Talk:Myth of the Flat Earth

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[edit] "Historical Illusion" reference invalid

This article, the "Flat Earth" article, and many other websites assert that this myth "has been listed by the Historical Society of Britain as No. 1 in its compendium of the ten most common historical illusions". Every time this assertion is made, the source given is Jeffery B. Russell's book. I was unable to find the true original source after a fair amount of searching so I contacted Dr. Russell directly. He responded that a full citation is not given in his book because he was unable to find the original article which he believes originates from a pamphlet between around 1962 and 1965 put out by the "Historical Society". Many Google searches on many, many variations of historical societies, historical illusions, compendiums, etc yielded no leads. I do not see how Russell's book can be called a reliable source for this assertion. I have therefore removed the assertion that this myth was listed as number 1 on a Historical Society compendium of historical illusions. Bjp716 (talk) 03:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's appropriate to write off a fragment of a source as unreliable and unquotable, purely on the basis of a single editor's private correspondence with its author. --McGeddon (talk) 12:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Russell may be referring to one or other of two pamphlets, Common errors in history and Common errors in history (second series), published by the Historical Association (not "Society") of Great Britain in 1945 and 1947 respectively. The Australian National Library has copies, which I will try and get a look at tomorrow. The US Library of Congress also has copies.

Russell's writings pose a bit of a problem. I have come across many instances where, in my opinion, he has interpreted his sources far from accurately, and one of these (concerning Washington Irving's The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus) has in fact affected this article. Judged by the WP criteria for reliable sources, however, anything Russell writes on the Flat Earth Myth would appear to have impeccable credentials, so it's going to be difficult to challenge it without the support of another good secondary source.
Anyone interested in comparing what Irving actually wrote about the council of Salamanca with Russell's description of it (as quoted in the article) can find a copy of Irving's account starting here.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 08:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It looks like the History Association's 1945 pamphlet is probably could well have been the reference Russell had in mind. He just got a few of the details wrong. However, it differs in several ways from the description he gives: It was published in 1945 (not between around 1962 and 1965), by the Historical Association (not the Historical Society of Britain) and listed the flat earth myth as the second out of 20 (not the first out of 10). At any rate, since this pamphlet is at least traceable, I have reinstated a corrected version of the original note with a citation to this pamphlet.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 06:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Nice work! Is the text available online somewhere or did you have to go to a library? Bjp716 (talk) 23:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I couldn't find any details about the pamphlet on-line, except those in the two library catalogues I cited. I consulted the Australian National Library's copy and took a photocopy of it (24 pages). I also tried poking around the Historical Association's website without finding anything relevant.
I have withdrawn my suggestion that Russell's description of the pamphlet was inaccurate. The Historical Association apparently updates some of its older pamphlets occasionally, and it could well have done so with its Common Errors in History (although I have no evidence for that, other than Russell's description itself). I did try browsing through the Australian National Library's collection of the Historical Association's later pamphlets without finding anything else relevant. But since the National Library's collection is incomplete, that doesn't mean very much.
It might be worth contacting the Historical Association itself to see if they can provide any further information.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 00:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "First Appearance" in 19th Century is incorrect

The article as written is wholly incorrect. Many Medieval artists depicted the earth as flat; I have included a link to one such depiction (by Bosch) as reference.

FellGleaming (talk) 22:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Bosch is a renaissance artist and does not represent medieval views. The extensive deletion of well-supported material is in error; see the extensive discussion of medieval belief in a spherical earth at Flat Earth. I am reverting your changes. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 00:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Bosch painted this in 1504, the Middle Ages end in 1517 (Luther's Theses). More importantly, the theologians mentioned are from the 4th-7th Century. These **are** clearly and indisputably Medieval views. I am reverting your edits. FellGleaming (talk) 01:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boniface and Cosmas

I have restored the {{fact}} template on the claim that Saint Boniface "expressed firm belief in a flat earth" and a {{Dubious}} template on the use of Cosmas Indicopleustes in a sentence claiming to provide a list of "theologians".

The only credible sources I have seen on the dispute between Boniface and Vergilius both say that the only extant primary source about it is a letter of Pope St. Zachary's to Boniface, which, though not at all clear on the precise nature of the dispute, suggests that it was about the existence of antipodean "worlds" rather than the sphericity of the earth.

Cosmas Indicopleustes seems to have been a rather obscure Egyptian monk who is known for only a single work, Christian Topography, which would hardly be sufficient for him to merit the title of "theologian". As far as I can tell, that characterisation of him is inaccurate, so unless a decent source can be provided to support it, I believe he should be removed from the list of flat-earth "theologians" (or replaced by a more appropriate personage—Athanasius or Lactantius would do). —David Wilson (talk · cont) 16:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This online source confirms that not only did Boniface believe in a flat earth, but it was official doctrine of the Church at the time. "Later on, St. Boniface accused Vergilius of teaching a doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth, which was "contrary to the Scriptures". Pope Zachary's decision in this case was that "if it be proved that he held the said doctrine, a council be held, and Vergilius expelled from the Church " (Catholic Encyclopedia, v. XV, pub. 1912) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15353d.htm.
As for Cosmas Indicopleustes, his life is significant enough to have a full-page Wiki, 14 centuries after his death. I don't think that qualifies as "obscure". In the Sixth Century -- a period of widespread illiteracy-- anyone who wrote a religious thesis still being widely discussed today, should certainly be termed a theologian, though I certainly welcome debate on the subject.

FellGleaming (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

FellGleaming wrote:
"This online source confirms that not only did Boniface believe in a flat earth, but it was official doctrine of the Church at the time."
No it doesn't.
First, "doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth" is infuriatingly vague, but the wording strongly suggests that the doctrine in question (at least as understood by William Turner, the article's author) involved either something more or perhaps something less than the simple assertion that the earth was spherical. Otherwise why not say straight out that Vergilius taught the doctrine that the earth was spherical, rather than indulge in such a vague circumlocution. Here are a few possibilities for what Vergilius's doctrine could have been, based merely on its description as being "in regard to the rotundity of the earth":
  • that the sphericity of the earth is consistent with scripture (without actually asserting it as an established fact);
  • that certain passages of scripture imply that the earth is spherical (an implausible claim, but one which is has nevertheless been adopted by some modern Christian apologists);
  • that since the earth is spherical it is possible (or even likely) that the antipodes are inhabited.
Every one of these possibilities could be appropriately described as a "doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth". As I said above, the only credible sources I have seen (including the one you have cited, in my opinion) consider something like the third of the above three possibilities to be the most likely nature of the doctrine which Boniface was objecting to.
—This is part of a comment by David J Wilson (of 00:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)), which was interrupted by the following:
There are several problems with the above. First of all, phrasing such as "doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth" was not "a vague circumlocution"-- by the standards of the time, it was standard prose form. As to the idea that a spherical earth would be consistent with scripture, yet not established fact, you have to again remember the standard of the 8th century. Scripture was infallible, especially to the clergy (essentially the only literate people alive at the time). If a statement was in contradiction with Scripture, the statement was incorrect...this is basic fact, establshed through countless sources.
As to the idea that "doctrine of rotundity" refers to an inhabitanted antipodes, again that seems like a severe stretch. In the absence of any other evidence to the contrary, Occam's Razor tells us to use the simplest explanation-- the phrase means exactly what it says.
Still further, if the "rotundity of the earth" was well-established at the time, why would an author even use the phrase? If the argument really was simply over inhabited antipodes, why even refer to the question of roundness at all? FellGleaming (talk) 01:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Second, even considering the phrase " ... doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth, which was "contrary to the Scriptures"" in complete isolation, it is not at all clear whether Turner would have intended "rotundity of the earth" or "doctrine" to be the antecedent of the pronoun "which". Strictly speaking, proper grammar would require the former, but the latter is nervertheless still a very common type of error. In the absence of any conflicting information, we should of course assume that the interpretation required by correct grammar is the one Turner most likely intended. But in this case, we do have conflicting information.
Further on in the article we find Turner writing the following:
"Unfortunately we no longer possess the treatise in which Vergilius expounded his doctrine. Two things, however, are certain: first, that there was involved the problem of original sin and the universality of redemption; secondly, that Vergilius succeeded in freeing himself from the charge of teaching a doctrine contrary to Scripture. It is likely that Boniface misunderstood him, taking it for granted, perhaps, that if there are antipodes, the "other race of men" are not descendants of Adam and were not redeemed by Christ. Vergilius, no doubt, had little difficulty in showing that his doctrine did not involve consequences of that kind."
If Turner thought that the sphericity of the earth was the objectionable part of the doctrine which Vergilius had been accused of teaching, then it simply doesn't make any sense for him to turn around and claim that Vergilius could have successfully defended himself by merely showing that the doctrine didn't have consequences of the kind listed in the above quotation.
Thus it seems to me likely that Turner could only have intended the first sentence you have quoted to mean something like the following:
St. Boniface made an accusation that a doctrine taught by Vergilius in connection with the rotundity of the earth was contrary to scripture.
At any rate, I believe your interpretation of the article is mistaken.
Nor is this article the only source we have to rely on. The same Catholic Encyclopedia, in a separate article on the antipodes, gives a more detailed and clearer account of the affair, with a direct quotation from Zachary's letter, describing the precise words of the doctrine for which he would have required Vergilius to be "expelled from the Church"—namely:
"that beneath the earth there was another world and other men, another sun and moon"
In view of this I don't see much evidence here to support the claim that Boniface believed in a flat earth or that this was official doctrine of the Church at the time.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 00:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The point you're missing is the reason *why* a spherical earth was thought to violate scripture at the time. A round earth implied (it was thought) dry land below, identical to
Take a look at the beginning of the article you cited: the passage by St. Augustine, "They fail to notice that, even should it be believed or demonstrated that the world is round or spherical in form, it does not follow [snip]t...". See what this passage tells us? First of all, it clearly demonstrates that belief in a spherical earth wasn't universal at the time ("even SHOULD it be believed..."). But more importantly, it shows us Augustine's attempts to argue that a spherical earth, in itself, does NOT contradict Scripture....because even if the earth was round, it didn't imply dry land below, inhabited by humans. And thus, a spherical earth was consistent with Scripture...a view that eventually became well-established (though it took a great deal of time).FellGleaming (talk) 01:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, consider the final phrase of that article, "It is likely that Boniface misunderstood him, taking it for granted, perhaps, that if there are antipodes, the "other race of men" are not descendants of Adam and were not redeemed by Christ. Vergilius, no doubt, had little difficulty in showing that his doctrine did not involve consequences of that kind." This is saying that Boniface held to the original belief that a doctrine of a "rotund" earth implied antipodes, and that implied another race of men. Whereas Vergilius held to the new belief that antipodes could certainly exist without contradicting Scipture.
In fact, the single word "if" in "if there are antipodes" by itself demonstrates this. After all, a flat earth may or may not have antipodes, but a round earth MUST have them. If there is any question over whether or not antipodes exist, then there's also a question of whether the earth is round.FellGleaming (talk) 01:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
One final point that may not be apparent to contemporary readers. We have a hard time understanding today why anyone would think a spherical earth implies habitation on the far side...after all, the entire backside could be endless ocean, right? Or barren desert? But to the early Medievalist, the earth was created by God, for the purpose of providing home to mankind. It seemed incomprehensible to such men that God would create an entire "second world", below and unreachable from the first...and leave it wholly empty. In their anthropocentric viewpoint, this was outrageous. And this is much of the justification for the tacit linkage between "rotundity" and "inhabited antipodes" in many early MA sources. FellGleaming (talk) 02:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Convenience Break

FellGleaming wrote:
First of all, phrasing such as "doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth" was not "a vague circumlocution" ...
Thank you for the English lesson. Unfortunately, if you think that "doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth" was not vague, or that it was not a circumlocution, then we are speaking different dialects. If you would like to learn more about mine, I refer you to Sir Ernest Gowers's The Complete Plain Words and Henry Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage. At the end of a paragraph which opens with the admonition
"Use words with precise meanings rather than vague ones."
on page 34 of my Pelican paperback edition of The Complete Plain Words, Gowers writes:
"... rack upon rack of simple prepositions are left untouched because before them are kept the blunderbusses of vague phrases such as in relation to, in regard to, in connexion with and in the case of. [italics used in the original]
Also, such uses of "in regard to" as occurs in the expression "doctrine in regard to the rotundity of the earth" is called "periphrasis" by Fowler in the entry on regard in his Modern English Usage. In my dialect, "periphrasis" happens to be a synonym of "circumlocution".
While the these references are now rather ancient (as too am I myself), I can't say I've noticed much change in the meanings of any of the words "vague", "periphrasis", "circumlocution", or in the expression "in regard to", over the 30 or 40 years since my copies of the references were published.
"-- by the standards of the time, it was standard prose form."
Well Fowler certainly thought it was far too common while he was writing Modern English Usage, during the decade and a half immediately following the appearance of Turner's article. Nevertheless, since he strongly deprecated it, I doubt he would have agreed that it was "standard prose form". But even if it were, that would not prevent it from also being either vague or a circumlocution.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 17:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia article you cite was written in 1907, by (most likely) an elderly member of the clergy writing in standard Victorian prose form. I'm sure you realize how quickly standards of prose mutated during the beginning of the 20th century. In any case, whether or not that particular phrase is vague is rather meaningless, and vagueness itself certainly is no reason to presuppose an entirely different meaning for the passage. And, as I said above, the simple appearance of the statement "if there are antipodes" indicates dissent over the shape of the earth...a flat earth may or may not have antipodes, but a spherical earth *must* have them.
In any case, while I agree you've made some interesting points, I (obviously) feel mine are stronger...and I'd like to hear some opinion from the other editors on the subject. Again, there seems to be little dissent over the late MA; the issue seems to center around contemporary thought during the very early MA, a time when (I submit) learned scholars retained knowledge of the earth's sphericity, but many theologians, and a large amount of the uneducated public believed it to be contrary to the teachings of Scripture, and thus incorrect. FellGleaming (talk) 02:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
FullGleaming seems to have misunderstood much of what I wrote above about William Turner's article on Vergilius (or perhaps I have misunderstood his replies). Trying to clarify the matter by responding to all the points of apparent misunderstanding runs the risk of getting this discussion featured on a Lamest discussions page. I may try to clarify some of my main points later, but for the time being, let me try a different tack.
FullGleaming wrote above:
"The point you're missing is the reason *why* a spherical earth was thought to violate scripture at the time."
No. You are presuming facts not in evidence, and one fact in particular which is in dispute —namely, that Boniface and Zachary are known to have considered the sphericity of the earth to be contrary to scripture. Moreover, your more general assertion that "a spherical earth was thought to violate scripture at the time" appears to me to be inconsistent with what you have written elsewhere:
"And I would certainly agree that from Bede onward, it became very hard to find flat earth views expressed among the learned."
on Steve McCluskey's talk page, and:
By the 8th century (the time of Bede), it [i.e. the sphericity of the earth] was again firmly established though.
on the Flat Earth talk page. You would appear not to have noticed that the letter of Pope Zachary's referring to Vergilius was dated 748, some 13 years after Bede's death. On the one hand you say that "a spherical earth was thought to violate scripture at the time" (i.e. of Zachary's letter), but on the other you say that the sphericity of the earth had been "again firmly established" by then. Well, which is it? These statements appear to me to be inconsistent, so please clarify.
Of course, even if the notion that the earth was spherical had been firmly reestablished by the 8th century, it does not follow that Boniface or Zachary necessarily subscribed to it—it is certainly possible that they might have been late hold-outs, fighting a rear-guard action against new-fangled ideas which they found objectionable, but I'm not aware of any evidence at all that they were.
On Steve McCluskey's talk page you also seem to imply here that you have seen other sources which confirm your claims about Boniface, but which you no longer have access to. Since I have never found such a source (excluding some of the rubbish one can always find on the internet), I would be very interested in seeing any. I have convenient access to several good libraries and am willing to look up any sources you can cite. So if you can remember the authors or titles of any of the sources you had in mind, please post the details.
This morning I visited the library of the Australian National University to check a few sources and found none which claimed the dispute to be about the sphericity of the earth. Before reading the following quotations, however, you should be made aware (if you weren't already) of an ambiguity in the word "antipodes" which appears to have caused no end of confusion over this issue. "Antipodes" can mean, among other things, either a place on the earth opposite to another, or the people who dwell there. It is very commonly used in the latter sense by those who have written on the Church's opposition to the existence of "antipodes". In the following quotations it is certain that J.L.E. Dreyer, William Whewell and Jeffrey Burton Russell are using the term "antipodes" to refer to inhabitants on the opposite side of the earth, because they elsewhere explicitly say or imply that that is what they mean. In the quotation from de Morgan the term might be genuinely ambiguous (or it might not, depending on exactly how it was used in the latter half of the 19th century when de Morgan wrote).
"There may be paradox upon paradox [by "paradox" here, de Morgan meant "the isolated opinion of one or of few"]: and there is a good instance in the eighth century of Virgil, an Irishman, Bishop of Salzburg and afterwards Saint, and his quarrels with Boniface, an Englishman, Archbishop of Mentz, also afterwards Saint. All we know about the matter is, that there exists a letter of 748 from Pope Zachary, citing Virgil—then, it seems, at most a simple priest, though the Pope was not sure even of that—to Rome to answer the charge of maintaining that there is another world (mundus) under our earth (terra), with another sun and another moon. Nothing more is known: the letter contains threats in the event of the charge being true; and there history drops the matter."
And a couple of pages further on:
"To me the little information we have seems to indicate—but not with certainty—that Virgil maintained the antipodes: that his ignorant contemporaries travestied his theory into that of an underground cosmos; that the Pope cited him to Rome to explain his system, which, as reported, looked like what all would then have affirmed to be heretical; that he gave satisfactory explanations and was dismissed with honour."
"That it was worth while to be very cautious in speaking of antipodes appears from the ruin which threatened Fergil, an Irish ecclesiastic of the eighth century, better known as Virgilius of Salzburg. ...[skip some biographical details] ... In 748 he came into collision with Boniface, the head of the missionary Churches of Germany, about the validity of a baptism administered by a priest ignorant of Latin, and when Boniface reported this to the Pope (Zacharias) he took the opportunity to complain that Virgil in his lectures had taught that there was "another world and another people under the earth". Zacharias replied that Boniface should call a council and expel Vergil from the Church if he really had taught that. ...[skip speculation about subsequent proceedings]. .. No writings of his are extant, and nothing is known of his doctrines except the words quoted above from the Pope's reply, to which in one edition is added that the other world underneath ours had its own sun and moon. But this is only a marginal improvement made by some transcriber to emphasize the shocking heresy of Virgil, and we cannot doubt that Virgil merely taught the existence of antipodes."
"In Augustin (who flourished A.D. 400) the opinion [i.e. on the existence of "antipodes", in Whewell's sense of inhabitants of the opposite side of the earth] is treated on other grounds; and without denying the globular form of the earth, it is asserted that there are no inhabitants of the opposite side, because no such race is recorded by Scripture among the descendents of Adam. Considerations of the same kind operated in the well-known instance of Virgil, Bishop of Salzburg, in the eighth century. When he was reported to Boniface, Archbishop of Mentz, as holding the existence of Antipodes, the prelate was shocked at the assumption, as it seemed to him, of a world of human beings, out of reach of the conditions of salvation; and an application was made to Pope Zachary for a censure of this dangerous doctrine."
"Vergil of Salzburg, an Irish bishop in eighth-century Austria, was reprimanded for believing in the antipodes. This has led some modern writers to confuse the question of the antipodes with that of the sphericity of the earth, and this became an important element in the Flat Error. In the ancient and medieval world the term "antipodes" may mean lands on the opposite side of the planet or, more commonly, human inhabitants of lands on the other side of the planet. ... [skip discussion of Christian doctrine about antipodeans] ... At any rate, Vergil was reproved (not burnt, as some later historians have said) for believing in antipodeans, not for believing in sphericity."
I wouldn't set much store by either Whewell's or Russell's opinions, since I don't consider them to be reliable sources (note that Russell relates an apparently ahistorical factoid for which there is no evidence—namely that Vergil was reprimanded[1]). Nevertheless, they both agree with all the other sources that the issue was the existence of inhabitants of the antipodes, and not the sphericity of the earth.
To these sources I can also add the Catholic Encyclopedia articles on Antipodes, Geography and the Church, Science and the Church and Salzburg, which all say essentially the same thing. (And, in my opinion, so also does Turner's article on Vergilius).
A copy of Zachary's letter itself is available on-line. So if you can read medieval Latin, you can download it and read it for yourself. It's in Volume 89 of Migne's Patrologia Latina, available here [WARNING: the pdf file is very large, and over a dialup line will take several hours to download]. The part of the letter which deals with Vergilius is in column 946D. The only Latin I learnt as a schoolboy was from the classical period, and is now very rusty anyway, so I can only make out a few phrases here and there in Zachary's letter with some difficulty. However I know enough to recognise that the part of it dealing with Vergilius nowhere mentions anything about the sphericity of the earth. I challenge you to find such a mention anywhere else in it.
Finally, you shouid be made aware of Wikipedia's policy on neutral point of view (NPOV). Even if your interpretation of Turner's article were correct, the NPOV policy requires Wikipedia to represent "fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources"'. Therefore, even if you can obtain consensus that Boniface should be included as at least a possible opponent of the sphericity of the earth, the article must also indicate that, at least according to the preponderance of scholarly opinion, there is no evidence to support that view.
Footnote
1.^ I withdraw this assertion. It is a reasonable inference that Vergilius was reprimanded by Boniface, which is all that Russell may have been referring to.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 14:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
(This comment was originally drafted while Wilson was drafting his, hence it repeats his points) The source for the controversy between Boniface and Virgil is a letter from Pope Zacharias to Boniface dated 1 May 748. It is discussed and translated in M.L.W.Laistner, Thought and Letters in Western Europe, A.D. 500 to 900, 2nd. rev. ed., 1957 (Cornell Univ. Pr.), pp. 184-5. The pope's letter says:
As for the perverse and sinful doctrine which he (Virgil) against God and his own soul has uttered--if it shall be clearly established that he professes belief in another world and other men existing beneath the earth, or in (another) sun and moon there, thou art to hold a council, deprive him of his sacerdotal rank, and expel him from the Church.
Laistner notes that despite this apparent threat, "Virgil survived his adversary by many years. He was highly respected for his probity and learning and ... is mentioned with approval by so orthodox a man as Alcuin." Laistner further maintains, citing the usual sources of Macrobius, Martianus Capella, Isidore, and Bede that "Contrary to what has often been maintained, belief in a flat earth was not the commonly accepted opinion in the early Middle Ages. Belief in the Antipodes [i.e., other men who lived on the opposite side of the earth] was more controversial."
Although I don't have the sources at my fingertips, a recent article attributed Virgil's belief to Irish mythology of little people living under the earth. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
If you want to exercise your Latin, a preferred edition of the original Latin source is on line in the Digital Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Epistolae selectae 1, Die Briefe des Heiligen Bonifatius und Lullus, 80, pp. 178-9. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Garden of Earthly Delights

It is a commonplace in Wikipedia that primary sources, including images, do not stand by themselves but must be supported by reliable scholarly interpretations. This seems to be especially the case for Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights, which is full of unrealistic and symbolic imagery. If there are art-historical sources that support the idea that the exterior panels are intended to present a realistic portrayal of a flat earth inside a spherical container, please quote them.

A further issue is that to the extent that it might be realistic, is it intended as reflecting Bosch's view of the world (extremely doubtful in the 16th c. Netherlands) or is it intended to represent his view of how he thought medieval people saw the world (in that case it's analogous to the Flammarion woodcut).

I'm not an art historian and don't have answers to these questions; I only raise them to point out the problematic nature of the primary source presented here. Without reliable secondary sources to present the present interpretation, this source should be removed. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 04:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] removal of dubious assertions

As an uninvolved 3rd party here, I've read the above discussions, including on the user talk pages, and I see not only no evidence for the Church doctrine theory, but that this is only being argued by one person. So I have removed the dubious assertions. --C S (talk) 09:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Once upon a time, the myth was true...

I'm seeing some attempts by Christian apologists to refer to the "Myth of the Flat Earth" when claiming that flat-Earthism has never been a mainstream belief within the Judeo-Christian tradition: which is not correct. The article does repeatedly state that it covers the medieval period (with one notable lapse: "The popularized version of the misconception that people before the age of exploration believed that Earth was flat persists in the popular imagination, and is even repeated in some widely read textbooks"), but maybe the introduction needs a note indicating that the "myth" refers only to the medieval period, not all of history: and certainly not the time when most of the Old Testament was written, which was before the Greeks figured out that the Earth was a sphere. Perhaps the following:

Note: this phrase refers specifically to claims that flat-Earth beliefs were prevalent during the medieval period. It does not address the issue of flat-Earth beliefs prior to the discovery of the Earth's sphericity by the Greeks, including references to such beliefs within the Bible and other ancient literature[1]. --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)