such information would lack relevance. Furthermore, this article has been rated as "high-importance" on the importance scale for Wikiproject: Middle Earth Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

In undoing my removal of the template, Wikipedian YLSS wrote "template does not entail immediate deletion, it encourages to add sources." However, there are other templates which encourage users to add sources, without threatening deletion of the article if they do not. YLSS is a reputable Wikipedia user who has made a significant number of constructive contributions to the Wikipedia project. As such, I will trust that he/she has a reason for using the template that he/she did. I encourage YLSS to explain why he/she feels that another template which encourages users to add sources without threatening deletion would not be more appropriate for this article. Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Um, this a result of a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth (a long story), during which it has been decided that all Middle-earth related articles should reference several third-party sources (that is, anything other than JRRT's and CJRT's books). This is indeed what Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) says, so everything is according to guidelines. Incidentally, I'm working on this article at the moment (in sandbox), but I still will only be able to reference UT & HoMe; so you're welcome to add other sources, see WP:Me S#References for suggestions. Súrendil (talk) 19:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who knows anything about Tolkien fiction should know that Númenor was the principle "actor" on the political stage of the entire Second Age of Middle-earth, through which Sauron tried to enslave the world to the worship of Melkor (Morgoth), along with other goals of his. The event of its obliteration by sinking into the sea provides the backdrop for every single decision made by the future Dunedain, of which Aragorn is the last mentioned, in the "epilogue" work, The Lord of the Rings. Regarding notability, I would place it as the third most important subject of the entire legendarium as a whole. But, what do I know, eh? --Chr.K. (talk) 05:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Just see WT:Me#Notability of articles and sections below. Súrendil (talk) 10:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The article is pretty blatant at the end of the opening summary about the major position Númenor/the Akallabeth occupies in Middle-earth history. Is desire to source that reality the only issue here? --Chr.K. (talk) 21:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Numenor/Akallabêth is a central part of Tolkien's legendarum. It is of central importance, and it would be difficult to come up with any Tolkien-related article that is more notable. I take the liberty of replacing the notability tag with a merge tag, since merging with Akallabêth is arguable. There is lots of third party literature (Tolkien studies, e.g. J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia) that can be cited. Hell, every discussion of Tolkien's work will dedicate sizeable portions to it. dab (𒁳) 20:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Corsica

I note with amusement that Corsica(?) shows up as a five-pointed star just next to the pillars of Hercules in the Anglo-Saxon Cotton Map (ca. AD 1000). dab (𒁳) 20:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)