Talk:Murugan

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[edit] Move to Murugan

Karthik.raman 08:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC): Why is the article Murukan and not Murugan. The most commonly used spelling is Murugan (just google and compare the hits for Muruga(n) vs. Muruka(n)). I opine that this article be moved to Murugan.

Yes, I too wonder why this article is titled Murukan. As far as I know, Murugan is derived from Tamil word Murugu (முருகு), which means beauty. Murukan (முருக்கன்) could mean something different. Murugan is also the standard pronunciation and popular spelling. -srini 15:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] kRtikA -> kArtikeya

kArtikeya is a vRddhi of kRtika

Examples of vRddhis in saMskRta

kunti -> kaunteya
rAdhA -> rAdheya
Rta -> Arta
veda -> vaidika
purANa -> paurANika

[edit] Gita, Theological relevance

I have not yet added the stanzas in Gita that i quote in the article. consider that as a "TO DO". Also i dont know how to add "notes" and "references" - just added the content alone now. The corresponding refernces and appropriate stanzas from the Gita have to be mentioned here. --Arun bit 00:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Call for reorganization of the content

I think the content for this page was worked out by different people at different times. Some of the content is repeated or redundant. We need to organize them into a coherent flow of sub headings. Any suggestions on how we can reorganize the content? We need to have a natural flow of the contect and also make sure we dont unknowingly get emotional in this article's content --Arun bit 07:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images moved

New Murugan images added to the page. The raja raviverma's image in the front was not clear, and the Murugan face was not clearly shown. Hence, I moved to the inner part of the article and put a more clearer image of Murugan in the front.

Balajiviswanathan

I think they might remove your images some time later using a bot if they feel it is not compatible with this copyright stuff :(. --Arun bit 07:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

As per the brief discussion here , should Skanda (which is just a stub) be merged into the Murugan article ? Abecedare 01:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a tricky question as he has many regional names. I have not looked closely at how the pages crosslink now, but it seems to me some sort of review is needed overall. Skanda or Kartikeya are the names used most often in Puranic sources, I think, but I would time to do some reference checking. One of the theories about these names is that they reflect a process of gradually assimilation of multiple regional deities into one overarching figure as part of a process of historical assimilation of broader geographical areas. I have at least one reference book just on varieties of his forms and can check that. I request that we not act too hastily until we have a good sense of what's going on with the variations. The specific answer to the question of merging Skanda into Murugan is that I would not support it. If anything the Murugan article should be merged with either Skanda or Kartikeya, but I expect that will meet with resistance due to regional issues. Note that the article is almost completely unsourced. It is in need of a complete rewrite. Currently I cannot help here much because of limited time. Buddhipriya 02:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear: are you saying that the two articles should not be merged, or that they should be merged but under the Skanda name ?
In my (real-life) experience I have seen the name Murugan used much more often than Skanda, and therefore I proposed that Skanda be merged into Murugan and not the other way around; but it is quite possible that my personal impression is incorrect. So perhaps we can look up some sources for contemporary usage and let other editors weigh in. Anyway, there is no urgency in this matter and we can easily wait for 5-7 days (or even longer if needed!) and see what opinions are voiced and if a consensus develops. Regards. Abecedare 02:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure yet if the articles should be merged. I think probably yes, but the issue is that you are really dealing with a composite deity here, and the age strata of the materials and regional variations are the key. I have two books which cover this deity in some detail. One is titled Karttikeya: The Son of Shiva (by Shakti M. Gupta) and the other is titled Ganesha-Karttikeya (by Ashish Khokar and S. Saraswati). I believe those names reflect the oldest traditional name for one variant of the deity. In Puranic times, the Skanda Purana is well-known and I am not sure about use of the other names in Puranic literature. In modern times, the regional deity Murgan has been assimilated and worship of the other forms has died down in the north. If you try to rename the Murugan article you may encounter a great deal of regional resistance. On the other hand, people who want to know about the stories of the other deities are unlikely to search for them under Murugan, and it can be argued that Murugan is a distinct form. Another comparison might be to Rudra and Shiva. Are they the same? Age strata suggest not, at least in the sense that Shiva evolved so much from Rudra that you almost need two articles on them, as is the case now. So to be honest I am not sure what to do. Personally I think of Murugan as a regional form and was surprised to find that there is no article explaining the older variants. Buddhipriya 02:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Having done a bit more research I now lean against merging the articles. The following references suggest to me that the best approach would be to have two separate articles, one for the older form using either Skanda or Kartikeya as the primary name (I lean toward Skanda, but either would probably do), and a second article for the regional deity Murugan who later was identifed with Skanda. This would be consistent with the two articles for Rudra and Shiva where a similar age stratification of materials is present.
  • Shakti Gupta directly addresses the naming problem in the Preface to her book Karttikeya: The Son of Shiva, which is a detailed study of this deity. She writes: "The names and epithets of Karttikeya are many. They also differ from area to area. For instance, the deity is popular in South India by the name Subrahmanya and Murugan, and by the name Khandoba in Maharashtra, while in North India it is more popular by the name Skanda, Kumara, or Karttikeya. I have tried to use the popular name of the deity -- popular in a particular area while I am writing about its cult in that area, and also the name under which it is mentioned in a particular text." (Gupta, Preface.) Gupta handles Murugan via a chapter on his cult in particular, treating him as a regional deity. (Gupta, pp. 12-15). Gupta gives similar handling in a different chapter to Khandoba, who is worshipped in Maharashtra (Gupta, pp. 52-56)
  • I checked the indexes of a few general sources to see how name variants were being used in indexes. Here are some results. In the index to volume one (covering earliest sources, Vedas, Epics, Puranas, and Tantras) Maurice Winternitz History of Indian Literature lists the name Skanda 3 times, with a separate listing for the Skanda Purana, while Kartikkeya is mentioned twice, and Murugan is not listed. (Volume 2 of Winternitz is devoted to Buddhist and Jain sources only, so is not obviously relevant to this.) In Stella Kramrisch's The Presence of Śiva there is a glossary of names, and the primary name cited is Skanda, with a note that an alternate name is Kartikeya; the name Murugan is not in the Kramrisch glossary. In the index to Gavin Flood's An Introduction to Hinduism the name Skanda appears six times, Kartikeya is not listed, and Murukan (Murugan) is listed four times. Flood distinguishes between these dieties as follows: "The South Indian god Murugan, the young man identified with the god of war, Skanda." (Flood, p. 29.) He further remarks on this saying that "indigenous Tamil deities became identified and absorbed into Aryan, vedic deities....the important deity Murukan, with Siva's son, Skanda, the god of war." (Flood, p. 129). The fact that Murukan was an independent deity in south India who later became identified with Skanda is confirmed by Axel Michaels, p. 252, Hinduism: Past and Present. The Glossary for C. Narasimhan's The Mahabharata gives Skanda as the primary entry, and a listing for Kartikeya saying simply that "it is another name for Skanda' (pp. 224, 230); the name Murugan is not listed.
  • A name check done for purposes of how to refer to this deity in the Ganesha article is repeated here to keep the thread available for review. "One way to quickly quantify relevance to Ganesha is to check the indexes for some of the standard works on Ganesha. In Brown the name Murugan appears once, Kartika twice, and Skanda four times. Thapan's index lists Murugan once, Kartikeya 8 times, including an extended discussion of him in relation to Ganesha that covers three pages, and Skanda is mentioned 12 times, including two extended sections on his relation with Ganesha that cover a total of 8 pages. Thapan notes other name variants in passing such as Kumara and others. Courtright's index mentions Murugan twice, Kartikeya once (and refers the reader to the main listing for Skanda), and Skanda is listed in the index five times, with extended material covering nine pages. Courtright lists the Skanda Purana four times, with detailed discussions covering 4 pages. In Grimes Murugan is not mentioned in the index, Kartikeya is mentioned seven times, and Skanda is not mentioned, but the Skanda Purana is mentioned twice in the index. Buddhipriya 06:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


  • What should be the criteria for the first name? Should it be historical name, the earliest based on evidence? Should it be the popular name that most people relate to "now" (as in present)?? Should it be based on the content available on a wiki page??? - --Arun bit 07:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be no particular convention for naming mythological characters, I guess the problem of multiple names in mythology never occurred to anyone. I think the article ought to be what people relate to in the present if it's a deity who's still worshipped. --The Raven's Apprentice(Profile|PokéNav|Trainer Card) 14:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please merge if possible

Please merge some or all of the following content. It was created at Sendhilkumar, but appears to refer to the same Hindu god, so I made that page a redirect. I don't know enough about the subject to determine what material (if any) is worth merging in. This is not my material, Kessavsendhil created it.

Former article begins here---

Sendhil kumar/ kumaran is the name of Tamil god Muruga/Saravanan. In Hindu there is an habit of naming one person with several names. Same applied to Lord muruga, when he appeared in his most beautiful form. Also said that he was beautiful after possessing the saffron mark over his forehead. Red(saffron) on a young boy's forehead - Sendhura , kumaran ---- thus derives Sendhil kumaran.

some of his creations are found in the following links.

http://kessavsendhil.phpnet.us/

ALSO, Please include information about Skandha Shashti Kavacham, Skandha Guru Kavacham, the meanings of these or at least a link from where the user could trace these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.32.86 (talk) 17:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC) Former article ends here---

Fourohfour 18:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This should be called Kaumaram

Kaumaram was one of the established sects of Hinduism. It was one of the Shanmathas along with Saivam, Vaishnavam, Saktham, Ganaptyam, and Souryam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanmata

http://www.kaumaram.com/articles/kaumaram_e.html

The site in Tamil is devoted to Murugan.

Sankarrukku 18:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Sankar Viswanathan

[edit] Clean up of article

I have done some cleaning up by merging sections and rearrangement. Inappropriate links have been removed. --Sankarrukku 01:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Literature on Lord Murugan

We should try to include links to articles that could provide details & meaning of various literature available in praise of Lord Murugan - especially the Skandha Sashti Kavacham & Skandha Guru Kavacham. The former uses Thamizh of a very specific period and it would be difficult to comprehend the meaning completely for any 'current-Tamil' speaking person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.32.86 (talk) 17:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Article

I have recentyl created an article entitled Kartikay. Kartikay is a distinct deity and is not identical to Murugan. I would like to see if the community feels it welcome to merge Kartikay content on this page with the Kartikay article Emishi (talk) 17:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Kartikay

Kartikay is an alternative spelling of Kartikkeya, identified with Murugan. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kartikay

Kartikay is a definately distinct deity. Murugan is a Tamil deity. Kartikay is a more widely revered deity. See hhtp://www.sanatansociety.org. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.67.194 (talk) 10:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On proposal to merge with Murugan

  • Comment Concerning the merge proposal, I think it needs to be confirmed that they are infact one in the same with no varying perspective on each naming/personality. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 05:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, they are not the same. Murugan is a chthonic deity of the South, assimilated to (i.e. "identified with") Karttikeya[*] who is part of the Skanda/Kumara legends in various Puranas (themselves the result of prior assimilations); just as, say, Venkateshwara was assimilated to Vishnu. Over time, there was cross-over and mixing of separate legends, but there is no hope of sorting this out without reliable sources. [*](enough of this "Kartikay" nonsense -- who came up with that?) rudra (talk) 09:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Skanda, Murugan and Karttikeya can be three different personalities. For example, on page 148 of Gavin Flood's Introdution to Hinduism, he states that, "Within the developing Hindu traditions we can see the process of Brahamanization or Sanskritization, whereby the great brahmanical traditions of vedic social values, vedic ritual forms and Sanskrit learning absorbs local popular traditions of ritual and ideology. We have seen this, for exapmle, in the cult of Vithoba who becomes identified with Vishnu and of Murugan who becomes identified with Skanda." Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)