Talk:Music of Israel

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Music of Israel was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

^{Reviewed version: July 2, 2007}

^{Reviewed version: November 20, 2007}

Archived discussion of /original version

I have just embarked on a major rewrite of This category. This article is rated as Start, and rightly so - it's pretty superficial.

It will take me a few weeks to finish it and post it to the pedia. If anyone else is working on this, I would like to know. If anyone wants to see what I have done so far, you can read it on my page, User:Ravpapa/My Drafts --Ravpapa 16:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Just had a quick look - looks great - dont forget the citations and i reckon when you get this up and posted, we could be getting on for a ga article.Flymeoutofhere 17:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have just finished the rewrite. For user msh210: it includes a section on Hassidic rock, which I think is what you mean by Shiny Shoe Music. Everyone is invited to review, correct, add salient info, and in general behave in the wiki spirit.

In particular, those of you who are Israeli rock afficionados might have what to add on that subject. I also think the category needs sections on The Music of Israeli Arabs and Other Minorities, and perhaps on Children's Songs.

I think we need to go for reassessment of this article. I am aiming for FA, and one of those ridiculous corps tags.

Tnx for your cooperation,

--Ravpapa 16:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow, excellent work. I've only skimmed it so far, but I look forward to reading it completely. In addition to the breadth & depth of the article, you've eliminated all those lists of performers, which I hope can be relegated to a separate page if they are re-created. Nothing in the following comments is intended to detract from my appreciation of the huge and high-quality work that you've done. On the contrary, they show how little I could find to comment on.

The main issue that strikes me is a sense of repetition in the introductory section. I'm referring to the description of the music as being "characteristically Israeli" and "part of building their national identity" (and similar phrases); this occurs in each of the first 3 sentences and is the subject of the 4th paragraph. I realize that this is a major point of the article, but I have a couple of suggestions. How about removing the first sentence? Aside from reducing redundancy, it would conform to the recommendation in WP:MOS#Article_titles. You could incorporate that sentence into the beginning of the "Influences on the Israeli National Style" section, or perhaps another section. I would also suggest changing that sentence to avoid the phrase "120 years" (or at least modify it to something like "more than 120 years"), which is just begging for maintenance as years pass. And then, how about removing the first dozen words from the 2nd paragraph, and combining the 2nd & 3rd paragraphs?

You cite the Second Aliyah as beginning in 1903, while most sites that I've checked--including WP's Second Aliyah and Aliyah pages say 1904. No doubt the cutoff is somewhat arbitrary, but I'd suggest that you reconcile your difference with the other WP pages.

Why the quotation marks in your section title, The "New Hebrew National Style"? If that is a formal, recognized name for that style, then it deserves a citation to be documented as such. Otherwise (e.g., if it's just a phrase that an author used to describe it), you should remove the quotation marks and capitalize only the words The and Hebrew (of course, you can still credit the source with a quotation within the paragraph or with a footnote).

I noticed the adjective "brilliant" to describe Avraham Zvi Idelsohn. It might be true, but would be more appropriate if cited as someone else's opinion rather than appearing to be yours.

I'm curious about the name "Eris San"; I couldn't find it referenced elsewhere, and wonder if this could be Eric San (AKA Kid Koala).

There's an interesting issue regarding the romanizations of two song titles, which you spell Shadmati and BeShadmot Beit Lehem. The Hebrew spelling with vowels in my 45-year-old pocket-size Ben-Yehuda dictionary supports Shedemah (or Shdemah or Sh'demah) and Shedemot (etc.) -- but not Shadmah and Shadmot -- for the words for field and fields, respectively. However, while Web searches returned overwhelmingly more instances of Shedemati (etc.) than of Shadmati, and I've heard recordings of that song -- and pronunciation of its name by Israelis -- that clearly say Shedemati, the Web searches returned hits only for your spelling (BeShadmot) for the latter song. Not only that, but when I got to a sound clip of that song, it was clear that "BeShadmot" was their pronunciation. So, this makes me wonder if Shadmati and Shadmot are less-popular or archaic, but otherwise valid pronunciations. Did your research turn up any info on that?

I plan to do some copyedits & wikilinking, which I hope you'll find non-controversial. Alas, I can't approach your knowledge of the subject, but I hope the edits help the article conform to WP standards. For example, I'll changed some transliterations (to "Chava" Alberstein and Idan "Raichel" to conform to what appear to be the current official or common English forms. (This isn't a comment on your transliteration system otherwise.) Also, I think the article doesn't need as much use of capitalized words and quotation marks, but we'll see what you think.

My 2¢ worth, --rich<Rich Janis 07:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)>

I took your advice about the lead paragraph. I felt all along that the introduction was too long. Axing the first sentence greatly improves it.

Also removed the brilliant and the quote marks around the New Hebrew style. Got carried away.

His name is indeed Eris, not Eric. I believe he is Moroccan - in any case, certainly not Irish!

I am flattered that you think I have a "transliteration system." Consider none of my transliterations to be based on any kind of system or method, and feel free to revise them as logic dictates. Be aware, though, that changing case will change the pronunciation. I believe that "shdema" would become "shadmot" (or perhaps "shedmot") in the smihut form.

Thanks,

--Ravpapa 09:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Ravpapa, Well Done. I will try and help you improve the article further.

Regarding "Eris San"- spelled "Aris San", a Greek singer, born Aristidis Saisanas, spent most of his life in Israel. His music was very influential in the 60s. Sadly no article in English or Hebrew Wikipedia. Try Google search for more information.

Derwig 09:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"shdema" is the singular, "shadmot" the plural, and "shedemati" an archaic form of the 1st person possesive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AllenHansen (talk • contribs) 01:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli Trance

Israeli trance scene is no more mentioned here — isn't worth it? Look at Category:Israeli psychedelic trance musicians, Goa trance, psychedelic trance and so on — Israeli scene in this genre is quite big and worth describing in an article like this one --ssr 12:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Derwig for the addition! --ssr 10:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Factual error

While Baruch HaGever was, indeed, used to praise Baruch Goldstein (as a result of a book by that name written by Michael Ben Chorin, the song itself precedes the massacre by several years. It was first performed by one of the Hassidic Boys Choirs, possibly Miami. Danny 12:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I have corrected the text. --Ravpapa 08:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

I've spotted a number of issues after reading through the article:

HoraIsraeliDance.jpg needs souce information.
Major uncited assertions. Here are a few examples:

"Starting in the early 1920s, Jewish settlers made a conscious effort to create a new Hebrew style of music, a style that would tie them to their earliest Hebrew origins and that would differentiate them from the style of the Jewish diaspora of Eastern Europe, which they viewed as weak."
"While the act was universally condemned by the Israeli establishment, some extremists praised the action." Evidence of this?
"Music is a bellwether of social change." Much too general and probably unciteable; the second sentence is more suited to the article and could be cited.

Prose needs a copyedit by an independent editor. A few examples:

"Since 1990, Israeli groups have multiplied to the hundreds, singing in all modern styles." - sounds awkward; "multipled to the hundreds" is not a common phrase in English.
Multiple WP:DASH issues that need sorting out; emdashes should be used for separating text or replaced with semi-colons.
A number of one or two line paragraphs. These should be merged or expanded for better flow.
Some sentences start with "and" or "by", suggesting there's a full-stop where a comma should be.
"Influences on the Israeli national style" - unclear title. "Influnces" suffices in my opinion. Also, the first paragraph should be a summary of the section; what were the main influences on Israeli music (if they were all equal influences, note that)

WP:MOS issues, including external links throughout the text and improperly formatted References and Further reading sections.
See also section should be cleaned up. The only link that needs to be there is the List of Jewish musicians; the first entry can be a {{dablink}}.

For these reasons, I'm failing this article's GA candidacy. The content's there, it's just style and referencing issues that remain. Try seeking help from the appropriate WikiProjects. If you wish to clarify any points, feel free to contact me at my talk page. CloudNine 11:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

While I don't agree entirely with all the comments you make, I must, with heavy heart, agree with your conclusion that the article is not yet GA level. I admit, I was a tyro at this wikipedia stuff and jumped the gun. Aside from the technical stuff — improperly formatted footnotes, use of the wrong type of dash and so on — the most serious problem is a lack of references.

I am gradually hacking away at these issues, and hope to have the article up to par in a few weeks.

Thanks for the cogent critique. --Ravpapa 05:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ad meah ve'esrim

May I ask who came up with the figure of 120 years for the length of time that "Music of Israel" has been around? What is this based on? The article begins abruptly, with no explanation of why composers and musicians devoted themselves to creating music that would "reflect the emerging national ethos." --Gilabrand 05:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The article dates the beginning of Israeli music as beginning with the first aliya, in 1883. You could, I suppose, argue that Israeli music began before that, as there were Jewish communities in Jerusalem and Safad (Yemenite and Hassidic) that had their own musics prior to that date. You could also argue that Israeli music began in 1948 — that prior to that date music was "Palestinian" and should be treated in a separate article.

In fact, there is universal agreement among scholars who study this subject (Hirschberg, Regev and Seroussi, Borstein and others) that any historical survey of Israeli music should begin with the first Aliya, and this agreement is reflected in the article.

If you have a different view on this, I would be interested in hearing it. (Historical surveys of music of the Jews usually begin with the music in the Bible, but that is another subject.)

As for the beginning of the article — when I was in high school I was taught that essays should begin with a general statement of thesis, and that explanations should follow. I think there is ample supporting evidence in the body of the article of efforts by composers and musicians to create a national musical style - including quotes from debates regarding the national qualities of specific musical figures — to justify the statement. I think that putting those explanations first, before the general statement, would be a confusing and, frankly, bizarre, way of organizing the article.:--Ravpapa 05:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

But perhaps you meant something else. What kind of explanation did you have in mind?

Well, that is precisely the explanation I have in mind. Either write "years of effort" without the 120, or explain that 120 is counting from the First Aliya. I have not had time to sit down and read the whole article, but that spurious sounding "fact" in the lead got my alarm bells ringing. And comparing a high school essay to an encyclopedia is...what shall I say...amusing (although I'm sure your teachers would be gratified that you are putting their teachings into practice). There is a reason this article was not passed, and I hope that my observations, which are untainted by working on it previously, will alert those who wrote it to some of its shortcomings. --Gilabrand 05:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This fits with my previous comment about the phrase "120 years", which I see as being overly precise with decreasing accuracy as time passes. I'd suggest changing it to "over 120 years" or "over a century", to provide the desired sense of scale. A reference to the First Aliyah could fit later in the sentence. Is that additon needed, though? When I read an introduction, I expect a summary, not an explanation of every detail. When I saw the figure of 120 years, I looked at the History section and found the explanation immediately. Of course, I have a lot to learn about WP standards, so I'm all ears (eyes?).

Using "years of effort" without the 120 would be OK only if combined with some other time scale, such as a reference to the First Aliyah by name, date, or both. I dislike "years of effort" without any time scale, which seems weak to me for at least two reasons:

It's almost meaningless, since I can't imagine anyone expecting that a national music culture would be developed in less than two years. Therefore, it becomes redundant, because its meaning can be inferred from the rest of the sentence. Better to omit the phrase than to leave it stripped of its scale.
Some of those readers who would try to guess the unstated number of years would guess a much shorter time span, such as that since 1948, thereby missing an important point of the introduction and the article overall.

--rich<Rich Janis 08:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)>

"more than a century" fits the bill for me perfectly. I have made the change, and also footnoted it, which I hope mollifies Gilabrand. (Pay no attention to the format of the footnote, I have to reformat all the references to Wiki standards.)

Sorry for my somewhat fractious reply to your post, Gila. It's just that I also went to Ramah for a year, and in spite of a generally good and valuable time, I thought the food was dreadful. --Ravpapa 11:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

More than a century is fine. I am mollified (for the time being). As for food at Ramah, I don't think it was anything to write home about but I don't remember it being "dreadful." Which one did you go to?--Gilabrand 21:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Middle eastern music template

How did this article miss getting the Middle Eastern music template? Israel is in the Middle East. Many Israelis came (in the 1940s and 1950s) from North Africa and the Middle Eastern areas adjacent to Israel. They brought musical traditions inflected by the surrounding culture. So, I'm gooing to put the template at the bottom of the page. Dogru144 01:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish and Israeli Music template

The template for Jewish and Israeli Music has an "Israeli Folk" link to Music_of_Israel#National.2FFolk_Music, which was the "National/Folk Music" section of the former version of this article. I was about to change it to link to the Progressive rock and folk section of this new article. That led me to consider changing the link's label from "Israeli Folk" to "Israeli Rock and Folk". However, I think that such a link should not exclude the Early Israeli rock section.

So, here's one suggestion: We subordinate both the "Early Israeli rock" and "Progressive rock and folk" sections to a new section named "rock and folk" (or something similar), which would then be the target of the "Israeli Rock and Folk" link in the Jewish and Israeli Music template. What do you think? An alternative would be to segregate folk from rock, which solves the issue for folk music but then leads to a desire to have a single section (with possible subsections) for rock.

--rich<Rich Janis 00:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)>

[edit] aris san

I watched a documentary about Aris San last night and he definitely deserves an article on Wikipedia. He played a very prominent role in Israeli music the 1960s-70s. Fascinating stuff - and like Elvis, there are people who claim he is not really dead. Anyone up for it?--Gilabrand 04:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of Haim Hefer

I reverted the spelling change (from Haim Hefer to Chaim Hefer), back to Haim Hefer, for two reasons. First, because it was inconsistent, leaving the other instances of his name in this article, and in the Palmach article, still spelled Haim Hefer. Second, when I looked for some validation of either spelling, I found it easier to support Haim Hefer than Chaim Hefer. So, I think some discussion is needed as to how to determine what spelling is preferred by the man himself or by those whom he has authorized to make that decision for him.

My preliminary search results, which of course are more suggestive than definitive, seem to show the spelling "Haim Hefer" as the preferred one. Its support includes the following:

Author of the article, "War and Survival", p. 152 of the book Testament: At the Creation of the State of Israel, by Aaron Levin (ISBN-10: 1885183941).
Mentioned in the book, Israel's Holocaust and the Politics of Nationhood (Cambridge Middle East Studies), by Idith Zertal (ISBN-10: 0521850967), p. 167.
Mentioned in the book, Time Out Film Guide 2007 (Time Out Guides) (ISBN-10:1904978606), p. 608, in "Kazablan"
Mentioned in the book, 1967: Israel, the War, and the Year that Transformed the Middle East, by Tom Segev (Author), Jessica Cohen (Translator) (ISBN-10: 0805070575), p. 100.
Almost all of my varied Google searches showed a preponderance of hits for the "Haim Hefer" spelling. This includes searches limited to site:amazon.com or site:ynetnews.com or along with the two words Yedioth Ahronoth (because he is or was a columnist for them).

However, from another book by Tom Segev, 1967. Israels zweite Geburt, the site http://www.hagalil.com/israel/geschichte/1966-s3.htm shows what appears to be an excerpt with the "Chaim Hefer" spelling. Also, my searches that were limited to site:jafi.org or site:jafi.org.il found a preference for the "Chaim Hefer" spelling.

--rich<Rich Janis 23:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)>

[edit] Transplanted musical traditions from Iraq

Ravpapa, there's an irony to your citation of < http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Iraqi-music >. On the one hand, it's a poor source, since it's only a very old copy of the Music of Iraq Wikipedia article; also, it says "many" where you say "most". So,... better to cite the Wikipedia article itself? On the other hand, if the subsequent changes to the relevant part of that article were solely for antisemitic reasons and if those changes removed correct information, then nationmaster.com is somewhat better because it didn't keep up with those changes. Still, the statement deserves a more worthy reference. If you have a better reference and use it here, one of us could also use it to fix the Music of Iraq article.

The two edits to the Music of Iraq article that removed references to Jewish musicians are:

"20:51, 30 July 2005 210.150.101.185", (note that part of that edit was reverted), and

"23:08, 19 December 2006 68.36.210.242".

Those are really self-destructive edits, because they remove almost all real meaning from the affected paragraph. Thus, I could justify reverting those edits simply on the basis of restoring a coherent paragraph. Doing so would be more worthwhile, though, if you happen to have any references to support the original statements.

--rich<Rich Janis 02:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)>

Geez, you guys are thorough. Dogru (User talk:Dogru144‎) wrote the section on Iraqi music. I thought it was a great addition to the article, and didn't even check the references. I have alerted him to the problem. I will also see if I can find some better sources.

Thanks, --Ravpapa 04:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. I've reverted those destructive edits at the Music of Iraq article and added your references. --rich<Rich Janis 12:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)>

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:LaKahatEtYadiBeYadeh.ogg

Image:LaKahatEtYadiBeYadeh.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I have added an explanation to the image page of the rationale for including this sound bite in the article. It is a bit disconcerting to me that you should be asking this question. The sound bite appears in a section discussing Israeli progressive rock. Both the artist and the composer of the song are mentioned in the section, and I thought that the sound clip was obviously an example of the musical style being discussed. Is it possible that your command bot is not reading the article text where the clip appears? --Ravpapa 17:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PashutVeAmiti.ogg

Image:PashutVeAmiti.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 05:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I have added an explanation to the image summary. Please see comment above.

How do I ensure that this media file is not automatically deleted in another week? --Ravpapa 17:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

There remain several inconsistent word spellings within the article, though all spellings might be perfectly valid for English. However, unless a direct quote or reference, or a different person/object, the spelling differences listed below probably should be made consistent within the article itself. References and translations can differ in spelling, so I'm not sure which of the listed versions below is more "correct" for the article. If an informed editor could check out what needs changing and how, that would be great.

Arik Einstein - Arik Einsten
HaPerah Begani - HaPerach BeGani
Matityahu Shelem - Mattityahu Shelem
Hirschberg (1995) - Hirshberg (1995) (in Notes)
Lahaqot Tsvaiyot - Lahaqot Tsvaiot
Shtu Hadarim - Shtu HaAdarim

Michael Devore 06:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

What an eye! You spot spelling errors like trained pigeons spot substandard pills on drug company assembly lines. Thanks, have fixed all. --Ravpapa 17:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not Einsten, but Einstein. I would avoid those bizarre "q"s - Lehakot Tsva'iyot - is a better transliteration (i.e., not lahakot, but lehakot - this is "smihut").--Gilabrand 17:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Einsten was a typo. Fixed. I used the q in Lahaqot because that is how it is transliterated in Regev. Just wanted to be consistent with my source. BTW, why do you think it's smihut? Tsvaiyot in this context is an adjective. If it was "Lehaqot HaTsava" I think you would be correct. But then, all the grammar I know is from reading the introduction to Even Shoshan 30 years ago - much has slipped from my brain since then. --Ravpapa 17:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

One minute later: oops, looked it up, you are right again. --Ravpapa 17:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The "q" is a hold over from the olden days (think: British Mandate). Nowadays it is reserved for Arabic transliterations. --Gilabrand 18:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

We have been working on correcting some of the problems you identified with the article. However, I believe that some of your comments are not correct. I have commented on them in-line below --Ravpapa 15:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This article needs a lot of work, one of the reasons is that it is long so it will take longer to fix up, but I am holding for a while to see what happens, since it is mainly polish, rather than a lack of content and building. It will need a lot of work though.

The External links section has commentary in it, which is inappropriate

According to Wikipedia:External links#External links section: "If you link to another website, you should give your reader a good summary of the site's contents, and the reasons why this specific website is relevant to the article in question." This is the opposite of what you say.

Further reading also has comments, recommending certain stuff, which is not ideal, and should be bulleted

I could not find anything in WP:MOS about this, but it stands to reason that the same rule applies here as to external links. The object is to help the reader, and I believe the comments do that.

References should be bulleted but are not formatted consistently. Using the template is an easy way to fix all this. Don’t put comments “available online her” , “click here”, the url field in the template will do the thing.
Reference inlines are not consistent. The usage of p and pp styles need to be consistent whatever you use

Not sure what you mean here. "p" is to a one-page reference, "pp" is to more than one page. That is consistent with Chicago Style Manual and McGraw Hill. In Wikipedia:Citing sources I did not find any discussion of this, or any example of a multipage reference.

Book pages also need to be quoted, not just “Sela (2007)” and so forth. In some places there is just a weblink without the author, date, publisher details and so forth.

When a footnote refers to a reference that is only one page long, as in this case, I omit the page number. I believe that is also consistent with Chicago Style.

A few refs are inappropriate. One is another WP article.

I believe the reference you are referring to is to another part of this article, where one sentence refers to a topic that is discussed in detail in a later section. I could include an inline comment like "(see below, section XXX)". Do you think that would be better?

See also section is not really the place to describing stuff, and should not be used for telling us about he wikipedia

I did not see anything in the style manual about this, but I believe that the principle in Wikipedia:External links#External links section should apply here as well.

Inline refs should be directly afted the punctuation: “ajgnakjadg.[15]”

Lead. Some of the short paras should be integrated. “Israeli composers in the classical tradition have their works performed often by leading orchestras worldwide.” Does not appear to be in the main body.
Many invalid fair use images, like Ofra Haza. A CD has been scanned simply to show us how the person looks. CDs are suppposed to only be used when we discuss the cover art on the CD and so forth. There are a few of these

Again, I am forced to disagree with you. I have read Wikipedia:Non-free content carefully, and am also somewhat familiar with US copyright law, and I am convinced that the use of this image in this context is fair use according to the policy. An album cover is copyrighted art that is distributed by the copyright holder for the purpose of promoting the artist and the album. If you were to use the art, for example, to publish a book of album cover art, that would be a violation of the copyright. But the use of an album cover with the artist's image in the context of an encyclopedia article discussing the artist is unquestionably fair use, both by law, and by Wikipedia's guidelines. There is no rule in the guideline that the discussion must be specifically about the artwork on the cover itself. In this particular case, the cover is actually a publicity shot of Ofra Hazah, which has been distributed by the copyright owner on its own.

No, FU is discouraged unless necessary or unless it significantly helps the reader understand the text. In this case it only tell was what Ofra HAza and a few other people look like. also, Since free pics are already plentiful, FU can't really be invoked. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Many sections are unreferenced, eg “Arabic music” section

The sad truth is that there aren't a lot of references on this topic. There is the book by Regev on Israeli Arab popular music, and a rather technical book by Daliah Cohen on Israeli Palestinian variants of maqamat, and newspaper articles about specific artists. The Regev book is cited (twice) as are some of the newspaper articles. I didn't think the Cohen book was germaine to the discussion. There are 11 footnotes in the section. I need to know specifically what you consider to be unreferenced, if I am to fix something.

In many cases, a set of lyrics are cited from a song database, but it seems to stretched into analysis of the style. This may be OR.
Many sections have many small paras which shoul be merged.
in the musical characteristics section, many of the parts are not sourced, or only an example is sourced, leaving open the possibility of OR. Eg, the comments about war influencing music.
Peacock phrases, eg “The Israel Philharmonic Orchestra has been a leading force in Israeli music and culture. It has debuted many works by Israeli composers, and has helped launch the careers of many Israeli musicians.” Concrete examples need in addition to general rhetoric
Music and the military para, seems to have personal commenatary in the first paragraph, since the only ref is to a lyrics page, it seems that conclusions have been drawn from checking out the songs. The French national anthem is “La Marseillaise” and it is POV to describe the French and US anthems as glorifying warfare.
Many paragraphs need to be scanned for original research and peacock terms
It’s the Eurovision Song Contest, not festival. Also, you might want to note that Isreal hosted the ESC after winning it, per the rules. Secondly, this brings the topic of music censorship/control, which does not seem to be discussed, eg, in 2000 the Isreali Broadcastin gAuthority disendorsed the song Samyeakh by Ping Pong because of flying the Syrian flag and other stuff they did.

Thank you for the correction to the name of the song contest. Your information on the song Sameakh is not quite accurate (nor is the Guardian article which is quoted in the Wikipedia article Sameach). The song Sameakh by the group Ping Pong was Israel's nomination for the Eurovision contest in 2000. It was never "disendorsed" by the Israel Broadcasting Authority, though there were individuals in the IBA who objected to the group's appearance with the Israeli and Syrian flags on stage. In fact, the main objection was not to the use of the flag, but to the use of a cucumber as a phallic symbol. The song had caused a controversy even before its selection as the Israeli representative, because the author of the song was not a member of the musicians union - one of the conditions for participation in the contest. The objections were ultimately ignored. The group participated in the contest as originally planned, and took 22nd place in the contest.

The issue of music "censorship" is touched on four times in the course of the article - in Amal Murkus's interview, in the discussion of Muzika Mizrahit, in the temporary boycott of Si Heyman's song "Yorim VeBokhim", and the cancellation of the Beatles' visit to Israel. Your comment suggests that you believe that there is some government control over music, but that is not the case. It is true that while the IBA had a monopoly over broadcasting, it acted as strict arbiter of taste, and slowed the growth of Musika Mizrahit and of Israeli rock music (as discussed in the article). However, since the privatization of the broadcast industry in Israel, that power has dissolved. Today there is no formal government-sanctioned mechanism of censorship, and there has never to my knowledge been in Israel a successful attempt to stifle an arts project by cutting state funding, as occurred in the Mapplethorpe incident in the United States in 1990. The diversity of views expressed in music and in the arts in Israel is at least as wide, if not wider, than that in most western countries.

The lack of sourcing is more pronounced in the late part of the article
Listy sections need to be smoothed and joined together to push thematice concept.
Some pov terms like “superstar” and “colourful character” without source

Regards, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Blnguyen; on two points I'd like some clarification.

In regard to Reference inlines, you say "usage of p and pp styles need to be consistent". Are you referring to, e.g., "Bohlman (1988), p 118" and "Bohlman (1988), pp 117-119"? Aren't they consistent with standard usage of "p" for "page" and "pp" for "pages"? WP guidelines & templates seem to allow many variant cite formats, but at the GA review perhaps it's different. Are you suggesting the use of one abbreviation for both words? I can see that style guides such as APA, and within WP, use a period after each abbreviation. Is that the issue? Would it be better to remove all "p"s and show the numbers bare, as in "Bohlman (1988), 118" and "Bohlman (1988), 117-119"?
I'm confused by your requirement that "Inline refs should be directly afted the punctuation", versus the current status of WP:REF#Where_to_place_ref_tags and WP:FOOT#Where_to_place_ref_tags. Both of those guidelines express a preference for that placement, but also allow the opposite, insisting only that "Each article should be internally consistent." (I'm also aware that there is a huge controversy about this issue. Perhaps here, too, it's different at the GA review level?) Clearly, this article needs internal consistency, but with the article's primary usage of ref tags before punctuation, my question is: Will "ref after punctuation" be required for GA status, or is "ref before punctuation" OK if it's consistent?

Thank you. Rich Janis 00:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC); revised Rich Janis 00:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I should have been more clear. Definitely one p for single pages and pp for multipages. What was inconsistent was that some used dots and some did not, and some used spaces and some did not. But the ps and pps for single and multi are correct. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 23:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I have failed this GA since the rate of work is not high enough for all the problems listed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation location

I haven't read the article too much but I scanned over it and I realized the majority of footnote citations are placed before the commas or periods. Not a major problem, I assume but citations should be placed after punctuation. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

From WP:Footnotes: "Some editors prefer the style of journals such as Nature which place references before punctuation. If an article has evolved using predominantly one style of ref tag placement, the whole article should conform to that style unless there is a consensus for changing it."

This issue, like the issue of where to place the period relative to a quotation mark, has been a source of contention for the entire 30+ years that I have been editing. I have seen tempers rise to the boiling point over these issues. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yitzhak Yedid

Dear 58.105.44.180 - you don't have a username with a talk page, so I cannot address you directly.

I assume that you are Yitzhak Yedid or a close friend of his. Yitzhak Yedid's music is indeed interesting, judging from the snippets I have heard. But your friend is not yet a composer of the stature of those discussed in the article, and the essentially promotional blurb you included in the article was inappropriate.

I have added Yitzhak to the list of composers appearing after the bulleted list in the Classical Music section, with a wikilink to the article you have written about him. Feel free to write panegyrics there to your heart's content - at least until some blue-nosed administrator decides you are overdoing it. --Ravpapa (talk) 10:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I'm that blue-nosed administrator. Yitzhak is interesting and borderline notable, but 58. is over-promoting him here on Wikipedia (claiming to be his student -- see my user talk page). I won't delete the article, 58., but I will continue to remove gross POV violations, or insertions of Mr. Yedid's name in inappropriate places, such as Contemporary classical music, where you keep trying to jam his name into small lists of very famous people. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 15:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested / selected discography?

I have been having a doozy of a time searching for recordings that I could buy via amazon. Seriously, though, keeping it encyclopedic, it would be quite helpful to enter album titles that are available. Dogru144 (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli composers

The sentence "Israeli composers in the classical tradition have their works performed often by leading orchestras worldwide", which appears in the article's introduction, seems to need some substantiation in the body of the article--perhaps in the Classical music section. Rich Janis (talk) 22:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mustardox

Hi, Ravpapa. It strikes me that your edit of 20:07, 25 January 2008 breaks a needed connection between the word Mustardox and its meaning. It also changes text within a quotation. I do like the simpler phrasing, but that can be achieved by excluding "Mustardox" from the quotation. So, I'd suggest one of the following, depending on whether you feel that the word Mustardox is important to the comment:

"The `Mustardox' [More Ultra-Strict and Rigidly Orthodox segment of the national religious community] crowd has a hard time with someone screaming out `Yes, there's the Holy One, blessed be He' at the top of his lungs all of a sudden," says Kobi Sela, religious music critic.
Some of the (ultra-orthodox Jewish) community have "a hard time with someone screaming out `Yes, there's the Holy One, blessed be He' at the top of his lungs all of a sudden," says Kobi Sela, religious music critic.

Another, more laborious, approach would be to add the word Mustardox and its meaning to the Hardal article, and show the quotation here as:

"The `Mustardox' ... crowd has a hard time with someone screaming out `Yes, there's the Holy One, blessed be He' at the top of his lungs all of a sudden," says Kobi Sela, religious music critic.

Rich Janis (talk) 23:06, 27 January 2008

It was not I, but another, who added the English translation "Mustardox" to the quote. I have no qualms at all about axing it - didn't particularly like it in the first place. I suggest we go with your second option.

Thanks for your vigilance.

--Ravpapa (talk) 06:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'll do so, since the acronym doesn't seem central to the subject of the article. BTW, I hadn't meant that you added "Mustardox", only that your removed its spelled-out derivation. Rich Janis (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to the lead

Gila, I don't like your changes to the lead of the article. They pose several problems. First, you write "From the country's earliest days..." But the earliest days of the country date from 1948, yet the article discusses music from the 19th century. Also, you write "...original stylistic elements that would be identifable as 'Israeli.'" But before 1948 there was no "Israeli", though what they were doing grew to become Israeli.

"Music in Israel is not only an expression of creativity, but an important part of national identity." This sentence has two problems. First, I don't know what an expression of creativity is. You can express national identity, you can express sadness or happiness, but how do you express creativity? The second problem is that the statement is contestable. It is a critical analysis of what the music is - an expression of (what?). The original statement was that Israelis view their music as an expression of national identity. Whether Israelis have succeeded in making that expression or not is a subject of debate - that they view their music that way is well supported in the article.

There are a lot of things in the original lead that are missing from the revised version. For example, the original said that Israeli music had roots in Jewish and nonJewish traditions. The new version says it is a combination of the two. The original suggests that Israelis have branched out, created something new, based on something old. The new suggests that Israeli music is merely a combination of the two sources, that there is nothing intrinsically new about it.

The new version deletes "emerging" from the first sentence. This is an important point of the lead - that Israel's music culture, as is its national ethos, is in a state of constant development. We're not talking about French culture or British culture, but the culture of a country that in 10 years could be substantially different from what it is now - and this is reflected in its music. This point is also emphasized by the quotes at the end of the lead section.

I could go on, but enough is enough. As you know, I usually like your edits a lot, so I feel free to be blunt about this. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The trouble with the lead as it was, is that it really said nothing. It was a lot of rhetoric with fancy words like "ethos." I want to see a lead that will pique someone's interest to go on reading. If my current revision is missing some elements - well, then, put them in, but not by reverting back to the original sentence structure, which was not English. My version was not intended to be the 'last word,' but to provoke you (or whoever is writing the article) into giving it more thought. And by the way, I liked your revision of Eliphelet. --Gilabrand (talk) 08:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Another point I would like to make is that the whole article is possibly attempting to bite off more than you (not you, personally) can chew. I'm not so sure you CAN say there is an identifiable "Israeli style." And if someone says there is, who is he/she, what qualifications does he/she have for saying so, and where is the reference? If you call this article the music of Israel, one assumes it is referring to the period of statehood. Since the point is that it began before statehood, from the days of the halutzim, then this needs more definition in the lead (at the moment, it seems to appear in the footnote only). Also, I don't think you can make bombastic statements about what "Israelis" believe regarding their music. And yes, merging different "strands" does create something new. Nothing is ever completely new--Gilabrand (talk) 08:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: "From the country's genesis", as an alternative to "From the country's earliest days". --Rich Janis (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual orientation of Ivri Lider

Here is a message I left for Golden Pony Boy, who has made some fine additions on the subject of pop and rock music:

Thank you for your excellent contributions in the area of Israeli pop and rock - an area where I am personally weak.

My only contention with your edits is your references to the sexual preferences of the Israeli artists. It is Wikipedia policy to include references to a person's sexual preferences only if it is germaine to the subject, and it must be documented. In the case of Dana International, it is certainly relevant, as she herself uses it as a marketing tool. However, I don't believe it is relevant in the case of Ivri Lider. Unless you can show that his homosexuality somehow influences his music, and you can show a reference, I think you'd better take it out. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] We are getting repetitive

I think we are overdoing it. Dana International is mentioned in the article three times, and each time she is described as a transsexual. Ofra Haza is in there twice, Ivri Lider three times, Aviv Gefen three times, Rita three times, Shlomo Artzi three times, Ninet Tayeb twice. I wouldn't object to this, except that the additional references add no additional information.

Can we trim some of these references? --Ravpapa (talk) 16:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

 - lol... you're totally right!!!  i guess it's my mistake as a new wikipedian... 
  I fixed the problem and "trimed" some of the references! :-)  feel free to contact me anytime regaring my adding 
  of information. Golden Pony Boy (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)