Template talk:Muslims and controversies

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[edit] Good additions to the new menu

Thanks to whoever made the editions to this Menu for the Criticism topics. Thats what we need - a menu thats suited to the Criticism articles. Please keep improving. --JohnsAr 16:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

lol... --Striver 20:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pov

Gus, this template needs to be NPOV, remember that when adding links. Right now, it is far from NPOV. --Striver 03:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of the Qur'an

Criticism of the Qur'an should be added to this template.--Sefringle 03:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guantánamo vs Guantanamo?

Two links — Guantanamo Bay detention camp and List of Guantánamo Bay detainees use different accent marking for á after t in Guantánamo. I personally prefer accented á, but then it would look like this in current code: [[Guantanamo Bay detention camp|Guántanamo Bay detention camp]] and then it would appear as superfluous to me, unless the original article name were changed and then a redirect added.

The box seems to support both namings, but is this a matter of preference or because the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (from which the camp name is derived) does not have the accented á in its official name? -Mardus 02:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The Beslan school hostage crisis was committed by a fringe rebel group bearing little significance in the Muslim world. It also doesn't evoke any strong feelings or emotion about Islam amongst westerners, or about the west amongst Muslims. Placing this event alongside 9/11 is really an exaggeration.Bless sins 17:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. I believe it represents the essence of Islam in todays world.Prester John 19:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism vs. Examination, Critics vs. Experts

In the interests of avoiding a potential revert war, let's hash out here the question of whether the wording in the template should be "Criticism of Islam" or "Examination of Islam", and whether it should be "Critics of Islam" or "Notable Experts". To me, it seems clear that the former wording is preferable in each case. In the first case, the wording makes up a link to the Criticism of Islam page, which, upon reading it, seems aptly titled. "Examination" is a much vaguer term. In the second case, all of the people listed are clearly critics of Islam. If the section was to be titled "Notable Experts", there are any number of Islamic clerics who it would be appropriate to include. However, including them would seem to shift the focus of the template away from "Muslims and controversies" to the much more general "Islam".

That being said, I'm quite prepared to listen to User:Ultrabias's rationale in favour of the alternate wording. Sarcasticidealist 01:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Every article under the 'Examination' subheading relates to examination of Islam under the broader heading of "Muslims and controversies". Every article under the 'Experts' subheading relates to notable experts on the subject of "Muslims and controversies".
It is clear that, just for example, being fair to Ayaan Hirsi Ali is acknowledging her status as an expert author (on the particular subject of muslims and controversy) and parliamentarian (in the Netherlands). Being fair to Daniel Pipes is acknowledging his status as a public intellectual, columnist, expert author (again, on the same particular subject of muslims and controversy), and academic.
It is also clear that, for example, being fair to Islam and slavery is not boxing it as just 'criticism'. Being fair rather is acknowledging it as examination of Islam that reveals why, in the minds of muslims, it is OK for their co-religionists to be owning, buying and selling enslaved people in Africa today. After all, Muhammad and Ibrahim openly and quite brazenly owned other people .. that's more than criticism, that's just examination and revelation of the criminality that their names (Peace Be Withheld From Them) are bywords for.
The way you would have it is to narrow the perception of certain people and subjects in an anti-NPOV way such as to say that all they are about is being 'critics' (ie. destructive, obsessed with negativities, dumping on others) or that all that some subject is is 'criticism' (ie. bagging or dumping on someone or something). We as a community in Wikipedia will NOT accept that because you are violating our policies (particularly see WP:NPOV). Ultrabias 02:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. I certainly take some of the points you're making (although I'd respectfully point out that it remains to be seen what the Wikipedia community, of which I am also a member, will accept).
As far as I can tell, you're proposing to broaden slightly the categories in this template. For example, all of the people currently listed under critics/experts/scholars/whatever are undeniably critics of Islam (and I think criticism goes well beyond just "bagging or dumping on someone or something", and doesn't necessarily have the negative connotation that I think you may be ascribing to it), in that their view of the religion is over all negative. If we change the heading to something along the lines of "Experts in the area of Islam and controversy", I think we'd need to include notable people who devote their efforts to refuting the claims made by the people currently in that category. Such people aren't there now, because they certainly aren't critics of Islam, but should be included under a heading "Experts in the area of Islam and controversy". Part of my problem with the heading you propose as it now exists is that it would suddenly give the impression that all "experts in the area of Islam and controversy" have a negative view of Islam.
Possible compromise: would you be open to having an "Experts in the area of Islam and controversy" with two sub-categories, say "Critics of Islam" and "Defenders of Islam"? This would give people like Ali and Pipes their due - I certainly agree that they qualify as experts in the area of Islam and controversy - without creating the impression to which I alluded in the last paragraph.
As for the other debate, I certainly prefer "Appraisal" to "Examination", and I thank you for your attempt to try something other than what has been rejected by other users. My major problem with "Appraisal" is that the category currently includes three articles: Criticism of Islam, Criticism of Muhammad, and Criticism of the Qur'an. It seems to me that if you want to argue that boxing the contents of these articles in as "criticism" is unfair, the place to start is by changing the names of those articles (I take no position on such name changes at the moment, because I haven't examined those articles sufficiently in depth to have one). As long as every article in the section is called "Criticism of X", calling the section anything other than "Criticism" seems silly to me. Sarcasticidealist 22:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
i think that labelling people of a certain group (i.e. critics) as "experts" is one-sided and subjective. there is no reason to believe that the critics (nor even many of the defenders) weild any authoritative, academic expertise in the field (this goes for Hirsi Ali, Spencer, Ibn Warraq, and so on). you don't become an expert simply by having your opinion aired by a media outlet. intellectuals is a bit better, though we still need to balance it with individuals involved in apologetics. ITAQALLAH 23:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
It's the critical reception of their published work on the subject of their expertise (ie. Islam and controversy, or alternatively 'Muslims and controversy'), accepted by reputable publishing houses, that founds their status as experts and intellectuals. That should be the end of the matter.Ultrabias 03:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Going by factual accuracies, if is probably best to use the origional titles. Reguardless of what you think of the scholarship of the critics, they are still critics of Islam. Besides, when people see these headings, they will just get confused.--SefringleTalk 04:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I suspect User:Ultrabias is a sock of community banned User:DavidYork71. My apologies in advance if I am wrong but I think I am not. --Merbabu 04:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Two weeks protection while you sort it out. If you come to a consensus let me know. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 05:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Muslims"

There are many, many controversial Muslim figures. Starting from the west, to Islamic parties throught the Muslim world are headed by such men (and women). Should we list all of them. Or is there some criteria for listing such figures.Vice regent 20:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

i agree that there needs to be some sort of criteria for inclusion. unfortunately, "controversy" itself is extremely vague. another problem with the template is that the criticism section includes links to articles which mention not a single word of criticism, and appears to be a selection one may personally consider to be examples of criticism (as opposed to verified examples). ITAQALLAH 15:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Critics

I don't know some of these names (Afshin Ellian and Ahmad Kasravi). I think a secondary source is required in which these people are singled out as most notable critics; are Afshin Ellian and Ahmad Kasravi even critics of Islam? --Be happy!! (talk) 16:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Why my inclusion of Geert Wilders was reverted from the template? 79.183.138.147 (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm adding Afshin Ellian back in, he's clearly a notable critic, did you read the article about him? JACOPLANE • 2008-03-15 21:04