Talk:Muslim culture

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Contents 1 Reason for creating page 2 This page does not reflect any anthropological consensus 3 Rename page ? 4 Islam Template 5 There is only one form of Islamic Marriage

[edit] Reason for creating page

Right now, the Muslim article points to Islam, which is fine. However, both the terms Islamic culture and Muslim culture incorporate a lot besides religion, and deserved a separate article. --Zeeshanhasan 06:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC) you are cool

The author of the above passage as made several major errors in these simple few lines.

First: erred in confusing Islam's tolerance of different practices to mean that they are part of the religion (this is called "bidda" which is totaly unacceptable in Islam).

Second: although there exists Muslim culture (the reality achieved by following the tenants of Islam 100%) it does not mean that the two are inseperable. In fact, cultural practices have possibly led to the decline of Muslim governance in accordance with Qur'an and Sunnah and it can be seen in the legal (and clutural) practices of governments and people around the world today.

Third: to bridge the above two points would necessitate that one reflects on how Islam was perceived at the time of the prophet and how it is perceived today. People accepted Islam in the millions not because they were allowed to do as they willed, but because their perception of those that practiced the religion was a strong positive one. The diversion from the practice of Islam to the association of cultural practices and values as Islamic is bidda. Again, do not confuse tolerance with incorporation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.195.10 (talk) 17:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This page does not reflect any anthropological consensus

This page would not be acceptable to any academic scholar studying Islam, or anthropology, or history, or any social scientific discipline. So far as I know, no scholars use the term "Muslim culture". There are no citations or reference in this article, aside from Marshall Hodgson, who refuses the term, and no actual practices adduced as part of "Muslim culture". I doubt that you'd find anything OTHER than religious practices held in common. That rather undercuts the idea that there's some non-religious content to the term.

I'm considering putting this page up for deletion. Can anyone give me any reasons why I shouldn't? Zora 18:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

So, following Hodgeson, you would rather it be renamed "Islamicate culture" to denote non-religious culture? The fact is that there is a lot about Islamic civilazation which is cultural and not religious. For example the evolution of elements of Islamic architecture (domes, mihrabs and minarets of mosques especially) from pre-Islamic origins. Compare this article to Jewish culture; obviously the stuff there is not part of Judaism as a religion.asssfd

Usually when Muslim culture is used academically, it's in reference to a sub-culture, for example Indian Muslim culture (see http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~nelc/indomuslim.html). --Zeeshanhasan 19:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Islamicate never took off. I think I've seen it in one book aside from Hodgson.

It is also the case that the whole concept of "culture", as something that can be viewed as one entity, is not as widely accepted these days.

You might try reading Clifford Geertz, Islam Observed -- I'm reading it now. He's hard put to come up with any Islamic commonality between Indonesia and Morocco. He was held up to me as an exemplar when I was an anthropology graduate student, and now I think he's all style and no substance. Patricia Crone's Pre-industrial Societies, where she uses the anthropological concept "Great and little traditions", might also be relevant.

I just had a google for Muslim culture and cultural Muslim. I've found two instances where people defined themselves as cultural Muslims. Most anthropology courses talk about Muslim cultures or societies -- in the plural.

I just can't see this article being about anything out there in the real world; it seems to be you defining your identity. Zora 10:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

You are right in that I have been unable to find usages of the isolated term "Muslim culture". I admit that lack of usage of Islamicate or Islamic culture may be grounds to delete the article.

However, this article still seems to me to be a good place to lump together things like Islamic art and architecture, which otherwise don't seem linked as part of a larger tradition. The only other alternative seems to be to start rewriting Islamic studies... groan. --Zeeshanhasan 11:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The article ought to be deleted. It essentially suggests that Arabs, Turks, Persians, Afghans, Kurds, Balochis, Pashtuns, Indian Muslims, Bengalis, Malaysians, Hui people, Albanians, Bosnians, Greek Muslims, Indonesians, Afro-American Nation of Islam followers, and Black Muslims in Africa are all united under a single culture. I suppose we could also throw in the thousands of White Germans that converted to Islam in the year 2006, and say that they are now a part of Islamic "culture?" Clearly this is not the case.. The article really makes very little sense. Further, Islamic art and architecture is heavily influenced by pre-Islamic ideas and thoughts, like the Byzantines, the North Africans and the Persians. No one would refer to Persian architecture as "Zoroastrian" architecture, just like no one refers to the collective category of Romanesque, Gothic, and Byzantine architecture as "Christian" architecture. The term Islamic Culture is meaningless.68.43.58.42 02:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I would agree in the usage (in this case) of Islamic culture. Culture however is a peoples journey through time. Although some would krindge at the term "American Culture" the fact is that it exists. It exists becuase of the amalgamation of the different cultures it has brought into its melting pot.

However, Islamic culture (or Muslim culture) should be recognized with the same discourse. That it's tolerance of the various "cultures" allowed for new ideas. This in itself has meaning. To focus, Islamic culture is the result of practicing Islam to it's full effect. The change it manifests in people and places and governments would be to speak ill of it by not accepting it as a culture. However, do not associate local customs and practices as Islamic, rather as the tolerance of the Islamic culture towards them. What people do is their responsibility, not the religions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.195.10 (talk) 17:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rename page ?

How about renaming this page Islamic culture. I've created a category Islamic culture, but this should not cause too much confusion. Thoughts ? MP (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islam Template

This article is linked from the {{islam}} template, should the template be added? Which is to say is this article "part of a series of articles on Islam"? -Kode 23:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] There is only one form of Islamic Marriage

As-salamu alaikum

Please do not utilize the minority view as if it were mainstream and majority, as has been done with mut'ah. This is outlawed by the final prophet to humanity during his lifetime. No one practiced it after that until people, as they usually do, started following their nafs and desires.

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.41.109.85 (talk) 03:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC).