Talk:Murdo MacDonald-Bayne

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Well now there you go a little explanation can go a long way , cant it. Far better than trying to be a cyber cop, shooting from the hip with no explanation given! Now this problem would never have come about or will ever come back again if the "self promotion" for personal, ego and business reasons remain off the page. There are many world wide that find this quite unexceptable. So is there any way to just stick to posting the life of "Murdo Macdonald-Bayne" without the "look at me bits" or is it exceptable for all of us to promote our business's here as well? I know of others who have websites, who publish and retail his books etc that would love their "look at me too" bits posted to this page as well and are just itching to do so. I would have thought though that you (WikipediA) would have some issues with this kind of posting?? Let us hope we can resolve this issue in all good faith and not just favor one person here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.155.136 (talk) 21:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recurring copyright violation

An anon keeps adding text written in 1985 by Paul Troxler, which can be found here. I and others keep reverting. Much more and I'll ask for semi-protection, which will block editing by anon IPs. Studerby 02:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"Recurring copyright violation" is not so. The text refered to is on many other web sites not just the stated Seaside church. Do you know that permission to use has not been granted? I for one was in direct contact with Paul over some years receiving from him documents for my own use & study. Please think before you post as slander or untruths can cause legal problems. Wiki is not a place for self promotion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.155.136 (talk) 09:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The fact that other people might have gotten permission to republish something doesn't mean that Wikipedia has that permission. Furthermore, you might notice that the edit page has some text at the bottom that reads:

Content that violates any copyright will be deleted.

If you click on the copyright link, it will take you to a page that explains a lot about Wikipedia policy regarding copyright, most importantly, it lists the legal terms under which content in Wikipedia is licensed to others. Unless you personally have the legal right to grant such permissions to Wikipedia to reuse Mr. Troxler's words (either you are him, his legal heir who has inherited the copyright, or his rights have been legally assigned to you in writing), Wikipedia legally can't use his words in Wikipedia content. If you do have such legal rights and wish to grant Wikipedia permission to use his words, then Wikipedia needs to have that permission on file. There's a page about getting such permissions and getting them filed with the Wikipedia office here.

The problem is Mr. Troxler's words are his, and we don't know any different until a permission has been filed. If you take those same facts and ideas, and use your own words, then there is no problem of copyright violation. The text still needs to be formatted to Wikipedia standards (which other editors will help with) and other critical Wikipedia policies such as WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV must absolutely be complied with. Studerby 14:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Linking

Please note that the below is copied from Wikipedia Policy:

External Links That Are To Be Avoided

4. Links mainly intended to promote a website. (eg. One person repeatedly providing linked pages to their own personal commercial site.)

7. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content.

11. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups) or USENET.

Advertising and conflicts of interest Main articles: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:Spam

Due to the rising prominence of Wikipedia and the amount of extra traffic it can bring a site, there is a great temptation to use Wikipedia to advertise or promote sites. This includes both commercial and non-commercial sites. You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked.Mindfulll (talk) 21:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Self-promotion

Conflict of interest often presents itself in the form of self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links, personal or semi-personal photos, or other material that appears to promote the private or commercial interests of the editor, or their associates.

Examples of these types of material include:

1. Links that appear to promote products by pointing to obscure or not particularly relevant commercial sites (commercial links).

2. Links that appear to promote otherwise obscure individuals by pointing to their personal pages.Mindfulll (talk) 21:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Let it be known that www.murdomacdonald-bayne.com

is NOT MYSTICA nor run by "MYSTICA". The only link we have with "MYSTCA" is we send folk to buy books from that site as it is local & can save on post for buyers.

We have now, because of this, come under attack by those who it seems, would want us to send buyers to another publisher located on the other side of the world in Canada. However postage to this side of the world from Canada is far to costly & We will NOT bow to any bully.

Our site is very well used world wide having many members and this may have caused upset for others with similar web sites but the tactics being used to remove us are not of high standard.

We do not favor one publisher over another and have in the past sent people from that side of the world to the Canada site for books. We request that those using these strong arm tactics to just leave us alone as we do you.

We do not sell books at this web site only refer. And as the Canada publisher has not requested a link on our site for their books none is there.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahimsanz (talk • contribs) 18:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• • • PLEASE NOTE that there are a number of items of information on my web site that have been put there with permission of the original authors or their direct family members. As with all web sites there are links to other sites HOWEVER this does not mean we are run by them. We are not. I repeat we will not be bullied by any publisher or any other web site with issues. Maybe its just time to come clean and admit you want me out of the way. WHY? You seem to need to know my name BUT you don’t sign yours here, strange that don’t you think.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahimsanz (talk • contribs)

I could always just print my own books in China I suppose and flood the market with cut price books and cd/tapes etc. But that will only be as a last resort if I am not left in peace. I have no issues with anyone but hey don’t push me into a corner.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahimsanz (talk • contribs)

[edit] Feeder Link by an unverifiable source needs to be removed

MIRROR LINK BY AN UNKNOWN UNVERIFIABLE SOURCE

RE: Wikipedia External Links for webpage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murdo_MacDonald-Bayne

In External Links: This is the copy of closely identical text on two similar websites (see [A] and [B] ) in which one webmaster is identified and the other is not identified and therefore the unknown source is considered to be a mirror site of one and the same webmaster, i.e. Mystica in NZ, which is the known source.

NOTE: Since only ONE source is permitted per link in External Links of Wikipedia, the unknown and unidentified site of NZ/Aeotearoa is regarded as a “Feeder Link” to the site of Mystica and as such is NOT acceptable and thus should be deleted.

A] The unknown, not verifiable (webmaster) source with direct e-mail link to Mystica in NZ:

http://www.murdomacdonald-bayne.com/

Welcome friends to the New Zealand/Aotearoa Murdo MacDonald-Bayne website.

Dr Murdo MacDonald-Bayne was born in Scotland in 1887. During his lifetime he travelled throughout the world healing thousands of people of all kinds of diseases and taught the Truth of the Law of Being to many thousands more. Murdo MacDonald-Bayne was fondly referred to as “Dr. Mac” by his students who often spoke of seeing him overshadowed by a higher being during his lectures.

It is said that he journeyed several times into India and Tibet where he spent long periods (recounted in “Beyond the Himalayas” and it's sequel “The Yoga of the Christ”) in the company of true Masters of the Tibetan Himalayas. There his powers to heal were strengthened and he received greater enlightenment for his mission to reveal those profound teachings to the outside world. The developed spiritual power and wisdom he acquired is reflected in the writings of his first books, “The Higher Power You Can Use” and “I Am the Life”.

After establishing spiritual centres in several countries, Murdo MacDonald-Bayne lived in New Zealand/Aotearoa and Australia during the early 1940s and by 1944 he settled in South Africa where he continued to heal and give lectures twice a week, some of which are recorded. He also produced during this period (Heal Yourself, Spiritual & Mental Healing, What is Mine is Thine I & II, How to Relax and Revitalise Yourself, Your Life Renewed Every Day). During a visit to England he passed over suddenly in London, February 1955.

B] The known, verifiable source:

http://www.mystica.co.nz/catalogue_drm_bio.html

. . . . Dr. MacDonald-Bayne was born in Scotland in 1887. During his lifetime he travelled throughout the world healing thousands of people of all kinds of diseases and taught the Truth of the Law of Being to many thousands more. He was fondly referred to as "Dr. Mac" by his students who often spoke of seeing him overshadowed by a higher being during his lectures.

It is said that he journeyed several times into India and Tibet where he spent long periods (recounted in "Beyond the Himalayas" and it's sequel "The Yoga of the Christ") in the company of true Masters of the Tibetan Himalayas. There his powers to heal were strengthened and he received greater enlightenment for his mission to reveal those profound teachings to the outside world. The developed spiritual power and wisdom he acquired is reflected in the writings of his first books, "The Higher Power You Can Use" and "I Am the Life".

After establishing spiritual centres in several countries, Dr. Mac lived in New Zealand and Australia during the early 1940s and by 1944 he settled in South Africa where he continued to heal and give lectures twice a week, some of which are recorded. He also produced during this period (Heal Yourself, Spiritual & Mental Healing, What is Mine is Thine I & II, How to Relax and Revitalise Yourself, Your Life Renewed Every Day). During a visit to England he passed over suddenly in London, February 1955.

--Mmb2006 (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• • • PLEASE NOTE that there are a number of items of information on my web site that have been put there with permission of the original authors or their direct family members. As with all web sites there are links to other sites HOWEVER this does not mean we are run by them. We are not. I repeat we will not be bullied by any publisher or any other web site with issues. Maybe its just time to come clean and admit you want me out of the way. WHY? You seem to need to know my name BUT you don’t sign yours here, strange that don’t you think.

I could always just print my own books in China I suppose and flood the market with cut price books and cd/tapes etc. But that will only be as a last resort if I am not left in peace. I have no issues with anyone but hey don’t push me into a corner. Ahimsa —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahimsanz (talk • contribs) 01:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Come on Lora/Lorraine or whatever you call youself these days,stand up and just say why you are behaving this way. Tell the good people just who you are, your website, your motive and just why you are so angry. Again and I say this real s l o w now "NO WE ARE NOT MYSTICA" Not much else to say now. All I can put it down to is sour grapes and the need to weed my site out because it is popular.....AGAIN I AD I WILL NOT BE BULLIED BY ANY PUBLISHER to be under their control.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahimsanz (talk • contribs)

The unknown, not verifiable (webmaster) source with direct e-mail link to Mystica in NZ:

http://www.murdomacdonald-bayne.com/

Not verifiable, no name or address, the unidentified site of NZ/Aeotearoa is regarded as a “Feeder Link” to the site of Mystica and as such is NOT acceptable and thus should be deleted.

Obviously the unverifiable webmaster (no name or address on website) denies any connection to Mystica yet directly follows this denial with a subsequent warning statement about "his" books and "his" CDs, all of which points to the Mystica owner who is referring to his books and CDs in reference to the website on Wikipedia of the author Murdo MacDonald-Bayne. I can only wonder at the lack of openness. Such contradiction sounds rather odd, don't you think?

To repeat the Wikipedia Policy:

Please note that the below is copied from Wikipedia Policy:

External Links That Are To Be Avoided

4. Links mainly intended to promote a website. (eg. One person repeatedly providing linked pages to their own personal commercial site.)

--Mmb2006 (talk) 00:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmb2006 talks plain drivel!! Take a look at yourself and your issues. Read and reread the section on Self Promotion until you get it. What you are reacting strongly over is deeply rooted within yourself.

Who must have more links than the next person? Who is building more pages than the next person? Who has more personal photos than the next person? Who is crying look at me?

Until the EGO with its self interest is behind the person then they are "going nowhere," only creating more lessons to be mastered.

--Mindfulll (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mindfulll (talk • contribs) 22:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Link Removed, as per reference above. It is considered a Mystica "feeder link" set up by an unverifiable, unknown webmaster and links are directed to Mystica website. Please verify source when convenient to be truthful on the matter. Thank you.

--Mmb2006 (talk) 04:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Is a this a case of a PUBLISHER removing websites with links to other publishers? Is this ethical or moral? It is certainly not Spiritual. I have just removed your website so to the feeder one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.92.61.138 (talk) 05:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External links and edit warring

I came here after a post to the external links guideline talk page indicated there was a problem. After reading the comments here I have also added this to the conflicts of interest noticeboard to encourage other established editors to add their voices too.

On the links front - we have some policies and guidelines that are applicable. Our external links guideline is the most applicable. One major thing to note - editors should not add links to sites they are connected with directly to the article. Such links should be suggested here on the talk page and independent editors should assess their suitability.

To me, none of the links in question actually seem to be appropriate for the external links section according to our guidelines.

• mystica.co.nz and macdonaldbayne.homestead.com exist primarily to sell the author's books and do not contain significantly more material than the article itself.
• murdomacdonald-bayne.com also seems to be selling services though less directly. However it seems to be more of a fan site by a follower than a serious treatment of his work, and the lack of provenance is a further mark against it. I could find little to indicate it has a significant reputation for providing reliable information (though this subject area is completely unfamiliar to me so if there is some evidence of reputation it would be great if someone could point me to it). This would seem to indicate is shouldn't be included.

Other opinions on how these links do or do not add to the encyclopedic nature of the article are encouraged, but please lets leave out accusations about motive for the moment and instead concentrate on discussing what will or won't improve the page. -- SiobhanHansa 11:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I've semi protected the page because of edit warring. work it out here.--Hu12 (talk) 14:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I support removing the EL section from the article, as the currently proposed links appear to fail WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided, as well as WP:NOT#ADVERTISING. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

• The solution is quite easy for us at http://www.murdomacdonald-bayne.com just leave us alone & stop the bullying. We are here to promote the teachings of Dr Mac NOTHING ELSE. If people want to read his books we direct them to a seller/s. We have no reason to fight with anyone at all but we will not be treated badly by others EVER. Leave us in peace and we are more than happy to return the favor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahimsanz (talk • contribs) 19:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Promotion your own website on Wikipedia, regardless of who you link to, is against our policies and guidelines. Please do not treat Wikipedia badly by editing in contravention of those policies. This discussion needs to be about if and how any of these links help improve the article. If you aren't prepared to address this point you should not be editing here. -- SiobhanHansa 19:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Accounts spamming murdomacdonald-bayne.com

Ahimsanz (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • what links to user page • count COIBot • search an, ani, cn, an3 • user page logs • x-wiki • status • LinkWatcher search • Google)
Mindfulll (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • what links to user page • count COIBot • search an, ani, cn, an3 • user page logs • x-wiki • status • LinkWatcher search • Google)
190.173.218.86 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • search an, ani, cn, an3 • LinkWatcher search || WHOIS • RDNS • traceroute • CompleteWhois • ippages.com • robtex.com • tor • Google • AboutUs)
118.92.61.138 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • search an, ani, cn, an3 • LinkWatcher search || WHOIS • RDNS • traceroute • CompleteWhois • ippages.com • robtex.com • tor • Google • AboutUs)
218.101.96.16 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • search an, ani, cn, an3 • LinkWatcher search || WHOIS • RDNS • traceroute • CompleteWhois • ippages.com • robtex.com • tor • Google • AboutUs)
218.101.92.138 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • search an, ani, cn, an3 • LinkWatcher search || WHOIS • RDNS • traceroute • CompleteWhois • ippages.com • robtex.com • tor • Google • AboutUs)
203.109.206.131 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • search an, ani, cn, an3 • LinkWatcher search || WHOIS • RDNS • traceroute • CompleteWhois • ippages.com • robtex.com • tor • Google • AboutUs)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - Content that does not belong in an encyclopedia is excluded.. Wikipedia is NOT a "repository of links" or a "vehicle for advertising" . Equally Wikipedia is not a place to to promote your site. Thank you for your time.--Hu12 (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment via WP:COIN. I agree with SiobhanHansa. Beyond conflict of interest, there are plenty of other reasons why "We are here to promote the teachings of Dr Mac NOTHING ELSE ... Leave us in peace and we are more than happy to return the favor" is unacceptable. "Wikipedia is not a soapbox" and the policy against ownership of articles are just two.

I care less about the link than the current lack of sourcing: apart from a couple of citations for his military achievements, I don't see any of the reliable third-party published sources needed for verifiability. I've tried the Times archive and the ODNB: no luck. There are a number of books by him, and material on a handful of personal websites, but this isn't enough. If those who run these sites want to do something useful within Wikipedia's rules, providing such sources would be a good start. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 21:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked Mmb2006 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) (24hours) for excessive spamming(macdonaldbayne.homestead.com and macdonaldbayne.zoomshare.com) of this page, ([1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38]) and long term edit warring --Hu12 (talk) 13:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So what is the consensus

So am I right in reading the above discussion to mean:

1. We have a consensus to remove all the external links?
2. The article should be pruned down to verified information only, and efforts made to find better sources?

-- SiobhanHansa 17:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, we need sources not External links. Imagine if all the above effort was put towards improving the article?...hmmm--Hu12 (talk) 19:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I certainly agree with the removal of the external links you listed above, which are primarily designed to sell merchandise. Proper referencing would also be good, but I wonder about the notability of the entire subject. Euryalus (talk) 04:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

In comment to Euryalus regards "notablity of the entire subject:"

Notability:American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This no·ta·bil·i·ty (nō'tə-bĭl'ĭ-tē) Pronunciation Key n. pl. no·ta·bil·i·ties

1. The state or quality of being eminent or worthy of notice.

2. A prominent or notable person.

Perhaps Euryalus you should read further, maybe one or two of Murdo's books as you are displaying your lack of knowledge. Try Divine Healing of Mind and Body or even a google of the good Drs name. You may change your mind! Please explain exactly what qualifies a link.There is ample information to disqualify a link.

Thanks for your input. A wooden spoon was much needed!

--Mindfulll (talk) 05:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. In Wikipedia, notability for biographical articles is determined according to WP:BIO. The key notability requirement is that the person has been the subject of published secondary-sourced material which is reliable, intellectually independent and independent of the subject. This obviously does not include a person's self-published works or to primary sources (such as a diary or self-published works by the article subject).

A problem this article has is it doesn't explain why this person is notable. The first section outlines his birth and name. The second outlines his military service which while commendable is not more or less distinguished than that of thousands of others. The third states that he founded a college in Manchester, but does not explain how the college is important, what it achieved, why it was more significant than any other educational establishment. The section goes on to state that MacDonald-Bayne gave lectures and wrote a variety of materials, but once again doesn't explain why this is more significant than any other author and evangelist. There is a notability gudeline for books and other published works which states that to be considered a notable work they must themselves have been the subejct of other independent works, won awards, been part of a official national curriculum or similar. I have found no evidnce that any of these are true in the case of MacDonald-Bayne's works. If you have sources showing otherwise please share them on this page.

You also asked what qualifies for inclusion as an external link. The guideline for inclusion can be found here, and expressly recommends avoiding link to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. A site whose principal purpose is to sell copies of MacDonald-Bayne's works is a link to be avoided, especially where it does not otherwise provide any information not already found in the article.

I hope this answers your questions. In passing could I also add a polite reminder to comment on contributions and not contributors. I'm not offended by your post above but am assuming the wooden spoon reference is supposed to be an insult. If so, there's no need for it but am happy to let it be. Euryalus (talk) 05:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The wooden spoon reference refers to authority, that is Wikipedia, that is yourself and others, coming along to assist in a case that is difficult to sort,( as in a parent, small child, and a wooden spoon, you could say tongue in cheek.) There is no reference or inference to yourself personally.

The rest of your comment will take a little longer to digest and address.

Thanks and Regards.

--Mindfulll (talk) 07:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is a great opportunity for Mmb2006 who is the 'authority' on Murdo to help us out with the hard facts and references. Awaiting some input.

--Mindfulll (talk) 07:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Sorry, I got the wrong end of the spoon there. Euryalus (talk) 08:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)